Why do people hate Barry Allen?

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Dude, we know exactly what a modern take on Barry would be because we've had a decade of it. It doesn't matter if it was in the 90s or in 2009 because guess what? What we got wasn't great. I like Flash Rebirth and even I wouldn't consider it amazing. It was a fine set up that ultimately led to very little? Could it have led to better things? Probably. But it DIDN'T. That's the reality as far as I'm concerned.

They ruined the best death and legacy in comics, and quite frankly the strongest thing that a comic about a guy who runs fast had going for it, for what exactly? 10 years of mediorcre Flash comics? To be a meme about breaking the timeline? So that they could make a tv show that they could have made anyway?

I was SO excited to have Barry back and see everyone together in Flash Rebirth but who needs supporting characters and world building when we have dead moms and generic speeches about moving forward. Ironically without ever allowing anything in the Flash universe to actually evolve or move past Barry being sad about his mom.

That's why I don't like modern Barry (love the silver age guy). His depressing schtick isn't interesting or compelling and it's been frustrating to see my favourite comic book family be shoved aside for it. I seriously hope things change for the better soon. It's depressing to watch to me.


There's a line that starts off Flash Rebirth where Thawne talks about how bringing Barry back is the worst thing he could have ever done to him. It's rediculous how true that ended up being on a meta level.

That’s way too much presuming. When Barry came back he returned as living legend type character and to a world that largely passed him by and they felt the need to retcon his mother etc. If he was just the Flash after COIE, none of that exists and he’s just in the same spot Wally was either through reboot or he’s a fully formed Flash just doing the things guys like Messner-Loebs, Waid, and Johns wanted. A lot of what they did wasn’t going to happen and they weren’t going to have New 52 crap added.

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

The point people are making is that a lot of reasons people are saying is that the real difference between Barry and Wally are writers.

Wally West existed for a quarter of century where he was effectively a Barry clone and then an angsty Barry clone in the Titans. So when people state it’s his fun loving personality and more relaxed persona and then get miffed that Barry adopts those elements.... those were all rebooted traits that weren’t intrinsic to Wally as character and if they decided to do a completely hard reboot after Crisis like they did with Wonder Woman, that could have easily been Barry with that personality. Storywise, if Barry got nearly 15 years of Waid and John, it wouldn’t be a carbon copy of stories.... BUT most of those elements could have remained in some fashion. The speedforce, Max and Jay.... Bart could still be a grandson from the future via some tweeks, Liberty Belle, John’s could have done the same thing with the Rogues. Even the twins could have basically just been Barry’s or even Wally’s. He could have assumed a new identity and married Linda. The biggest things you lose are Linda, some of the living up to Barry stuff (which easily could be transferred to Barry living up to Jay), the Iris in the future stuff, Return of Barry Allen and you would need to tweak a few things to get from Thawne to Zolomon. But the core themes easily could have maintained and done well.

Wally only got all that stuff because they wanted the main Flash to be Wally. Then they changed their minds. When you already had to reboot to change his personality to what it was, it’s hard to say it’s fundamentally theirs

That’s way too much presuming. When Barry came back he returned as living legend type character and to a world that largely passed him by and they felt the need to retcon his mother etc. If he was just the Flash after COIE, none of that exists and he’s just in the same spot Wally was either through reboot or he’s a fully formed Flash just doing the things guys like Messner-Loebs, Waid, and Johns wanted. A lot of what they did wasn’t going to happen and they weren’t going to have New 52 crap added.

I personally don't buy into the whole "Barry is being written as Wally" thing. However, I do think that there is a generic goofy Flash persona that they both get pinned into when writers don't care or know better.

I agree that Barry would have done better with ANY other rebooted version but I don't think it would be the same. Baron made Wally a huge jerk to contrast the type of person Barry was. I don't know if I'd see them taking that direction with a rebooted Barry and I don't think they should anyway. Messner-Loebs took that and turned it into a story about Wally's insecurities in Barry's shadow. Which then influenced what Waid did and so on.

I think there's a huge butterfly effect style change when you have Barry rebooted after crisis instead of Wally taking over. A lot of changes were made to contrast Wally with the happy go lucky Barry Allen and that's what makes Wally who he is. The good and bad qualities that came from those decisions are what builds the character of Wally that we love.

Also, it was always really cool being able to actually go back and see Wally grow up under Barry's mentorship and grow into his own Flash. I always loved how the silver age never felt retconed out of Flash, unlike some other series. It would be hard to replicate that feeling by retconning in a closer mentorship between Jay and Barry. Remember, Barry was an established hero when he started working with Jay so it's a bit different.

Tl;dr: I don't know what would have happened if Barry had been rebooted at crisis but I doubt it would have been the same thing with Wally as a blonde named Barry. Would it have been enough to turn me and other Wallly fans into the Flash nuts we are? Who knows. I certainly wouldn't trade Wally's run as the Flash or what it means to me to find out.

Also, we can't say what could have been because what happened is what happened and we got what we got. New 52 DID derail Johns and the modern Barry stories we have are a result of that. I can't give an opinion on modern Barry and ignore the last decade of personal frustration with the book.

[Dboi2001]

The funny thing about this is that Hal and Barry together have been back for sixteen years. Yet despite DC's best efforts they still can't get fans onboard with either character the way they can for Batman and Superman. It's like you're mad that not everyone likes your favorite characters but if their stories were good enough you wouldn't care if people didn't like them.

What are you talking about? Plenty of people like Barry and Hal especially Hal

[Dboi2001]

Wally is a different character from Barry. That's what. I've stated the differences earlier in this thread. Three times, I believe, and I'm sure one of the times it was brought up was by you.

We know what Barry would've been if Waid wrote him. Waid wrote him. He had a very clear idea of what kind of character Barry was. If it had been a long form story like with Wally I'm sure there would've been more plot involved but it's not like we didn't get an idea of how Waid pictures and writes Barry's character.

Thank god Wally didn't end up going the Nightwing direction. What a horrible waste and nightmare that would've ended up being.

When did I ever say Wally and Barry were the same character? The closest I may have said was that modern Barry takes a lot from Wally

Yeah we know from one non canon 12 issue series and a decompressed highlight reel of Silver Age Flash stories. Regardless that wasn't my point. My point was Barry would've gotten a revamp just like Wally. I also don't get why you act like Flash fans didn't want Barry Allen back. Like Flash sales may have gone down before Crisis but Flash was still a very popular character and one reason why Wolfman didn't want to kill him off

What is wrong with Nightwing? What do you want Bruce Wayne to die off permanently and have Dick take over permanently? Like seriously if DC killed off Barry and Wally and had him be replaced would you be fine with that?

[Rend20]

The point people are making is that a lot of reasons people are saying is that the real difference between Barry and Wally are writers.

The fallacy in your stance is it's based entirely on hindsight.

You couldn't do the whole 'sidekick made good' story for Barry because there would be no reason to do it. Not only had Barry already been The Flash (and only The Flash) for decades in the comics, but he was shown to be superior to Jay whenever they were paired up. The reason we got that with Wally is because it naturally fit within the context of his story.

A lot of the stuff you mentioned wouldn't have happened had Barry remained as The Flash. Also, odds are neither Messner-Loebs or Waid would have been on the book since they only really got it because Wally was the lead. That's not to say they couldn't have successfully revamped Barry Post-Crisis, but the character and the mythology would have been very different from what it was with Wally.

When you already had to reboot to change his personality to what it was, it’s hard to say it’s fundamentally theirs.

Sure it is as long as it belongs to them first.

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

When did I ever say Wally and Barry were the same character? The closest I may have said was that modern Barry takes a lot from Wally

Yeah we know from one non canon 12 issue series and a decompressed highlight reel of Silver Age Flash stories. Regardless that wasn't my point. My point was Barry would've gotten a revamp just like Wally. I also don't get why you act like Flash fans didn't want Barry Allen back. Like Flash sales may have gone down before Crisis but Flash was still a very popular character and one reason why Wolfman didn't want to kill him off

What is wrong with Nightwing? What do you want Bruce Wayne to die off permanently and have Dick take over permanently? Like seriously if DC killed off Barry and Wally and had him be replaced would you be fine with that?

I would sacrifice a multiverse of Bruce Waynes in a heartbeat for more Dick and Damian as Batman and Robin. Where do I sign up?

[Dboi2001]

I would sacrifice a multiverse of Bruce Waynes in a heartbeat for more Dick and Damian as Batman and Robin. Where do I sign up?

Do you think there are any major heroes who should be off limits for killing off?

[TheBatman]

The funny thing about this is that Hal and Barry together have been back for sixteen years. Yet despite DC's best efforts they still can't get fans onboard with either character the way they can for Batman and Superman.

Barry is the star of a popular TV show and is on track to star in his own film.

Hal returned, and became the star of the most popular GL run of all time.

Both guys have done pretty well for themselves since their returns.

I'm not even sure what the point is in comparing their fan popularity to Batman and Superman. They're Batman and Superman. Most DC heroes don't get that level of fan support. Not even their fellow trinity member Wonder Woman.

[married guy]

Everyone likes Chain Lightning, no one likes Cobalt Blue.

HA!!
Mark Waid doesn't like Cobalt Blue!!

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

Do you think there are any major heroes who should be off limits for killing off?

Maybe Superman or Wonderwoman? I think the difference with Batman is that I'm not worried about having some sort of elseworlds miniseries or something going with Bruce Wayne showing up as Batman, so it doesn't matter to me as much if they shake it up in the main universe. There are also plenty of suitable in-universe replacements.

It's hard to say that Superman could be properly replaced with everything he's meant to represent, but I'd also be willing to be proven wrong.

I've always been a fan of the legacy aspect of DC though.

[Dboi2001]

I think that is the case for a lot of people sure but not me. My favorite Flash is Wally but I love them all, my favorite GL is Kyle with Guy a close second believe it or not...that being said I prefer Oliver Queen to Connor Hawke although I like them both. I prefer Steve Rogers to Bucky Barnes even though Bucky was my first Cap series. I am not one of those fans who's favorites what I grew up reading. I am not judging them, it just isn't me. I grew up with Mark Shaw Manhunter and love him but my favorite is Kate Spencer. I don't think it is a good idea to box anyone in and make absolute judgements.

Anyway, other than that one guy, I think most people in this thread like Barry just fine and will freely admit that there is no such thing as a bad character.

To me in general I prefer the classic heroes over legacy heroes. Not that they’re bad but there is just something about old time characters like Barry or Hal or Batman or Superman that hits a stride that some newer heroes don’t. Maybe it’s because of the simplicity of them and not being caught up in some pretentious pretenses. Hal is my favorite but I don’t have a clear cut second favorite. Kyle is alright but I’ve never thought much about him besides the whole artist thing, Jessica and Simon were pretty fun in their series but kinda forgettable in Justice League (besides Jessica kissing Batman...) though Jessica’s arc from Power Ring to Green Lantern was pretty great, Guy Gardner is Guy Gardner and John gets shafted so bad by comic writers (seriously why is it so hard to replicate what Dini did?). I’m also pretty sure I’m the only person under 40 who prefers Mar Vell over Carol (though I prefer Mahr Vehl the best from Ultimate Comics)

I’m definitely not trying to speak in absolutes or put you in a box but in discussion about broad topics there typically follows broad generalizations. I just know that is a common thing for someone’s favorite to be what they first imprint on

[Hol]

To me in general I prefer the classic heroes over legacy heroes. Not that they’re bad but there is just something about old time characters like Barry or Hal or Batman or Superman that hits a stride that some newer heroes don’t. Maybe it’s because of the simplicity of them and not being caught up in some pretentious pretenses. Hal is my favorite but I don’t have a clear cut second favorite. Kyle is alright but I’ve never thought much about him besides the whole artist thing, Jessica and Simon were pretty fun in their series but kinda forgettable in Justice League (besides Jessica kissing Batman...) though Jessica’s arc from Power Ring to Green Lantern was pretty great, Guy Gardner is Guy Gardner and John gets shafted so bad by comic writers (seriously why is it so hard to replicate what Dini did?). I’m also pretty sure I’m the only person under 40 who prefers Mar Vell over Carol (though I prefer Mahr Vehl the best from Ultimate Comics)

I’m definitely not trying to speak in absolutes or put you in a box but in discussion about broad topics there typically follows broad generalizations. I just know that is a common thing for someone’s favorite to be what they first imprint on

That is fair enough. There is no right or wrong reason to prefer something over another. I tend to go with the character with the more interesting personality and character arc. Which to me for DC is Wally West, Kyle Rayner, Jack Knight, Katar Hol (Hawkworld version), Oliver Queen. I love Johns GL run. LOVE it. But more for the plot and cool moments. There really wasn't much of a character arc for Hal Jordan past him coming back in Rebirth. Kyle grew as a character much more. Wally grew as a character MUCH more than Barry ever did and Oliver Queen has had a much more interesting story and personality than Connor or most DC characters. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman...they are icons and have some fun stories but nothing terribly interesting happens to them IMO. Because they are so popular DC can't take many chances with them.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

The fallacy in your stance is it's based entirely on hindsight.

You couldn't do the whole 'sidekick made good' story for Barry because there would be no reason to do it. Not only had Barry already been The Flash (and only The Flash) for decades in the comics, but he was shown to be superior to Jay whenever they were paired up. The reason we got that with Wally is because it naturally fit within the context of his story.

A lot of the stuff you mentioned wouldn't have happened had Barry remained as The Flash. Also, odds are neither Messner-Loebs or Waid would have been on the book since they only really got it because Wally was the lead. That's not to say they couldn't have successfully revamped Barry Post-Crisis, but the character and the mythology would have been very different from what it was with Wally.



Sure it is as long as it belongs to them first.

Some things would be different, nobody is debating it would be a carbon copy. But things like the speedforce, John’s reinvention of the rogues, stories like Terminal Velocity, the Max, Jay, Bart, Jesse Flash family dynamic all could have been done. Even great standalones like “Nobody Dies” if you just said it was Barry instead of Wally it wouldn’t effect the story. This idea that it needed to be Walky just isn’t that accurate. And yeah a lot of characters were fundamentally changed post crisis that I could absolutely see them making a Barry more of a laid back type

[Denkota]

Well Barry's parental issues were way more poignant after his return than Wallys parents arcs where his dad turned out to be a scumbag(Manhunter and sleaze) and her mother being a nag who drove Wally nuts then working and getting remarried and that's it. Nothing beyond that apart from his dadd always being a downer trying his best to stamp on Wally and crush him into the mud.

[Dboi2001]

Maybe Superman or Wonderwoman? I think the difference with Batman is that I'm not worried about having some sort of elseworlds miniseries or something going with Bruce Wayne showing up as Batman, so it doesn't matter to me as much if they shake it up in the main universe. There are also plenty of suitable in-universe replacements.

It's hard to say that Superman could be properly replaced with everything he's meant to represent, but I'd also be willing to be proven wrong.

I've always been a fan of the legacy aspect of DC though.

Does also include your favorite current superhero?

How about marvel? What marvel characters do you think should be off limits? If I had to pick one I’d say Steve Rogers. Now inversely characters who should never be resurrected Captain Mar-Vell is definitely one. As I said he is my favorite Captain Marvel but his death was so great in Death of Captain Marvel it’d be completely disrespectful to Starlin

EDIT: Also while I loved Dick Grayson in Batman and Robin he wasn't Batman. And I don't mean that as a knock on him but a big part of Batman and Robin was Dick being a round peg trying to fit in the square hole of being Batman. He never wanted to be Batman and didn't come off as Batman. It was incredibly interesting but I just don't know if I'd want Dick full time as Batman along with Bruce bring too iconic