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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Unfortunately the flip side to that coin is that for all the Wally generation of fans to get up enjoy that, all the Barry fans had to endure their character going away for many years. So Wally fans can’t really complain as much for going through the same thing.
    It is not the same thing. Please stop pretending that it was the same thing. The differences have been spelled out in abundance. That it was so freaking different is where the majority of the rage comes from.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    And it's fleshing out his character by attaching a real motive to his prior actions. Thawne's motivations in the Silver and Bronze Age were largely boiled down to transparent, uninspired reasons typical of villains in that era. He did the things because he was a bad guy who hated The Flash because he just happens to hate The Flash. But what would drive a man to pretend to be The Flash, attempt to steal his wife, name himself after the man he hates so much? What causes Thawne to use his absurd, cosmic time travelling powers to hunt down and ruin Barry's life in these myriad ways?
    So when DC fleshed out Barry's backstory people complained but this was a good thing. Thawne had grown bored of his life and loved Flash's power and became jealous of his life. Pretty straight forward

    An obsession, a desperate one at that. Flipping Thawne's motive to hate that stemmed from an obsessive, unhealthy love fleshes out the 20 years of fleshless, generic villain antics Thawne had been a part of. Also, the "bad precedent" for Thawne dying and coming back? Williamson's most well regarded arc is literally the arc where Thawne comes back.
    Williamson's run has been boring and repetitive. Running Scarred was above average to the entire run but nothing amazing compared. Just because a villain doesn't have a big backstory or sympathetic backstory doesn't make them bad

    I assume you mean fans were clamoring for Wally to return. But, here's the thing. Wally is Barry's successor. Barry is Wally's predecessor. A story like the one you're talking about doesn't freaking work because Barry didn't take up his role in the shadow of his deceased, amazing mentor. We backtracked to Barry, not moved forward. So a story about Barry dealing with Wally's greatest foe and overcoming him to earn his name as The Flash literally has no value because there's no character beat to it.
    I'm sorry I was unclear here is what I meant

    At the time in 1993 many Flash fans still wanted Barry to come back. Wally had gained some traction since he had a rocky beginning as the Flash but many were still pining Barry. What I was saying that at the time fans wanted Barry to make some return. So Waid and co had a story where Barry Allen returned after 7 years being absent and was marketed as such. They hinted throughout the book that Barry was acting strange and the big reveal was it was Eobart Thawne who was now a crazy Flash obsessed fanboy making comments that sound like a Barry fan IRL about how Wally was a terrible replacement. You think Barry Allen fans appreciated waiting 7 years to see Barry return to DC proper only to be a farce? My point is there is nothing Wally fans have not suffered that Barry fans hadn't suffered as well

    So do you think any major changes that happens should be permanent? Like if Bruce Wayne dies he is gone forever and someone else becomes Batman. Like if Wally died and was replaced by Barry or Bart or whoever would you be fine with Wally being gone for good like Barry seemingly was?

    You throw out some really absurd false equivalencies. Barry replacing Wally was not and is not even close to the same as Wally replacing Barry. Even IF you ignore the absolute, absurd differences in how it was handled, it's still fundamentally different because of the relationship Wally and Barry have. One naturally follows the other. But we were given the inversion of that.
    So we can't have anything Barry related? Like I still see people saying the CW show and movie should've had Wally despite Barry being instrumental to him becoming the Flash

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    It is not the same thing. Please stop pretending that it was the same thing. The differences have been spelled out in abundance. That it was so freaking different is where the majority of the rage comes from.
    Maybe you think the character was treated better because he was remembered as a great hero (a memory that was usually used to develop Wally). That does not change that the character was killed, so someone else could replace him.

    Not that I think many Wally fans will be happy if he is killed so Bart becomes the Flash, even if Wally is remembered as a big hero.
    Last edited by Konja7; 08-13-2020 at 08:53 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    I have no issue with people who wanted more Barry and would've preferred if Barry never lost the mantle. I disagree with them as much as is humanly possible, but that's just a matter of taste.

    But don't pretend like how they moved on from Barry and how they moved on from Wally are the same. That's demonstrably false. When you're wondering why there is hatred that often finds itself latching onto Barry, it's in how it happened.

    When I say he is missing the forest for the trees I am not saying he has to like the stories. I'm saying he doesn't seem to understand the narrative, only a list of events. How much he likes it or not isn't relevant to what I said. He said that ROBA didn't flesh out Thawne's character when it did. That's a fundamental fact. Liking or disliking the new, fleshed out version of the character is a matter of taste. But that the character became more fleshed out is not a matter of taste. I only mentioned taste when referring to Williamson's run with Thawne's return. But maybe he's the rare Barry fan who...hates Williamson's run, I guess? Whatever.
    I think the confusing thing is what does the story “Return of Barry Allen” have to do with it? Like it was less than a third of the way into Wally’s run, and while it made Eobard Thawne more of a Barry fanboy, Thawne was always more tied to Barry anyways and that was like the last time he was used for like years until Rogue War where he made a appearance along with Barry. In fact there was never a Thawne story where Barry wasn’t part of it and was the Flash aside from ROBA which was all about Barry’s legacy anyways. If anything that story retroactively made Wally the first person to fight Barry’s main villain and jump start his career.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    So when DC fleshed out Barry's backstory people complained but this was a good thing. Thawne had grown bored of his life and loved Flash's power and became jealous of his life. Pretty straight forward



    Williamson's run has been boring and repetitive. Running Scarred was above average to the entire run but nothing amazing compared. Just because a villain doesn't have a big backstory or sympathetic backstory doesn't make them bad



    I'm sorry I was unclear here is what I meant

    At the time in 1993 many Flash fans still wanted Barry to come back. Wally had gained some traction since he had a rocky beginning as the Flash but many were still pining Barry. What I was saying that at the time fans wanted Barry to make some return. So Waid and co had a story where Barry Allen returned after 7 years being absent and was marketed as such. They hinted throughout the book that Barry was acting strange and the big reveal was it was Eobart Thawne who was now a crazy Flash obsessed fanboy making comments that sound like a Barry fan IRL about how Wally was a terrible replacement. You think Barry Allen fans appreciated waiting 7 years to see Barry return to DC proper only to be a farce? My point is there is nothing Wally fans have not suffered that Barry fans hadn't suffered as well

    So do you think any major changes that happens should be permanent? Like if Bruce Wayne dies he is gone forever and someone else becomes Batman. Like if Wally died and was replaced by Barry or Bart or whoever would you be fine with Wally being gone for good like Barry seemingly was?

    "There is nothing that Wally fans have not suffered that Barry fans hadn't suffered as well"

    First and foremost, the majority of Barry fans these days weren't reading comics back then. And secondly, are you kidding me?

    Are you KIDDING me?

    You can't possibly believe this. Barry never got fucking Heroes In Crises'd. Barry never got turned into a racist caricature for the express purpose of being Wally's (Or I guess Jay's) token black character buddy. When Wally was the Flash we were STILL GETTING Barry stories! Despite the fact that Wally was the current Flash, guess who got the lauded Elseworlds imprint story about them? Barry Allen! And I really liked that story, too! The original Flashpoint When Barry was The Flash they did everything they could to sweep Wally under the rug. Which brings me to this:

    So we can't have anything Barry related? Like I still see people saying the CW show and movie should've had Wally despite Barry being instrumental to him becoming the Flash
    Of course we can. Because we did. All of my favorite Barry stories...happened while Wally was The Flash. Flashpoint. JLA Year One. Life Story of The Flash. Brave and the Bold. When Barry came back they did their level best to pretend Wally didn't fucking exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    Maybe you think the character was treated better because he was remembered as a great hero (a memory that was usually used to develop Wally). That does not change that the character was killed, so someone else could replace him.

    Not that I think many Wally fans will be happy if he is killed so Bart becomes the Flash, even if Wally is remembered as a big hero.
    I think he was treated better because he was treated better.

    I actually wouldn't mind if they had given an honest shot at Bart being The Flash and had given Wally a good send off instead of a shitty one like they did. I'm all on board with moving the mantle down. One of my absolute favorite pitches is Bart as a goofy, carefree Flash with Iris as his more serious Kid Flash in the vein of Dick and Damian, but for The Flash. So don't try to pull that shoe on the other foot thing with me.

    I probably wouldn't have just killed Wally off the exact same way they did Barry because that'd be a little lacking in imagination but that's just details.
    Last edited by Dred; 08-13-2020 at 09:05 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    It is not the same thing. Please stop pretending that it was the same thing. The differences have been spelled out in abundance. That it was so freaking different is where the majority of the rage comes from.
    The only difference is Wally was retconned. Barry still had to die for Wally to get his run. Ultimately if Wally died in 2008 and Barry got an uninterrupted run for 20 years I think Wally being out of the picture would be viewed as worse than Wally getting a retcon and a weird hybrid role now

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    Maybe you think the character was treated better because he was remembered as a great hero (a memory that was usually used to develop Wally). That does not change that the character was killed, so someone else could replace him.

    Not that I think many Wally fans will be happy if he is killed so Bart becomes the Flash, even if Wally is remembered as a big hero.
    Being salty about his death is understandable. However, the take-his-place comment is bizarre given the In-Story happenings and what Wally's codename had been.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    I think he was treated better because he was treated better.

    I actually wouldn't mind if they had given an honest shot at Bart being The Flash and had given Wally a good send off instead of a shitty one like they did. I'm all on board with moving the mantle down. One of my absolute favorite pitches is Bart as a goofy, carefree Flash with Iris as his more serious Kid Flash in the vein of Dick and Damian, but for The Flash. So don't try to pull that shoe on the other foot thing with me.
    I've never say "you", I don't know you enough to predict your reaction.

    I said many Wally fans wouldn't be happy. Do you think most Wally fans will just accept that his favorite character is killed to be replaced?
    Last edited by Konja7; 08-13-2020 at 09:10 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    I've never say "you", I don't know enough about you to predict your reaction.

    I say many Wally fans wouln't be happy. Do you think most Wally fans will just accept that his favorite character is killed to be replaced?
    No. I think they'd be less mad if the character got the same respect that Barry did. I say this because I am a Wally fan and I would've been less mad if the character was treated with any respect.

    That said, and I can't stress this enough. There is a difference in replacing Barry with Wally and replacing Wally with Barry. These are not equivalent actions even if they were treated with the exact same level of respect. There is a world of difference in the successor taking up the role of the predecessor and the predecessor returning to take back the role from the successor. At its most stripped down, fundamental level this situation can't be equivalent.

    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    The only difference is Wally was retconned. Barry still had to die for Wally to get his run. Ultimately if Wally died in 2008 and Barry got an uninterrupted run for 20 years I think Wally being out of the picture would be viewed as worse than Wally getting a retcon and a weird hybrid role now
    That is not the only difference and you very much know it. I shouldn't have to repeat myself.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Cuz, I grew up with Wally; then John's sidelined him
    It wasn't so much up to Johns. At the time he was working under the impression Wally would get his own book when he was writing Barry.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAN9000 View Post
    Barry is unworthy of his rank. He doesn't have memorable stories or interesting characterizations. The character who kept the Flash popular, made the Flash family grow and thrive for more than 20 years is Wally West.
    Just because you didn’t read the silver age doesn’t mean he didn’t have memorable stories. His last moment in COIE is probably more memorable then anything in Wally’s run. The arguable best Wally story (with Terminal Velocity being its only real challenger) is Return of Barry Allen which while he’s not “in it” really its completely impacted by the character. The story launched the multi verse is a Flash story. Trial of Flash and Death of Iris was a classic story even if it probably went on too long. Flashpoint is memorable story in its own right, the reboot itself kinda of adds baggage, but it’s probably the most impactful Flash story ever.

  12. #42
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    Wonder Woman actually introduced the multiverse to DC but no one cares about it as much because it didn't bridge two eras. GA WW was one of the most experimental comics ever.

    The most impactful Flash story ever is whichever issue pre-Terminal Velocity where Wally coined the term Speed Force. Nothing in The Flash since has been more fundamental since Jay debuted the idea of a Speed focused superhero named The Flash.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    is every silver age character bland and boring?
    Superman was better in especially bronze age and maybe even in some of the silverage.Ofcourse, there were problems.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't hate Barry but I think the one two-punch of Barry coming back and replacing Wally as the main Flash and taking so many concepts, stories, and characterizations from Wally made a lot of fans resentful towards him.
    Yup.
    I actually love the character Barry Allen. My issue from the get-go has been that Barry just didn't read like the Barry pre-Crisis.
    Add to that the awful Johns retcon with Barry's parents and the need to graft everything Wally/Flash onto Barry essentially making the Wally West character superfluous and his 248 issues as THE Flash completely meaningless.
    That was an ENORMOUS slap in the face to me as a Wally West fan.
    Instead of embracing everything that came before, DC attempted to make it appear as none of it happened, doing a major disservice to ALL the Flash-related characters in the process. It just created anger, frustration and disappointment where there should have been EXCITEMENT.

    In the decade since his return, the Flash Fact spouting, bow tie wearing, methodical CSI Barry Allen is yet to make an appearance.
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
    I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Wonder Woman actually introduced the multiverse to DC but no one cares about it as much because it didn't bridge two eras. GA WW was one of the most experimental comics ever.

    The most impactful Flash story ever is whichever issue pre-Terminal Velocity where Wally coined the term Speed Force. Nothing in The Flash since has been more fundamental since Jay debuted the idea of a Speed focused superhero named The Flash.
    Sorry that’s just ridiculous.

    1. Anybody who read the Silver Age knows the DC multiverse at that time and really most always was to connect the old JSA to the JLA and get those two sets of characters and eras together. That was why there was an annual Crisis etc. Flash of Two World’s did that. It was more impactful than the speedforce. By a lot.

    2. The only characters that have been Flash since the 60’s are Barry, Barry’s nephew who got his powers in the same way, was Barry’s sidekick, and spent a good chunk of his run trying to emulate and live up to Barry, and Bart who is Barry’s grandson. Most of the rogues started as Barry villains. Arguably the best villain of Wally’s run was just retread of Barry’s arch enemy. Like you can’t isolate Barry out of it and make it remotely work

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