Why do people hate Barry Allen?

[Dred]

That's the key thing about the whole Barry/Wally debate. Pre-COIE, what was the real difference between the two? Their hair color? If you thought one was boring, then you would have had to conclude the other was just as snooze inducing. Which is probably why they were originally going to bypass Wally and go with an entirely new character instead.

If Barry had survived COIE, there's zero reason why everything Wally received (including a personalty makeover) could have gone to him instead. So Wally-as-the-#1-Flash fans, you're welcome.

This is wrong. You can't just port all of Wally's stories onto Barry. Wally's literal best story is about the idea of Barry Allen coming back ruining his life. You can't turn Iris into Linda, which is the backbone of Waid's entire run. Hell you can't even do a lot of the Bart stuff because...why would Iris come back from the future if Barry never died? What's the point of Hunter Zolomon, whose point is to be the Reverse Flash to Wally, when that's already Barry's thing? How do you do Waid's final arc with Barry and Iris when Barry and Iris are already married? How do you do ANY of the stories that revolved around Wally's identity being public -- something that only happened because Barry died?

There are certainly some stories you could port over. Once you get rid of Bart and Jenni I don't see why you couldn't do Dead Heat with Barry. And I guess Barry eventually got his own version of the Dark Flash saga...it just happened to be the worst Flash arc ever instead of good. You could probably do Chain Lightning though you miss a lot of the meat of that story. The idea of a time travel rollercoaster ride through the future history of Flash legacy falls a little shallow in a comic that wouldn't have legacy as a backbone of its storytelling. Similarly, the same would be true of Race Against Time -- you could port over some kind of phantom imitation of it but the stuff with, say, The Tornado Twins doesn't work from that arc.

Maybe you could do a lot of Johns' stuff with Barry. You can't really do Ignition due to the secret identity thing but Ignition was his worst arc anyhow. All the Rogue character updates are certainly transferable, though the idea of Wally getting his own new set of Rogues wouldn't mean anything if Barry was still The Flash. You also obviously miss out on Rogue War because of that and the finale kind of needing the Barry-Wally vs Hunter-Thawne combo.

[The Darknight Detective]

Idk if it’s about enjoyment. I could say I remember a lot of years where Kyle and John Stewart fans justified the hell out of Emerald Twilight and defended that story largely because it got Hal out of the way for their favorites to shine (when John fans can’t even deal with Xanshi much less what Hal had happen) then got bent out of shape when Hal returned and took the spotlight while they were forced to side books.

Which is why I inferred in an earlier post that nobody cares about a character if he or she doesn't stand in the way of one you enjoy reading. If Barry (or Wally) were Lightning Bug Man and didn't displace another from wearing a costume, being part of a team, starring in a TV show or movie, etc., the number of negative comments would fall off the table.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Waid and Johns wrote plenty of Barry, though their Barry stories were never quite as good as their Wally ones. I feel like Waid got the better take on both Barry and Wally than Johns, but still. Seems like a kind of weird point to make when we've got a big sample size of both. And there are certainly stories that they did that work with Wally and not Barry because Wally's got more dimensions to his character set up. This makes him less adaptation friendly but the tradeoff is much better character development.

Another big part is that Wally got a new cast of characters because he was a new Flash and that cast was arguably the biggest improvement. For instance, Linda was much better than Iris ever was and when half of Wally's run is based on it being a long term love story between him and Linda...that's kind of a big deal. Heck, Iris became a much better character in that era, too. Finally had a bit of freaking agency to her when she was no longer the Damsel.

But sure, Heroes in Crisis was terrible and it featured Wally. But it wasn't even a Flash story. It was an awful story written entirely distinctly from Wally that they shoved Wally into because...Didio told King to put Wally there. Literally one man intentionally ruining Wally. Barry's failures were never explicitly and categorically because someone in charge actively wanted to ruin his character. The worst Flash run of all time featured Barry. Hell it featured two Barrys. So not the best hill to die on, there.

If anything, all the worst things about Barry these days are because the people in charge want only to make him more prominent, often at the intentional detriment to Wally.

Waid only really wrote Barry significant in JLA Year One. Which is largely considered one of the top JLA stories of that decade that people love. Unless you count mock Barry in Return of Barry Allen which is arguably along with Terminal Velocity the best story in Wally’s run. Pre Flash Rebirth, John’s only really “wrote” Barry in Rogur Wars which was the peak of his run. But really Johns only “wrote Barry” in Flash Rebirth (okay story criticized for Massive delays), Blackest Night where he was a co lead next to Hal (well received), a few issues to start Volume 4 before it got cut off, and Flashpoint (very well regarded Flash story, only part that isn’t is that it led to a reboot).

So neither really had a run with Barry like what they got with Wally. Wally got the two best Flash writers in history. Johns for 2001-2005 and Waid for 1992-2000. It’s hardly comparable. You’re talking 15 years of stories which is nearly 75% of the Wally run vs like 3 actual Flash centric stories from Johns and one team book from Waid.

I mean it’s really easy for a character to look good when two landmark writers who would both go on to have incredible careers both made their bones writing the bulk of that characters run.

Now I’ll grant you that Wally allowed for a whole new cast, but there was literally no reason anybody but Linda couldn’t have appeared in a Barry run by them. Jesse Quick? Max Mercury? Jay in his mentor role? Not really. Impulse maybe.... but honestly he easily could have been Barry’s new sidekick. Wally could have went to the Titans. That was around the same time a new Robin popped up and Dick became Nightwing. So give Wally a new grown up identity and keep him with the Titans and then a few years later you could introduce Bart as Impulse. Really all it would take are some tweaks with Iris and Linda and the whole “living up to Barry” angle, and that’s not really hard to flick Barry into those books.


My overall point is, bad writing and good writing are the issues with both characters. Nothing is fundamentally better about one vs the other

[skyvolt2000]

Idk if it’s about enjoyment. I could say I remember a lot of years where Kyle and John Stewart fans justified the hell out of Emerald Twilight and defended that story largely because it got Hal out of the way for their favorites to shine (when John fans can’t even deal with Xanshi much less what Hal had happen) then got bent out of shape when Hal returned and took the spotlight while they were forced to side books.

When did John shine when Hal was gone??? John was in a wheelchair and depressed about a dead sister before some show called Justice League got him off the scrapper.
John was forever defined Xanshi. It never went away. It kept coming back. Unlike Hal-his antics have been dealt with and he moved on.
John has been the Storm of GLC and an after thought to folks not named McDuffie.
John was doing fine with Hal around before Hal went nuts. He had his own book as did Hal and Guy.
Kyle had the keys to the kingdom for 10+ years.

John fans tossed DC the bird and left after a certain book. Wally fans didn't.
What both fanbases were sick and tired of was the disrespect to both characters. They had to put up with crap while others didn't.

Now we are at a point where BOTH could help in the New DC but so much damage from the previous folks might have ruined that chance.

[skyvolt2000]

Which is why I inferred in an earlier post that nobody cares about a character if he or she doesn't stand in the way of one you enjoy reading. If Barry (or Wally) were Lightning Bug Man and didn't displace another from wearing a costume, being part of a team, starring in a TV show or movie, etc., the number of negative comments would fall off the table.

There would be NONE and we would be getting ready for Lightning Bug Man #200 by now.

[The Darknight Detective]

This is wrong. You can't just port Wally's stories onto Barry. Wally's literal best story is about the idea of Barry Allen coming back ruining his life.

Well, that story (with some alterations) would have gone to the other legacy character who replaced the superhero DC decided to kill off during COIE instead, of course.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

This is wrong. You can't just port Wally's stories onto Barry. Wally's literal best story is about the idea of Barry Allen coming back ruining his life. You can't turn Iris into Linda, which is the backbone of Waid's entire run. Hell you can't even do a lot of the Bart stuff because...why would Iris come back from the future if Barry never died? What's the point of Hunter Zolomon, whose point is to be the Reverse Flash to Wally, when that's already Barry's thing? How do you do Waid's final arc with Barry and Iris when Barry and Iris are already married? How do you do ANY of the stories that revolved around Wally's identity being public -- something that only happened because Barry died?

There are certainly some stories you could port over. Once you get rid of Bart I don't see why you couldn't do Dead Heat with Barry. And I guess Barry eventually got his own version of the Dark Flash saga...it just happened to be the worst Flash arc ever instead of good. You could probably do Chain Lightning though you miss a lot of the meat of that story. The idea of a time travel rollercoaster ride through the future history of Flash legacy falls a little shallow in a comic that wouldn't have legacy as a backbone of its storytelling.

Crisis was a reboot. You easily could have not had Barry and Iris married. You give Barry’s personality the same reboot that Wally got. You lose Return of Barry Allen, which sucks (but let’s be real I wouldn’t want to die on the hill that Wally is better because of a story that relies heavily on Barry). And Professor Zoom was dead so you just tweak it to say “you need a new archenemy to push you again”.

Again after a 20 year run of Wally being a mini Barry they have him the costume and a whole new personality. That wasn’t something superior about Wally’s personality. It was a reboot changing things you easily could give to Barry (and some people in this thread have criticized some writers of giving Barry the Wally personality).

[The Darknight Detective]

There would be NONE and we would be getting ready for Lightning Bug Man #200 by now.

Heh. You're 100% correct!

[Dred]

Waid only really wrote Barry significant in JLA Year One. Which is largely considered one of the top JLA stories of that decade that people love. Unless you count mock Barry in Return of Barry Allen which is arguably along with Terminal Velocity the best story in Wally’s run. Pre Flash Rebirth, John’s only really “wrote” Barry in Rogur Wars which was the peak of his run. But really Johns only “wrote Barry” in Flash Rebirth (okay story criticized for Massive delays), Blackest Night where he was a co lead next to Hal (well received), a few issues to start Volume 4 before it got cut off, and Flashpoint (very well regarded Flash story, only part that isn’t is that it led to a reboot).

So neither really had a run with Barry like what they got with Wally. Wally got the two best Flash writers in history. Johns for 2001-2005 and Waid for 1992-2000. It’s hardly comparable. You’re talking 15 years of stories which is nearly 75% of the Wally run vs like 3 actual Flash centric stories from Johns and one team book from Waid.

I mean it’s really easy for a character to look good when two landmark writers who would both go on to have incredible careers both made their bones writing the bulk of that characters run.

Now I’ll grant you that Wally allowed for a whole new cast, but there was literally no reason anybody but Linda couldn’t have appeared in a Barry run by them. Jesse Quick? Max Mercury? Jay in his mentor role? Not really. Impulse maybe.... but honestly he easily could have been Barry’s new sidekick. Wally could have went to the Titans. That was around the same time a new Robin popped up and Dick became Nightwing. So give Wally a new grown up identity and keep him with the Titans and then a few years later you could introduce Bart as Impulse. Really all it would take are some tweaks with Iris and Linda and the whole “living up to Barry” angle, and that’s not really hard to flick Barry into those books.


My overall point is, bad writing and good writing are the issues with both characters. Nothing is fundamentally better about one vs the other

Once again showing your ignorance. Waid literally wrote a story called The Life Story of The Flash. An actual in universe Barry Allen biography. And Brave and The Bold, a Barry/Hal teamup mini. Not as much as he wrote Wally, obviously, but Life Story alone constitutes one of the most detailed single writer examples of Barry anyone's ever given. And the bits and pieces we got from his Flash run, like Born to Run and Chain Lightning, but those constitute cameos more than anything, obviously.

Johns literally had an entire run and two completely Barry centric events. How does that not count? Not to mention years of Justice League, where he puts on his best Wally West imitation.

Bart certainly doesn't work. Same with Jenni. You don't get any future Tornado Twins in a world where Barry never dies, you don't get the grandkids from the future. Like, think about what you're saying. Think about how Bart showed up and why he exists. Why would any of this happen in a universe where Iris isn't the badass time travelling grandma? Why is Barry not raising his children, why is he not there to help Bart when Bart's aging goes haywire?

Oh, okay, all it would take is some "tweaks" to literally the most important parts of Waid's run. Just throw those out the window and you basically got the same shebang.

I wrote another post detailing how silly everything you're saying is but seriously, no, they aren't as interchangeable as you're saying. If they were you wouldn't care so much about Barry being replaced by Wally.

I love how every Barry fan's suggestion is just to demote Wally back to the Titans. Just ship him over to that team book and forget about him, that'll solve everything! Also give him a new identity! Also take literally everything from him and give it to Barry! This all makes some sick twisted sense in your minds and it turns my dang stomach.


PS: Just as a fun little stinger, JLA Year One is one of the absolute best JL comics and it prominently features Barry! Funnily enough, the only JLA comics I (and many others) would consider better are the Morrison/Waid/Kelly era JLA...prominently featuring Wally West! How about that.

[Frontier]

Thinking on it, this thread is kind of funny given how it mirrors how people treat Barry in-universe .

[bretmaverick2]

Wally’s personality enhancement began BEFORE he became Flash. It started under Wolfman & Pérez in their NTT.

TO my point, Barry could have had better stories. I think the writers probably saw him as boring as well.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Once again showing your ignorance. Waid literally wrote a story called The Life Story of The Flash. A literal Barry Allen biography. And Brave and The Bold, a Barry/Hal teamup mini. Not as much as he wrote Wally, obviously, but Life Story alone constitutes one of the most detailed single writer examples of Barry anyone's ever given.

Johns literally had an entire run and two completely Barry centric events. How does that not count? Not to mention years of Justice League, where he puts on his best Wally West imitation.

Bart certainly doesn't work. Same with Jenni. You don't get any future Tornado Twins in a world where Barry never dies, you don't get the grandkids from the future. Like, think about what you're saying. Think about how Bart showed up and why he exists.

Oh, okay, all it would take is some "tweaks" to literally the most important parts of Waid's run. Just throw those out the window and you basically got the same shebang.

I wrote another post detailing how silly everything you're saying is but seriously, no, they aren't as interchangeable as you're saying. If they were you wouldn't care so much about Barry being replaced by Wally.

Are you really going to die on the hill of a team up mini and a glorified historama to a near decade comic book run that’s almost half of Wally’s tenure as Flash? Not to mention both and JLA Year One are considered very good stories. So it doesn’t really suggest Waid couldn’t write and amazing Barry..

Johns did NOT have an entire run. We got Rebirth, then 12 issues to set up a bunch of **** that all got discarded so he that his next story Flashpoint could reboot everything. So he wrote 4 stories and had what was supposed to be a long run hijacked reboot the universe and he got pulled off. And again this very site continued two of those 4 stories to be among the top Flash stories ever. So again.....not really a suggestion either writer wouldn’t have wrote amazing Barry runs of given the chance.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Wally’s personality enhancement began BEFORE he became Flash. It started under Wolfman & Pérez in their NTT.

TO my point, Barry could have had better stories. I think the writers probably saw him as boring as well.

I read all of NTT. The Wally in that book is nothing like the Wally from Flash Volume 2. It was a complete overall. He was a little angsts in Titans

[The Darknight Detective]

Thinking on it, this thread is kind of funny given how it mirrors how people treat Barry in-universe .

Yeah, in some quarters, he has become the Rodney Dangerfield of superheroes.

[Dred]

Are you really going to die on the hill of a team up mini and a glorified historama to a near decade comic book run that’s almost half of Wally’s tenure as Flash? Not to mention both and JLA Year One are considered very good stories. So it doesn’t really suggest Waid couldn’t write and amazing Barry..

Johns did NOT have an entire run. We got Rebirth, then 12 issues to set up a bunch of **** that all got discarded so he that his next story Flashpoint could reboot everything. So he wrote 4 stories and had what was supposed to be a long run hijacked reboot the universe and he got pulled off. And again this very site continued two of those 4 stories to be among the top Flash stories ever. So again.....not really a suggestion either writer wouldn’t have wrote amazing Barry runs of given the chance.

Yeah. I'm not saying Waid can't write a good Barry. I think he's had the best modern take on Barry of any writer so far. Those were good comics! I've never said Barry is a bad character incapable of good comics. I said you can't just replace Wally with Barry during his run and get the same thing. Even the same quality, much less the same themes. Because even Waid and Johns' good Barry work pales compared to their Wally work.

Again, if you think this is the case, why replace Wally with Barry? Why not just use Jay if the character doesn't matter?