Why do people hate Barry Allen?

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

If they had used Barry in JL would you have said this same thing in regards to Jay?

It comes off to me that 90% of this argument is "Wally replaced Barry/Barry replaced Wally." Barry came along in 1956. Flash of Two Worlds wasn't until 1961. For 5 years Barry straight up replaced Jay. He did the same thing Wally supposedly did. And for the "Wally was wiped from existence" people, Jay wasn't even published for 10 years before Flash of Two Worlds brought him back. That's longer than Wally was gone.

This argument really agitates me. One of my first comics was when Kyle Rayner became Green Lantern. I've been dealing with this literally the entire time I've been reading comics from both the Green Lantern fanbase and now it's infecting the Flash fanbase.

This is very different......

Barry DID NOT replace Jay Garrick and Jay was gone and discontinued before Barry debuted. If anything... Barry’s the reason Jay is still a character that exists because DC may never have revisited him if a new Flash legacy didn’t start in the 60’s. Meanwhile Barry died in the same story Wally took up the Flash mantle. And that story itself was a massive reboot so the very next issue DC could have reverted back to Barry as Flash if they wanted. It was very clear that Wally’s time as Flash came at the exclusion of Barry. That’s a very clear distinction. Barry as Flash, brought Jay back to prominence, along with launching the multi verse. Wally as Flash pushed Barry out of the story.

And yeah I do see the same arguments with both 2nd generation silver age characters. But it’s similar in the GL continuity. Hal needed to be gone (actually worse he was villanized) for Kyle to exist. And I’ve seen Kyle fans say things on here like “well Emerald Twilight was cool concept and made for interesting story” which they never would say if Kyle turned evil and killed all his friends so someone new could come up.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Yup, and it still makes me shake my head that the writer of Flash Rebirth , Geoff Johns, still says Wally West is his favorite character. I do not get why he would willingly write the story that demotes him. (I know Barry came back in Final Crisis but that was originally supposed to be an alternate Earth version until Geoff & Dan told him to use the original to make way for Rebirth)

Because Flash wasn’t in good shape for a few years before Barry came back. The end of the Wally run and the Bart stuff was largely panned and Flash was not really doing to well. The last time that happened, they replaced the Flash.

I actually don’t doubt John’s intentions. He brought Hal back and was still able to get Kyle in books even often being the lead of GLC and playing prominent roles in SCW and War of the Green Lanterns. And Kyle got his own book New 52.

I think he thought he could do that with Wally and Barry.

[Hol]

Because Flash wasn’t in good shape for a few years before Barry came back. The end of the Wally run and the Bart stuff was largely panned and Flash was not really doing to well. The last time that happened, they replaced the Flash.

I actually don’t doubt John’s intentions. He brought Hal back and was still able to get Kyle in books even often being the lead of GLC and playing prominent roles in SCW and War of the Green Lanterns. And Kyle got his own book New 52.

I think he thought he could do that with Wally and Barry.

I do not know what Geoff was thinking...I think it was clear from day one that Barry Allens return was always going to be a bad thing for Wally West. Tons of fans said it, Mark Waid said it in a Word Balloon podcast when DCU #0 came out. So I don't get why you'd want to do that to your favorite character. Geoff had MUCH more juice at DC at this point in his career than he did when we first started writing the Flash. If he wanted to fix the Wally book he could have pitched something and relaunched it. But no he took the gig to Flash Rebirth and the rest is history.

[Agent Z]

Wonder Woman actually introduced the multiverse to DC but no one cares about it as much because it didn't bridge two eras. GA WW was one of the most experimental comics ever.

She did? What comic did she do this?

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I do not know what Geoff was thinking...I think it was clear from day one that Barry Allens return was always going to be a bad thing for Wally West. Tons of fans said it, Mark Waid said it in a Word Balloon podcast when DCU #0 came out. So I don't get why you'd want to do that to your favorite character. Geoff had MUCH more juice at DC at this point in his career than he did when we first started writing the Flash. If he wanted to fix the Wally book he could have pitched something and relaunched it. But no he took the gig to Flash Rebirth and the rest is history.

Again John’s brought Hal back not to long ago and still have Kyle a prominent spot in the GL line that would extend past New 52.

He had more sway when he brought Barry back than he did when Hal came back.

[Hol]

Again John’s brought Hal back not to long ago and still have Kyle a prominent spot in the GL line that would extend past New 52.

He had more sway when he brought Barry back than he did when Hal came back.

Agreed. He did have more sway then...that is my point. He didn't have to take the Flash Rebirth gig. He wanted to...which I don't get if your favorite character is Wally West. I remember when DCU#0 first came out and they were talking about it online. My stomach sank. I knew what was going to happen to Wally.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

She did? What comic did she do this?

There was a golden age single issue story where Wonder Woman went into a parallel twin mirror universe that was identical with different character names. It was the first time the concept of another universe appeared. But it really wasn’t what the DC multiverse was based off.

Flash of Two World’s happened 8 years later and that concept of alternate world’s that had different continuities got different era’s of teams to meet up and fight bad guys started

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Agreed. He did have more sway then...that is my point. He didn't have to take the Flash Rebirth gig. He wanted to...which I don't get if your favorite character is Wally West. I remember when DCU#0 first came out and they were talking about it online. My stomach sank. I knew what was going to happen to Wally.

Because I think he genuinely thought he had enough power to completely establish Barry and Wally as different style Flash’s that could co exist and make it the standard. Don’t forget at the same time in DC there were multiple GL’s and they were on the precipice of having two Batman’s.

Didio stopped it and then the reboot happened. John’s ended up being taken off Flash to do Justice League and lead the reboot

[Dboi2001]

If they had used Barry in JL would you have said this same thing in regards to Jay?

It comes off to me that 90% of this argument is "Wally replaced Barry/Barry replaced Wally." Barry came along in 1956. Flash of Two Worlds wasn't until 1961. For 5 years Barry straight up replaced Jay. He did the same thing Wally supposedly did. And for the "Wally was wiped from existence" people, Jay wasn't even published for 10 years before Flash of Two Worlds brought him back. That's longer than Wally was gone.

This argument really agitates me. One of my first comics was when Kyle Rayner became Green Lantern. I've been dealing with this literally the entire time I've been reading comics from both the Green Lantern fanbase and now it's infecting the Flash fanbase.

In Barry’s origin Jay was just a comic book character that he used to base his name and look after. So no I don’t think it’s the same. Barry was the first flash of earth 1 Pre crisis and didn’t know Jay was a real person until Flash of two earths. However Barry’s legacy is vital to Wally

[Hol]

Because I think he genuinely thought he had enough power to completely establish Barry and Wally as different style Flash’s that could co exist and make it the standard. Don’t forget at the same time in DC there were multiple GL’s and they were on the precipice of having two Batman’s.

Didio stopped it and then the reboot happened. John’s ended up being taken off Flash to do Justice League and lead the reboot

You may be right I don't know. Neither of us are in his head. I just don't get it. I can usually understand someones reasoning even if I do not agree with it but I cannot see how he would think that. GL is a very different animal IMO where multiple books and leads work. There is only room for one main Flash IMO.

But oh well. My regular comics buying days are over. I just check in from time to time. I had 21 years of great Flash stories with Wallly. From 11 years old to when I was 32. The best times to read comics. The new stuff just isn't for me these days.

This ALLL being said I would love to read a great Barry Allen comic. I hope one day we get one.

[Dboi2001]

Yes, we just don't like admitting it.

The I guess Superman is also boring? That is the thing. The silver age had a huge influence on comics that everything after it was built off of it so yes they may come of as generic but it set the precedent

[Hol]

I would like to see Mark Waid and Chris Samnee write a Barry Allen comic and take those STUPID New 52 lines out of the costume. Give him his old costume back.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

You may be right I don't know. Neither of us are in his head. I just don't get it. I can usually understand someones reasoning even if I do not agree with it but I cannot see how he would think that. GL is a very different animal IMO where multiple books and leads work. There is only room for one main Flash IMO.

But oh well. My regular comics buying days are over. I just check in from time to time. I had 21 years of great Flash stories with Wallly. From 11 years old to when I was 32. The best times to read comics. The new stuff just isn't for me these days.

This ALLL being said I would love to read a great Barry Allen comic. I hope one day we get one.

I think it’s a valid attempt though. Waid always felt that Wally existed at the pleasure of Barry being gone. If John’s could thread the needle and make it work... he basically guaranteed the threat of Barry being brought back some day didn’t kill Wally

[Dboi2001]

You were asking why do people hate Barry. I was telling the reason. Obviously you don’t hate Barry so you are not one of them.
BTW, do you like the concept of speed force? The frenemy relationship between Flash and the Rogue? The Reverse Flashes as sick fanboys? Those all came from Wally’s run.

The speedforce when it isn't used as a get out of jail free card sure if not a bit needless but the other two no not really. I literally ranted about Thawne being turned into a Barry Allen stan

[Hol]

I think it’s a valid attempt though. Waid always felt that Wally existed at the pleasure of Barry being gone. If John’s could thread the needle and make it work... he basically guaranteed the threat of Barry being brought back some day didn’t kill Wally

I feel like he should have just bought him back in his first run and had him been a supporting character in Wallys book.

Oh well. At this point I would just like great Flash stories. Hopefully one day. I am really curious to see who the new writer will be.