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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    If there is a Reverse Flash that is a toxic stan for Barry is probably Hunter Zolomon after Flash Wars .

    As for Barry, i don't hate him, i don't really hate fictional characthers, is a waste of time for me. I strongly dislike how DC editorial handled his return and pretty much made every possible effort to destroy Wally in order to prop Barry.

    Some people migth compare this to what it was to Barry after Crisis, but is not even close, Barry was put on a pedestal after his death and declared a saint, Wally lost everything and almost died because of Barry actions. Now, i'm not gonna say that what happened Post-Crisis wise was perfect for Barry fans, after all, his fans would rather have monthly adventures with their favorite characther than seeing him ocasionally in flashback tales, besides the fact than the last years of Barry weren't great quality wise, i can understand their sadness of not having him anymore, but after this last 10 years of his return and the way that DC handled it, had made almost incapable of caring to whatever happens to Barry, this is on you DC, live with it.

    So in essence, i put the blame more on DC than Barry at the end, but sadly it still affected my enjoyment of him to an extent, doesn't that Willianson's take lasted way too long.
    Last edited by TheCape; 08-13-2020 at 04:21 PM.
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  2. #17
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Dick was about to become Nightwing. Why couldn't Wally take on a new name instead of tossed away and replaced.
    Because being The Flash became too integral to Wally's character. Even Barry writers like Johns and Williamons acknowledge this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    And Barry wasn’t tossed aside for Wally and Wally didn’t take ideas from Barry?
    Wally more expanded and developed on stuff introduced with Barry, on-top of establishing his own stuff (which Barry then re-appropriated).

  3. #18
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    It’s definitely more a case of DC comics editorial screwing up than anything against Barry as a character - what personal spite Wally fans have towards Barry is much more *just* misplaced anger towards editorial than towards him, unlike, say, how some Star Wars fans hate Kylo Ren because of what the character *is* as well.

    Wally did get screwed over by DC editorial, and multiple times as well, in the transition back to Barry, in a way Barry didn’t get screwed over for Wally... but I’d like to add that I think Barry didn’t exactly benefit from screwing over Wally the way that some of DC’s decisions were probably meant to.

    In a way, the New 52 just hit Barry less hard than it hit Wally. A *lot* less, considering Wally’s problems at editorial’s hands, but Barry went from being the star of a Flash family book written by Geoff Johns trying to pull a Green Lantern style resurgence to being stuck in what kind of became a strictly “junior varsity” slate in terms of prioritization... and suffered some mediocre and frustrating runs that didn’t exactly justify switching out Wally for Barry instead.

    The TV show did Barry some good.

    But stuff like Didio and co. clearly smashing the “NOPE!” button on Wally’s part of Rebirth and then subjecting him to Heroes In Crisis just made t clear that DC editorial seemed a bit paranoid about Wally even getting some of his mojo back.
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  4. #19
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    In TROBA Thawne was retconned to be a fan of the Flash and even changed his face to look like Barry and he went back in time to meet his idol but became evil when he saw in the Flash museum that Barry kills him and he goes insane. He says things to Wally like “You’ll never live up to Barry’s legacy” and things in that sense

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    In TROBA Thawne was retconned to be a fan of the Flash and even changed his face to look like Barry and he went back in time to meet his idol but became evil when he saw in the Flash museum that Barry kills him and he goes insane. He says things to Wally like “You’ll never live up to Barry’s legacy” and things in that sense
    Yes. This is true. What's your point? It's an all time great comic. It fleshes out Thawne's character in a way that, to this day, makes him one of the best villains in DC's history. It's a masterstroke for both Thawne and Wally's characterization.

  6. #21
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    Making Thawne a Flash fanboy who goes crazy because he somehow never found out the Reverse Flash was named Eobart Thawne is fleshing out his character? Even then it set a bad precedent for Thawne dying and coming back over and over again. Keep in mind fans were also clamoring for Barry to return so imagine if Rebirth had “The return of Wally West” only to reveal its Zolomon who hated Barry for replacing Wally. Actually I don’t need to use hypotheticals because that was Paradox

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    Making Thawne a Flash fanboy who goes crazy because he somehow never found out the Reverse Flash was named Eobart Thawne is fleshing out his character? Even then it set a bad precedent for Thawne dying and coming back over and over again. Keep in mind fans were also clamoring for Barry to return so imagine if Rebirth had “The return of Wally West” only to reveal its Zolomon who hated Barry for replacing Wally. Actually I don’t need to use hypotheticals because that was Paradox
    So, like, the story loses its' edge and purpose of you just recreate the scenario.

    And it's fleshing out his character by attaching a real motive to his prior actions. Thawne's motivations in the Silver and Bronze Age were largely boiled down to transparent, uninspired reasons typical of villains in that era. He did the things because he was a bad guy who hated The Flash because he just happens to hate The Flash. But what would drive a man to pretend to be The Flash, attempt to steal his wife, name himself after the man he hates so much? What causes Thawne to use his absurd, cosmic time travelling powers to hunt down and ruin Barry's life in these myriad ways? Why not do anything else with your god like powers?

    An obsession, a desperate one at that. Flipping Thawne's motive to hate that stemmed from an obsessive, unhealthy love fleshes out the 20 years of fleshless, generic villain antics Thawne had been a part of. Also, the "bad precedent" for Thawne dying and coming back? Williamson's most well regarded arc is literally the arc where Thawne comes back.

    I assume you mean fans were clamoring for Wally to return. But, here's the thing. Wally is Barry's successor. Barry is Wally's predecessor. A story like the one you're talking about doesn't freaking work because Barry didn't take up his role in the shadow of his deceased, amazing mentor. We backtracked to Barry, not moved forward. So a story about Barry dealing with Wally's greatest foe and overcoming him to earn his name as The Flash literally has no value because there's no character beat to it.

    You throw out some really absurd false equivalencies. Barry replacing Wally was not and is not even close to the same as Wally replacing Barry. Even IF you ignore the absolute, absurd differences in how it was handled, it's still fundamentally different because of the relationship Wally and Barry have. One naturally follows the other. But we were given the inversion of that.

    You seem to have a classic case of missing the forest for the trees. You'll list things that happened but ignore the context and the narrative of why they happened.
    Last edited by Dred; 08-13-2020 at 07:48 PM.

  8. #23
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    Cuz, I grew up with Wally; then John's sidelined him

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    I don’t get why so many people hate barry allen so much or want Wally West to take over again. It just makes less sense considering people act like Wally never borrowed elements from Barry yet criticize Barry whenever writers borrow Wally elements
    I am not aware of a high intensity hate wave roaring toward Barry. I liked him well enough until "the FLASH REBIRTH" popped up. After that, Sifighter 's post perfectly captures what baffled me. I get that Johns LOVES Barry Allen and Green Lantern Hal Jordan but in both cases things were handled quite poorly. I think the whole Barry-Is-The-Speed-Force thing was especially eyeroll inducing in its TryHardness.

    And it didn't even have to be. There are a million ways to achieve making Barry Flash again without the oddly antagonistic vibe (they could have even borrowed a page from Crisis and have Barry in the Speed Force the way Luthor et. al were in a pocket dimension since his disappearance and have Wally, Linda, and Kids trade places to tear them in safety until they got a handle on their powers or whatever).

    But the way it was done was kind of @$$.

    Making matters worse was the whole Flashpoin/52 thing. Not only was there a perfectly good ELSEWORLDS label in which to tell stories about altered versions of the heroes that they did not use, but they took this so-called fresh start and merely stick Kyle and Wally in Hal and Barry drag and thought no one would notice.

    Um...why?

    So yeah I don't hate Barry; I just didn't like the way it was done and especially the way in which they kind of just kept the personality as Wally but called him Barry.
    Last edited by Stanlos; 08-13-2020 at 08:03 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    Sifighter hit it on the head. To an entire generation Wally was the Flash. We saw years and years of Wally trying to live up to Barry and finally surpassing his mentor. Wally was the better Flash with way more character. Then Barry was brought back and Wally was sidelined. Then after Flashpoint he was completely erased all together and replaced with a new version. To many of us seeing Barry come back and replace a character we had been reading about for decades was bad enough, but then to reboot him as a totally different character was just a slap in the face. If you look at the TV show and especially the Justice League movie they base so much of both characters on Wally way more than Barry. It is like even DC knows Wally is better than Barry but they are to committed to keeping him around now to change it.
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    Yeah that pretty much sums it up. If you were just swap out a name what was the point?

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    And Barry wasn’t tossed aside for Wally and Wally didn’t take ideas from Barry?
    Um... COIE and the stories that followed where Barry was heroically honoured, remembered, and written as an inspiration do not in any way equate to being tossed aside.

    It is also feels like night and day when you compare how Wally was treated upon Barry's rebirth.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    So, like, the story loses its' edge and purpose of you just recreate the scenario.

    And it's fleshing out his character by attaching a real motive to his prior actions. Thawne's motivations in the Silver and Bronze Age were largely boiled down to transparent, uninspired reasons typical of villains in that era. He did the things because he was a bad guy who hated The Flash because he just happens to hate The Flash. But what would drive a man to pretend to be The Flash, attempt to steal his wife, name himself after the man he hates so much? What causes Thawne to use his absurd, cosmic time travelling powers to hunt down and ruin Barry's life in these myriad ways? Why not do anything else with your god like powers?

    An obsession, a desperate one at that. Flipping Thawne's motive to hate that stemmed from an obsessive, unhealthy love fleshes out the 20 years of fleshless, generic villain antics Thawne had been a part of. Also, the "bad precedent" for Thawne dying and coming back? Williamson's most well regarded arc is literally the arc where Thawne comes back.

    I assume you mean fans were clamoring for Wally to return. But, here's the thing. Wally is Barry's successor. Barry is Wally's predecessor. A story like the one you're talking about doesn't freaking work because Barry didn't take up his role in the shadow of his deceased, amazing mentor. We backtracked to Barry, not moved forward. So a story about Barry dealing with Wally's greatest foe and overcoming him to earn his name as The Flash literally has no value because there's no character beat to it.

    You throw out some really absurd false equivalencies. Barry replacing Wally was not and is not even close to the same as Wally replacing Barry. Even IF you ignore the absolute, absurd differences in how it was handled, it's still fundamentally different because of the relationship Wally and Barry have. One naturally follows the other. But we were given the inversion of that.

    You seem to have a classic case of missing the forest for the trees. You'll list things that happened but ignore the context and the narrative of why they happened.

    I don't think Dboi2001 is missing the forest. He doesn't care if it is a good story or not (and he has no obligation to care) .

    Fans that want Barry to return will still be offended that they lie with "Return of Barry Allen". They will probably be as offended as the "Return of Wally West" would offend Wally fans

    You maybe think they shouldn't complaint that Barry died, so Wally could become the Flash, because you think it is progression. However, you can't say other people how they should feel.
    Last edited by Konja7; 08-13-2020 at 08:29 PM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    I don't think Dboi2001 is missing the forest. He doesn't care if it is a good story or not (and he has no obligation to care) .

    Fans that want Barry to return will still be offended that they lie with "Return of Barry Allen". They will probably be as offended as the "Return of Wally West" would offend Wally fans.

    You maybe think they shouldn't complaint that Barry died, so Wally could become the Flash, because you think it is progression. However, you can't say other people how they should feel.
    I have no issue with people who wanted more Barry and would've preferred if Barry never lost the mantle. I disagree with them as much as is humanly possible, but that's just a matter of taste.

    But don't pretend like how they moved on from Barry and how they moved on from Wally are the same. That's demonstrably false. When you're wondering why there is hatred that often finds itself latching onto Barry, it's in how it happened.

    When I say he is missing the forest for the trees I am not saying he has to like the stories. I'm saying he doesn't seem to understand the narrative, only a list of events. How much he likes it or not isn't relevant to what I said. He said that ROBA didn't flesh out Thawne's character when it did. That's a fundamental fact. Liking or disliking the new, fleshed out version of the character is a matter of taste. But that the character became more fleshed out is not a matter of taste. I only mentioned taste when referring to Williamson's run with Thawne's return. But maybe he's the rare Barry fan who...hates Williamson's run, I guess? Whatever.
    Last edited by Dred; 08-13-2020 at 08:31 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    Sifighter hit it on the head. To an entire generation Wally was the Flash. We saw years and years of Wally trying to live up to Barry and finally surpassing his mentor. Wally was the better Flash with way more character. Then Barry was brought back and Wally was sidelined. Then after Flashpoint he was completely erased all together and replaced with a new version. To many of us seeing Barry come back and replace a character we had been reading about for decades was bad enough, but then to reboot him as a totally different character was just a slap in the face. If you look at the TV show and especially the Justice League movie they base so much of both characters on Wally way more than Barry. It is like even DC knows Wally is better than Barry but they are to committed to keeping him around now to change it.
    Unfortunately the flip side to that coin is that for all the Wally generation of fans to get up enjoy that, all the Barry fans had to endure their character going away for many years. So Wally fans can’t really complain as much for going through the same thing.

    Also, while Wally is definitely more of template for the JL film, the tb show feels more like a modern young Barry would be then what Wally was

  15. #30
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    Barry is unworthy of his rank. He doesn't have memorable stories or interesting characterizations. The character who kept the Flash popular, made the Flash family grow and thrive for more than 20 years is Wally West.

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