Why do people hate Barry Allen?

[The no face guy]

When they first cancelled Wally his sales were as good as The Flash ever is. They were actually crossing over with Wonder Woman to boost her sales (which worked! The crossover sold out!). Batman and Superman were still ahead, and GL just had a relaunch with Rebirth and a new #1 and such but still. Seriously, when Johns left the comic it was hitting 50k marks and doing well in trades. It dropped to...45k despite being cancelled and losing Johns. It was very popular after an incredibly long run.

You're also wrong about Bart. though that's on a technicality. Even his last comic was selling absurdly high. It just had a precipitous fall from lack of quality and the trend was showing that it was going to get to bad sales numbers fast. Predictable failure but it actually sold like gangbusters at first. People were excited to see Bart as The Flash, even Wally fans. Seriously, go look at The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive sales numbers. Even outside of the #1 which was overbought from prospectors, the ensuing sales were really good until everyone realized what a mess it was. Its worst comic hit 47k!

And again, not true. In the DCYou period The Flash had far worse sales than Bart or Wally ever did. And I didn't hear a whiff about replacing or doing anything with Barry.

Wally had been slumping in sales for awhile, the fall sales of 2008 were dipping close to 25,000 which is not good for the Flash, and is most likely let to the decision to pull the trigger on Flash Rebirth, they made too much money off of Hal's resurrection as Green Lantern, they were probably hoping for similar sales numbers. That being said, I'm sure Geoff Johns had a hand in wanting to bring him back otherwise it would not have happened.

Looking at the Bart sales, you are correct the 12 issue run as the Flash sold allright, but his impulse series did not, which is no knock on Bart, it sold like how Dr. Fate, Deadman or insert any other secondary hero would sell.

I don't have an agenda here, I'm just crunching numbers. I do like Barry and I am happy he is the Flash, but I am not happy that Wally West has been sidelined, he and Roy should be in a Titans team, so fans of those character have somewhere to go.

[Rend20]

Wally had been slumping in sales for awhile, the fall sales of 2008 were dipping close to 25,000 which is not good for the Flash

But what was the sale numbers before they got rid of Wally in Infinite Crisis?

Saying they got rid of Wally for poor sales isn't really true because his book was selling quite well when they decided to replace him with Bart. Now the book didn't do well after they brought Wally back with the kids, but that has nothing to do with them originally kicking him out of the role while his sales were still good.

[The no face guy]

But what was the sale numbers before they got rid of Wally in Infinite Crisis?

Saying they got rid of Wally for poor sales isn't really true because his book was selling quite well when they decided to replace him with Bart. Now the book didn't do well after they brought Wally back with the kids, but that has nothing to do with them originally kicking him out of the role while his sales were still good.

Perhaps, I did a thread on DC comics sales a while back, and for stretch of years Wally wasn't selling to well, which is too be expected after 15 years or so. Wally is one of my favourite characters so again no agenda.

My preference for all titles is to give them a break for awhile, until demand for it starts to build again, but I just think the numbers that Hal brought in, made it too tempting profit wise not to try to repeat that financial success with Barry Allen, even if they knew it would be on a smaller scale because of his extended absence from the DCU

[BohemiaDrinker]

Wally had been slumping in sales for awhile, the fall sales of 2008 were dipping close to 25,000 which is not good for the Flash, and is most likely let to the decision to pull the trigger on Flash Rebirth, they made too much money off of Hal's resurrection as Green Lantern, they were probably hoping for similar sales numbers. That being said, I'm sure Geoff Johns had a hand in wanting to bring him back otherwise it would not have happened.

Those numbers were from a time where the book was already announced to be cancelled, Barry was already back in Final crisis and Flash Rebirth was already in production. Wally's book was cancelled twice and neither time was due to sales.

[The no face guy]

Those numbers were from a time where the book was already announced to be cancelled, Barry was already back in Final crisis and Flash Rebirth was already in production. Wally's book was cancelled twice and neither time was due to sales.

Fair enough, I have no problem being corrected on this forum. I still think that the financial success of Green Lantern Rebirth is what allowed Geoff Johns to go ahead with Flash Rebirth, the repeat of that success in sales made the idea to lucrative for DC executives even on a smaller scale.

I am happy with Barry at the moment. I would like to see Wally West in the Titans, as for Bart, that's a hard one because you have Wallace and (I forgot her name) running around as young speedsters now, but I'm sure a Bart fan will come up with the idea.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Fair enough, I have no problem being corrected on this forum. I still think that the financial success of Green Lantern Rebirth is what allowed Geoff Johns to go ahead with Flash Rebirth, the repeat of that success in sales made the idea to lucrative for DC executives even on a smaller scale.

Not a problem. There were times where Flash approached cancellation: right before Waid took over, right after he left and a few other occasions.

However, I dislike seeing the "sales" argument here (not a shot at you or your post, just a point I'm trying to make) because people use frequently, with the wrong numbers and as a justification. The implied reasoning is that "Wally's book failed, so they brought Barry back".

Which is not true at all. When Wally was cancelled during Infinite Crisis, there were only four or five DC books selling better than Flash. The second time, we already know was a "temporary" run.

Anyone may like or dislike whatever Flash for whatever reason, but Barry was brought back due to a personal vision/preference, and that's not really debatable at this point.

[The no face guy]

Not a problem. There were times where Flash approached cancellation: right before Waid took over, right after he left and a few other occasions.

However, I dislike seeing the "sales" argument here (not a shot at you or your post, just a point I'm trying to make) because people use frequently, with the wrong numbers and as a justification. The implied reasoning is that "Wally's book failed, so they brought Barry back".

Which is not true at all. When Wally was cancelled during Infinite Crisis, there were only four or five DC books selling better than Flash. The second time, we already know was a "temporary" run.

Anyone may like or dislike whatever Flash for whatever reason, but Barry was brought back due to a personal vision/preference, and that's not really debatable at this point.

Well as stated, I think there was a financial element to it, there always is. No success of Green Lantern Rebirth, no Flash rebirth, but yes, Geoff Johns was the catalyze to both of these.

At any rate, I never like to see people's favourite heroes replaced, it just drives people away from comics.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Well as stated, I think there was a financial element to it, there always is. No success of Green Lantern Rebirth, no Flash rebirth, but yes, Geoff Johns was the catalyze to both of these.

At any rate, I never like to see people's favourite heroes replaced, it just drives people away from comics.

Oh, it was not Johns I was talking about. I hate his take on Flash mythology, but if he had had his way things wouldn't have been nearly as bad for the last decade+.

[The no face guy]

Oh, it was not Johns I was talking about. I hate his take on Flash mythology, but if he had had his way things wouldn't have been nearly as bad for the last decade+.

Geoff Johns did bring both heroes back. Unless your talking about Levitz or DiDio's influence (I'm assuming Didio). At any rate, I'm not sure how I got in a debate about Wally West as he's one of my favs, so it seems to counter intuitive to continue.

I've grown comfortable with Barry as the Flash under Williamson. What I do not like is that Wally is sidelined without appearing regularly in a title, that needs to rectified.

[Doctor Bifrost]

I'm rolling my eyes at the plethora of people who act like they were robbed of 20 years of Barry Allen, like they were reading comics back in the 60s.

Comics are a nostalgia game these days, and you shouldn't be surprised. I started reading DC in 1959. Barry Allen was my Flash for many years.

And yet, I'll be honest. I didn't feel "robbed of Barry Allen for 20 years." He died in Crisis on Infinite Earths....

(Or in the CoIE-like event that happened in the DC SingleVerse... I love CoIE, but the aftermath was a mess, due to - in my opinion - thoughtlessness and poor editing. Barry died in CoIE, and everybody remembered him sadly. Supergirl/Kara Zor-El died in CoIE, and in the SingleVerse she never even existed and almost no one remembered her. If they had simply said, "Oh, in our new SingleVerse, which of necessity had a different version of CoIE, Barry Allen never died at all!", it wouldn't have been a contradiction...)

... then Wally West/Kid Flash took over the role. That didn't bother me at all. I was, in fact, more bothered when they played time-travel games to show Barry alive in the future. (Not because I didn't like Barry. But because it trivialized the story of his death, and because DC didn't have any time-travel rules to help you make sense of character relationships under these circumstances. And still don't.)

As it happens, I was a big fan of Wally West/Kid Flash. I always had a fondness for the Original 5 Teen Titans, and I liked Wally's adventures with Barry. (It was better after they gave him his own costume.) But I never really took to the Wally-as-Flash stories, or character. Not because I didn't like Wally, but because they kept having these arcs that veered in every direction. Look, he has to eat all the time! Look, he won the lottery! Look, he has twin kids who he brought up at superspeed so that they're already, like, young teens! (Without any consideration of the psychological effects that would have on him, or them.) It didn't feel like character development to me. It felt like throwing spaghetti against the walls to see what would stick.

(Yes, I am aware that there were arcs that many readers loved and that made Wally their favorite character. They are entitled and I am genuinely glad for them. Tastes differ.)

Now, when The New 52 came along, I - as someone who had followed DC and their "continuity" for many years and had generally given them a break - did feel robbed, of Barry and Wally both. This Barry was boring - maybe the Barry of 1960 had been boring as well, but we had come a long way from that. Also, I strongly dislike the angsty, guilt-ridden "my mom was murdered and my dad's in jail" Barry Allen. Not every character has to be given a tragic past.

And the way they brought back Wally - trapped in the Speed Force, forgotten by all, breaks free, some people get their memories of him (but not of everything) back, some people don't, some people have two sets of memories, maybe his adventures took place in the current timeline but were forgotten/erased (but if they were erased, did they take place?), maybe they took place in a parallel world but... - typifies a lot of tropes I dislike about "fixing continuity" in modern DC. (I want continuity to be fixed. Just not by limitless chronobabble.) The Flash used to be a series about a man who was very fast, and in particular could run very fast, and ultimately found ways to travel through time and other dimensions, and learned that his powers were connected to something called the Speed Force. Now, I would say, it is a series about time travel and dimension travel (without much in the way of comprehensible in-universe rules) and the Speed Force (which is, alternately, a concept, a source of power, a connection between speedsters, a place you can visit and even live in sorta like Kauai, and a sentient plane - and then there's the Reverse Speed Force...!), which has a bunch of very fast people in it getting lost and tossed around in those concepts. And I know some people love all that, but I'm not one of them. (I am more likely to say, "Show me that you can handle one universe in a narratively compelling way, and we'll see about giving you a few more..." All the stuff they're doing these days such seems like so much hand-waving to me. And as for how they tortured poor Wally after that...)

So: I don't hate Barry. I don't hate Wally. I disliked The New 52, which I think messed up both characters. I wish when they went to Rebirth, they would have just wiped out The New 52, or moved it to a parallel world, and created a new continuity that restored the things that worked pre-Flashpoint and adding/subtracting what they thought necessary (and let us know).

And if that had simply brought Barry back to life (as happens in comic books) into a world where he had died and Wally had become the Flash in honor of him, and now the two old chums would have to work out how they wanted to work together (and deal with the naming rights), instead of constantly trying to somehow explain and rationalize The New 52 at the same time that they were getting rid of it. (Wally was non-existent for all of The New 52, so as we adjust reality for Rebirth we have to explain why he was gone all that time? No, you don't. Just adjust reality so that he wasn't gone. Much easier, and better for fans of both.)

(As for Wonder Woman, the fact that they spent many issues explaining that her New 52 life was something like a gods-induced delusion - "The Lies" -that she believed for many years when she was an active hero, mixed with holodeck-like encounters with fake gods conjured by the real gods to support the delusion, and now we're going to let you, and her, in on "The Truth" - oh, DC, why do you do these things to yourself? And your characters? You're changing reality. Just make "The Truth" Diana's truth, and don't keep around The New 52 stuff as hallucinatory, psychological baggage that you'll never want to refer to again anyway. But I think we're three iterations beyond that Wonder Woman anyway.)

But that's just me.

And yes, I read lots of Barry Allen from early Silver Age days on, although perhaps not the Showcase issues, and maybe not the first issue of his own comic, which was interestingly enough called Flash #105. I suspect I caught up on those later.

[Denkota]

Very interesting observations Dr Bifrost.

[Agent Z]

Alright I'll take your word. However you act like Wally West was at the top of his game and DC pulled the plug when that wasn't the case. After Rogue Wars Johns' writing went down hill, introduced Wally's twins and then after leaving Wally got forgettable mediocre stories. And Green Lantern Rebirth was in 2006. Flash: The Fastest Man Alive was also published in 2006 so why bother having Bart become the Flash if they always planned on Barry returning?



And people hated they condensed everything in 5 years. People joke about how the Robins are basically interns with the amount of turnover Batman had going through 3 or 4 Robins in just 5 years. I don't think people would be confused I just don't think they'd care about Barry if he was given just 5 years or so. Like what legacy can be built in 5 years?

What does Ant Man have to do with this? The movie established Hank invented the shrinking suit and was Ant Man before he left SHIELD and then hired Scott to steal the Pym particles from Yellow Jacket. For all intents and purposes Hank was just the old wise mentor. And fans of Hank hated that move from Marvel. I know people who knew Ant man and Wasp from Avengers EMH and they were confused over who Scott Lang was despite the fact he is the longest tenure Ant Man. What I said was would you OK with Wally being the only Flash so essentially like the Justice League cartoon where there is no mention of Jay or Barry

What I said was it makes no sense to have Wally be the only Flash because Barry is incredibly important to Wally. Like I said disregarding Barry and Jay would be like having Dick be Batman with no mention of Bruce. Like even legacy characters in movies like Scott, Miles and Carol makes reference to their predecessors. The only examples off my head I can think of where they ignore their predecessors is Avengers EMH where Ms Marvel joins the team but never mentions Mar Vell and the DCAU

EDIT: The book I was talking about was Flash Companion. And if decisions are made months in advanced then DC decided to kill Barry when he was in the middle of the Death of Iris arc

Mar Vell did appear in EMH.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Not a problem. There were times where Flash approached cancellation: right before Waid took over, right after he left and a few other occasions.

However, I dislike seeing the "sales" argument here (not a shot at you or your post, just a point I'm trying to make) because people use frequently, with the wrong numbers and as a justification. The implied reasoning is that "Wally's book failed, so they brought Barry back".

Which is not true at all. When Wally was cancelled during Infinite Crisis, there were only four or five DC books selling better than Flash. The second time, we already know was a "temporary" run.

Anyone may like or dislike whatever Flash for whatever reason, but Barry was brought back due to a personal vision/preference, and that's not really debatable at this point.

The No Face Guy does make a compelling argument, though. Didio was looking to bring back the Silver Age characters and get the "Iconic" identities back into their roles. So, when Hal's return was a resounding success, I think it gave DC editorial more grounds to reinstate Barry further down the line.

Now, obviously, that didn't happen immediately. They tried to move forward with Bart (you now had a Allen under the cowl again). They even had Bart opt to take up studying to become a forensic science to follow in Barry's footsteps. The problem is that the books quality dropped quickly. So Wally was brought back and his book continued from where it left off. Again, it failed to get any traction (even with Waid onboard for the first arc).

Green Lantern: Rebirth was a story that felt like a natural extension in the ongoing redemption of Hal Jordan. Despite being dead, Hal had never really left the DC universe proper. He was still around in one form or another. So him returning as Green Lantern made sense. Flash: Rebirth, despite being a sales success, wasn't as critically acclaimed as GL: Rebirth.

Why do people hate Barry? I guess it is the usual "you replaced a character I loved!" response. I can certainly understand that. Wally is my Flash. I was born the year his book started and I collected his stuff from just before Waid took over. I was entering my twenties when Barry was brought back. For me, Wally WAS The Flash. But I never hated Barry. I just didn't like how the "Flash Family" that John's had established in Rebirth got tossed aside once the New52 kicked in. If we could have multiple Robin's and Go's, why not speedsters?

[Somecrazyaussie]

Comics are a nostalgia game these days, and you shouldn't be surprised. I started reading DC in 1959. Barry Allen was my Flash for many years.

And yet, I'll be honest. I didn't feel "robbed of Barry Allen for 20 years." He died in Crisis on Infinite Earths....

(Or in the CoIE-like event that happened in the DC SingleVerse... I love CoIE, but the aftermath was a mess, due to - in my opinion - thoughtlessness and poor editing. Barry died in CoIE, and everybody remembered him sadly. Supergirl/Kara Zor-El died in CoIE, and in the SingleVerse she never even existed and almost no one remembered her. If they had simply said, "Oh, in our new SingleVerse, which of necessity had a different version of CoIE, Barry Allen never died at all!", it wouldn't have been a contradiction...)

... then Wally West/Kid Flash took over the role. That didn't bother me at all. I was, in fact, more bothered when they played time-travel games to show Barry alive in the future. (Not because I didn't like Barry. But because it trivialized the story of his death, and because DC didn't have any time-travel rules to help you make sense of character relationships under these circumstances. And still don't.)

As it happens, I was a big fan of Wally West/Kid Flash. I always had a fondness for the Original 5 Teen Titans, and I liked Wally's adventures with Barry. (It was better after they gave him his own costume.) But I never really took to the Wally-as-Flash stories, or character. Not because I didn't like Wally, but because they kept having these arcs that veered in every direction. Look, he has to eat all the time! Look, he won the lottery! Look, he has twin kids who he brought up at superspeed so that they're already, like, young teens! (Without any consideration of the psychological effects that would have on him, or them.) It didn't feel like character development to me. It felt like throwing spaghetti against the walls to see what would stick.

(Yes, I am aware that there were arcs that many readers loved and that made Wally their favorite character. They are entitled and I am genuinely glad for them. Tastes differ.)

Now, when The New 52 came along, I - as someone who had followed DC and their "continuity" for many years and had generally given them a break - did feel robbed, of Barry and Wally both. This Barry was boring - maybe the Barry of 1960 had been boring as well, but we had come a long way from that. Also, I strongly dislike the angsty, guilt-ridden "my mom was murdered and my dad's in jail" Barry Allen. Not every character has to be given a tragic past.

And the way they brought back Wally - trapped in the Speed Force, forgotten by all, breaks free, some people get their memories of him (but not of everything) back, some people don't, some people have two sets of memories, maybe his adventures took place in the current timeline but were forgotten/erased (but if they were erased, did they take place?), maybe they took place in a parallel world but... - typifies a lot of tropes I dislike about "fixing continuity" in modern DC. (I want continuity to be fixed. Just not by limitless chronobabble.) The Flash used to be a series about a man who was very fast, and in particular could run very fast, and ultimately found ways to travel through time and other dimensions, and learned that his powers were connected to something called the Speed Force. Now, I would say, it is a series about time travel and dimension travel (without much in the way of comprehensible in-universe rules) and the Speed Force (which is, alternately, a concept, a source of power, a connection between speedsters, a place you can visit and even live in sorta like Kauai, and a sentient plane - and then there's the Reverse Speed Force...!), which has a bunch of very fast people in it getting lost and tossed around in those concepts. And I know some people love all that, but I'm not one of them. (I am more likely to say, "Show me that you can handle one universe in a narratively compelling way, and we'll see about giving you a few more..." All the stuff they're doing these days such seems like so much hand-waving to me. And as for how they tortured poor Wally after that...)

So: I don't hate Barry. I don't hate Wally. I disliked The New 52, which I think messed up both characters. I wish when they went to Rebirth, they would have just wiped out The New 52, or moved it to a parallel world, and created a new continuity that restored the things that worked pre-Flashpoint and adding/subtracting what they thought necessary (and let us know).

And if that had simply brought Barry back to life (as happens in comic books) into a world where he had died and Wally had become the Flash in honor of him, and now the two old chums would have to work out how they wanted to work together (and deal with the naming rights), instead of constantly trying to somehow explain and rationalize The New 52 at the same time that they were getting rid of it. (Wally was non-existent for all of The New 52, so as we adjust reality for Rebirth we have to explain why he was gone all that time? No, you don't. Just adjust reality so that he wasn't gone. Much easier, and better for fans of both.)

(As for Wonder Woman, the fact that they spent many issues explaining that her New 52 life was something like a gods-induced delusion - "The Lies" -that she believed for many years when she was an active hero, mixed with holodeck-like encounters with fake gods conjured by the real gods to support the delusion, and now we're going to let you, and her, in on "The Truth" - oh, DC, why do you do these things to yourself? And your characters? You're changing reality. Just make "The Truth" Diana's truth, and don't keep around The New 52 stuff as hallucinatory, psychological baggage that you'll never want to refer to again anyway. But I think we're three iterations beyond that Wonder Woman anyway.)

But that's just me.

And yes, I read lots of Barry Allen from early Silver Age days on, although perhaps not the Showcase issues, and maybe not the first issue of his own comic, which was interestingly enough called Flash #105. I suspect I caught up on those later.

Excellent post, Doctor Bifrost.

If anything, I think most people hate the "CW" Barry and the comic version gets the blowback from that. Like you, I never liked the "my mum was murdered" angle. Barry, unlike most heroes, genuinely loved being The Flash. But, I guess, DC editorial didn't think a guy just wanting to use his powers for good is a interesting enough hook.

[Agent Z]

How is Barry doing as a character these days? Who is reading Flash right now?

Well he's on a t.v. show and that easily beats comics as much as I'd prefer Wally.