Sony Universe of Marvel (Spider-Man) Characters Movie Thread

[Spider-Chan]

Getting back on topic, it looks like a Black Cat movie is back in the works with Felicity Jones being looked at to play a new version of Felicia Hardy (natch).

Would take it with a huge spoon of salt. The Hashtag Show has lately been very innacurate.

[Kevinroc]

See so much of this is blatantly wrong and completely misrepresents what happens in the movies, Peter isn't motivated by Tony, he's motivated by the simple need to do good and help people, the fact he wanted to immediately skip to saving the world and solving big problems doesn't really change that.
And saying Vulture was wrong and motivated by Tony is just wrong, like you almost didn't watch the movie, his motivation is to provide for his family and stealing is the only way he knows how to do it, and Tony's involvement begins and ends with the fact the company who started collaborating with Shield to create Damage Control had his name on it, if anything Vulture was wronged more by those agents who acted condescending towards him.
Then Mysterio wasn't even wronged, he was just crazy, went ballistic, got fired for being crazy and then in response decided to destroy cities and kill people, is the fact the person who fired him was richer than him supposed to make up for the fact he's a vain, egomaniac who kills people without a second thought?
Like what is gross about a guy like this getting his butt kicked?

Then the Ned thing I really don't care about.
And MJ you're not giving any reason why it's a problem, you're just saying you don't like it.
And with May to say she's just a sex object is nothing but blatantly false, there are maybe two brief easy to miss jokes about people finding her attractive in Homecoming, after that she just acts an supportive figure for Peter like May should

Peter in Homecoming outright says he wants to "be like you" when talking directly to Tony Stark. His motivation for lifting the big heavy rubble off of himself were words Tony Stark told him. His motivation is Iron Man. Homecoming makes that clear.

FFH continues this trend. Peter talks about how much he misses Tony Stark. Happy thinking about Tony as he watches Peter build a new suit with Tony's tech. Sure, they try to throw lip service about how Peter isn't Tony, but the subtext is right there that Peter is the heir apparent.

Vulture and Mysterio are coded as working class people who were wronged by Tony Stark, Peter's mentor. Tony screwed them, and they turned to crime as a result.

These movies revolve around Iron Man. And a lot of people don't acknowledge this.

The fact that the changes to the supporting cast are met with "I really don't care about" sort of says all that needs to be said.

[Kevinroc]

Peter beats up working class villains all the time in the comics. Has he ever tried to address the root problem of crime, or just been a vigilante? Theoretically he could use his powers and knowledge for more.

Anyway, I do agree the MCU Spider-Man films have been too Iron Man-centric. I don't mind them working together and helping each other out, but I feel Peter should be more independent, although not a total "I don't need anyone" loner.

As for Ganke, I don't get why they did that exactly. I like Ned, but he could've just been Ned from the comics as a friend of Peter's. I would like to see the Robertsons appear again.

The Aunt May thing is a double-edge sword IMO. I don't like the male gaze at all, but I also don't like how Hollywood acts like women over 40 aren't attractive. Really, if the MCU switched Hank's and Hope's ages with May's and Peter's, respectively, I think it would be a bit more accurate.

I don't totally get your point about MJ. The original version was way too "male gaze" for me. The MCU is moving away from that, which IMO is good. I don't totally like how their relationship started, but I don't hate. I'd prefer MJ not be reduced to a sex object either

Zendaya is a very attractive actress, so I don't quite get this idea that "the MCU is moving away from that" take. They should have had her and Peter as friends from the start, like in Ultimate. Peter could still have gone out with The Vulture's daughter and had that whole thing, while Aunt May tries to set up Peter and MJ. (As Uncle Ben did in Ultimate Spider-Man.)

But I think reducing MJ to a "sex object" is very dismissive of her character. And the objectification of women in comics is a list that includes far more than MJ. Yes, she's supposed to be very attractive in-universe, and that is a part of her character (she's hot and she knows it), but the MCU often goes too far in toning down the romance aspect of their movies to the point that they can often feel very chaste. And... that should not be a word used to describe Peter and MJ.

[Metro]

Peter in Homecoming outright says he wants to "be like you" when talking directly to Tony Stark. His motivation for lifting the big heavy rubble off of himself were words Tony Stark told him. His motivation is Iron Man. Homecoming makes that clear.

FFH continues this trend. Peter talks about how much he misses Tony Stark. Happy thinking about Tony as he watches Peter build a new suit with Tony's tech. Sure, they try to throw lip service about how Peter isn't Tony, but the subtext is right there that Peter is the heir apparent.

Vulture and Mysterio are coded as working class people who were wronged by Tony Stark, Peter's mentor. Tony screwed them, and they turned to crime as a result.

These movies revolve around Iron Man. And a lot of people don't acknowledge this.

The fact that the changes to the supporting cast are met with "I really don't care about" sort of says all that needs to be said.

You're still doing a lot of what I said earlier and misrepresenting a lot things.
Vulture wasn't wronged by Tony, he was wronged by people who happened to work for Tony's company, nothing Tony did himself lead to Vulture being who he was.
Mysterio again was just crazy, he was a vain, self serving, ego maniac, he was fired for being a vain, self serving, ego maniac any notion he was wronged by anyone besides himself is a clear false narrative that ignores all known facts, he's not coded as working class, he's coded as a con man who lies and kills to get what he wants.

The fact Peter looks up to Tony as anyone who lives a world where the man has repeatedly protected them dangerous forces would doesn't change the fact Peter's reason for being a hero have nothing to do with him, that while he may have wanted to be a big shot superhero that was never his main motivation.

And I said I don't care about the Ganke Ned thing, because I simply don't, neither of them are anywhere near being my favorite Spider-Man characters, when someone I actually care about gets changed in a way I'm against then I'll find it relevant

[Kevinroc]

You're still doing a lot of what I said earlier and misrepresenting a lot things.
Vulture wasn't wronged by Tony, he was wronged by people who happened to work for Tony's company, nothing Tony did himself lead to Vulture being who he was.
Mysterio again was just crazy, he was a vain, self serving, ego maniac, he was fired for being a vain, self serving, ego maniac any notion he was wronged by anyone besides himself is a clear false narrative that ignores all known facts, he's not coded as working class, he's coded as a con man who lies and kills to get what he wants.

The fact Peter looks up to Tony as anyone who lives a world where the man has repeatedly protected them dangerous forces would doesn't change the fact Peter's reason for being a hero have nothing to do with him, that while he may have wanted to be a big shot superhero that was never his main motivation.

And I said I don't care about the Ganke Ned thing, because I simply don't, neither of them are anywhere near being my favorite Spider-Man characters, when someone I actually care about gets changed in a way I'm against then I'll find it relevant

"Vulture wasn't wronged by Tony, but by people who worked for Tony" is not the hill you think it is. As far as Mysterio goes, a "vain, self serving, ego maniac" are also words that can describe Tony Stark. The fact is both of these villains were motivated by their hatred of Tony Stark. And trying to reduce it to "he's crazy" is ignoring the film's very explicit text.

As for Peter, he outright states "I just wanted to be like you" to Tony Stark in Homecoming. What motivates him to lift the big heavy rubble later on? The words of Tony Stark. The text is very clear on this. And trying to say "no, he's still Peter with his own motivations" doesn't really add up with what is shown on screen.

This is Spider-Man in name only.

[CosmiComic]

Maybe through Daily Bugle articles? Although there have been stories of Spidey being more involved in people's lives, when he can.

That's possible. using his journalistic connections to expose exploitation and mistreatment of the working class by governments and corporations could lead him to actually help the working class on a wider level. And despite Tony being a self-serving jerk in the MCU, so far he seemed to be the only one thinking about actually changing the way he does things, unlike a lot of other heroes

I think it's weird enough that Bugle people are going to high school with Peter.

If they were going to stay true to the Ultimate comics than they should've just had it be Zendaya.

While it is weird, I did like him having someone he can talk to about his life as Spider-Man. Maybe MJ could've been enough for that

I think the problem is she can still look like Marisa Tomei but you don't need to call that much attention to it and give her more meat to work with.

It always feels like she's unfairly penalized just for being attractive, like everything else about her character is somehow negated or made less relevant just because she's good-looking and confident about it, and that that has to be seen as a bad thing.

I do agree May could be given more of a meatier role

As for MJ, I really doubt she's penalized for being attractive. That sounds like a rather privileged statement. All female comics characters are drawn to be attractive, except older ones like May, and any one which doesn't always gets sexist backlash. I always felt like Peter's initial attraction to her was too "male gaze". So I don't think I really need that in the MCU. And I don't get why she has to be stereotypically attractive, but it's wrong when that happens to May.

A heist movie?

I guess

[Frontier]

Vulture wasn't wronged by Tony, he was wronged by people who happened to work for Tony's company, nothing Tony did himself lead to Vulture being who he was.

That was directly linked to Tony Stark by association.

Mysterio again was just crazy, he was a vain, self serving, ego maniac, he was fired for being a vain, self serving, ego maniac any notion he was wronged by anyone besides himself is a clear false narrative that ignores all known facts, he's not coded as working class, he's coded as a con man who lies and kills to get what he wants.

We don't really get enough insight to know exactly what Beck's situation was. We can assume based on what we see of him afterwards, but, again, his motivation is directly tied to Tony Stark and, in his eyes, Tony screwing him over.

The fact Peter looks up to Tony as anyone who lives a world where the man has repeatedly protected them dangerous forces would doesn't change the fact Peter's reason for being a hero have nothing to do with him, that while he may have wanted to be a big shot superhero that was never his main motivation.

Then the movies should've placed less emphasis on Tony's impact on Peter, because it gets muddled in his hero worship of Stark and then having to own up to his legacy that shouldn't even involve Spider-Man to begin with.

And I said I don't care about the Ganke Ned thing, because I simply don't, neither of them are anywhere near being my favorite Spider-Man characters, when someone I actually care about gets changed in a way I'm against then I'll find it relevant

I like Ganke and think Jacob Batalon is very likeable but it's kind of problematic that they take a supporting character from Miles Morales and foist it on Peter Parker to the point where a Miles Morales movie has to downplay Ganke because another movie used him without the name.

That's possible. using his journalistic connections to expose exploitation and mistreatment of the working class by governments and corporations could lead him to actually help the working class on a wider level. And despite Tony being a self-serving jerk in the MCU, so far he seemed to be the only one thinking about actually changing the way he does things, unlike a lot of other heroes

Well, Tony kind of had to change the way he did things because he kept screwing it up and having to fix his own mistakes. But also different character, different kind of hero.

As for MJ, I really doubt she's penalized for being attractive. That sounds like a rather privileged statement. All female comics characters are drawn to be attractive, except older ones like May, and any one which doesn't always gets sexist backlash. I always felt like Peter's initial attraction to her was too "male gaze". So I don't think I really need that in the MCU. And I don't get why she has to be stereotypically attractive, but it's wrong when that happens to May.

I mean, if you've seen some of the "critique's"s of MJ's character circa-BND when they were trying to downplay or ignore her in favor of other characters, it was a common complaint. But I don't see the issue with a character being attractive, it was never what made Peter fall in love with her, and it's just part of the character.

I don't have a problem with Aunt May being Marisa Tomei, I have a problem with them not doing much with her. I thought Sally Field felt more in-line with the character but that's another thing.

[CosmiComic]

Zendaya is a very attractive actress, so I don't quite get this idea that "the MCU is moving away from that" take. They should have had her and Peter as friends from the start, like in Ultimate. Peter could still have gone out with The Vulture's daughter and had that whole thing, while Aunt May tries to set up Peter and MJ. (As Uncle Ben did in Ultimate Spider-Man.)

But I think reducing MJ to a "sex object" is very dismissive of her character. And the objectification of women in comics is a list that includes far more than MJ. Yes, she's supposed to be very attractive in-universe, and that is a part of her character (she's hot and she knows it), but the MCU often goes too far in toning down the romance aspect of their movies to the point that they can often feel very chaste. And... that should not be a word used to describe Peter and MJ.

I don't comment on actors' attractiveness, but my point is, why is MJ supposed to be sexualized and romanticized, but May isn't? Neither should be. And how unchaste do you want their romance to be? Isn't that objectification? MJ is only attractive in the comics because all love interests are forced to be so

I still don't get why May has to set them up. He and MJ should've just been dating starting in Homecoming.

[Frontier]

I don't comment on actors' attractiveness, but my point is, why is MJ supposed to be sexualized and romanticized, but May isn't? Neither should be. And how unchaste do you want their romance to be? Isn't that objectification? MJ is only attractive in the comics because all love interests are forced to be so

Because MJ and May are two different characters with different roles in the series? It's like expecting Gwen Stacy to be Black Cat.

I don't think anyone is "forced" to be attractive by virtue of being a love interest, Peter's had girls who were more normal or down-to-Earth, but that would probably get into the nitty gritty of visual mediums and their depiction of people and what people like to see in fiction that we could spend all day talking about .

I still don't get why May has to set them up. He and MJ should've just been dating starting in Homecoming.

I think they at least should've been closer in Homecoming.

[CosmiComic]

Well, Tony kind of had to change the way he did things because he kept screwing it up and having to fix his own mistakes. But also different character, different kind of hero.

yeah, but it shows he's actually willing to tackle problems in different ways, including through upstream solutions. Maybe Peter could try something like that.

I mean, if you've seen some of the "critique's"s of MJ's character circa-BND when they were trying to downplay or ignore her in favor of other characters, it was a common complaint. But I don't see the issue with a character being attractive, it was never what made Peter fall in love with her, and it's just part of the character.

Isn't it a problem though when she's subjected to the male gaze? Isn't that what the whole "face it, tiger" thing was?

I don't have a problem with Aunt May being Marisa Tomei, I have a problem with them not doing much with her. I thought Sally Field felt more in-line with the character but that's another thing.

May could do more. I agree about that.

Because MJ and May are two different characters with different roles in the series? It's like expecting Gwen Stacy to be Black Cat.

I know they're different, but that doesn't mean May has to be stereotyped as unattractive because she's older, and vice versa.

I don't think anyone is "forced" to be attractive by virtue of being a love interest, Peter's had girls who were more normal or down-to-Earth, but that would probably get into the nitty gritty of visual mediums and their depiction of people and what people like to see in fiction that we could spend all day talking about .

Even if they're down to earth, they're still all generically attractive. Peter dating a stereotypically plain looking woman would be much more

I think they at least should've been closer in Homecoming.

I would've replaced the romance between Peter & Liz with one between Peter & MJ in Homecoming

[Frontier]

yeah, but it shows he's actually willing to tackle problems in different ways, including through upstream solutions. Maybe Peter could try something like that.

Well, Peter tackes problems in different ways, although I don't think they're the kind of problems you're invested in seeing him deal with.

Isn't it a problem though when she's subjected to the male gaze? Isn't that what the whole "face it, tiger" thing was?

The Face it Tiger scene was, honestly, pretty tasteful. I mean, she was fully clothed in a way that complimented her figure, but I don't think it was what you think of as the "male gaze" (I could be wrong).

I know they're different, but that doesn't mean May has to be stereotyped as unattractive because she's older, and vice versa.

Is she stereotyped...?

Even if they're down to earth, they're still all generically attractive. Peter dating a stereotypically plain looking woman would be much more

So you'd prefer Deb Whitman?

[CosmiComic]

Well, Peter tackes problems in different ways, although I don't think they're the kind of problems you're invested in seeing him deal with.

What do you mean? My point is he just beats up criminals in the standard superhero way, but Idk if he goes further than that. It doesn't inherently make him an ally of the working class

The Face it Tiger scene was, honestly, pretty tasteful. I mean, she was fully clothed in a way that complimented her figure, but I don't think it was what you think of as the "male gaze" (I could be wrong).

Perhaps, but I've always felt she was created to be the "hot girl falls in love with nerdy guy" cliche. So I'm not bothered by MCU MJ not fitting that profile

Is she stereotyped...?

Well, she's normally portrayed as very old despite being his aunt, not his grandmother. But I'm speaking more to general societal standards towards older women.

So you'd prefer Deb Whitman?

I'm not super familiar with her because I haven't read many comics with her. Is she even still around?

[Metro]

"Vulture wasn't wronged by Tony, but by people who worked for Tony" is not the hill you think it is. As far as Mysterio goes, a "vain, self serving, ego maniac" are also words that can describe Tony Stark. The fact is both of these villains were motivated by their hatred of Tony Stark. And trying to reduce it to "he's crazy" is ignoring the film's very explicit text.

As for Peter, he outright states "I just wanted to be like you" to Tony Stark in Homecoming. What motivates him to lift the big heavy rubble later on? The words of Tony Stark. The text is very clear on this. And trying to say "no, he's still Peter with his own motivations" doesn't really add up with what is shown on screen.

This is Spider-Man in name only.

You're the one ignoring what's in the films Tony's involvement with Vulture is indirect at best, Vulture himself is not motivated by any hatred of Tony, he's motivated primarily by making money to support his family, if his motivation had anything to do with hating Tony, why does he go out of his way keep himself from catching the attention of people like the Avengers? He has one motivation, money that's all.
And with Mysterio him being a crazy ego maniac is exactly what the film shows, the second he's revealed they make no pretense in pretending he's sympathetic or was dealt a bad hand, just his own ego is what got him to where is, the flashback he has is a scene in Captain America Civil War, you compare the scene in the movie to the flashback it's obvious Mysterio is just making himself out to be the victim because he's crazy, he even flat out says thats why Tony fired him, for being unstable, so no I'm not ignoring the film's text they lay it very clearly why Mysterio is the way he is.
And again you keep going back to Peter saying he wanted to be like Tony, and why wouldn't he? Tony's pretty much the world's most popular celebrity, probably the world's most accomplished scientist, and a superhero on top of all that, of course Peter would want to be like him, but that's not Peter's motivation Peter was already Spider-Man for nearly half a year before meeting Tony, he says very plainly in Civil War that he does what he does because, he'd feel guilty having the abilities he has and not using them to help people, the fact he looks up Tony doesn't change that, and you say it's the words of Tony that motivate him in the end but you keep ignoring that it's not about the fact Tony said them, it's about what he said, that if Peter was nothing without the suit then he shouldn't have it, that wasn't Peter being motivated by the words of his mentor that was Peter remembering he's already capable on his own and that he's Spider-Man regardless of any hi-tech suit.

And you say I'm ignoring the text of the film

[Frontier]

What do you mean? My point is he just beats up criminals in the standard superhero way, but Idk if he goes further than that. It doesn't inherently make him an ally of the working class

He's creative in fighting bad guys.

Perhaps, but I've always felt she was created to be the "hot girl falls in love with nerdy guy" cliche. So I'm not bothered by MCU MJ not fitting that profile

That's more what she ended up as and less what she was designed to be. But even then by the time she fell for Peter he looked like a hunk.

Well, she's normally portrayed as very old despite being his aunt, not his grandmother. But I'm speaking more to general societal standards towards older women.

And I'm talking more in how Aunt May is used within the franchise.

I'm not super familiar with her because I haven't read many comics with her. Is she even still around?

She'll probably come back when you least expect it...

You're the one ignoring what's in the films Tony's involvement with Vulture is indirect at best, Vulture himself is not motivated by any hatred of Tony, he's motivated primarily by making money to support his family, if his motivation had anything to do with hating Tony, why does he go out of his way keep himself from catching the attention of people like the Avengers? He has one motivation, money that's all.
And with Mysterio him being a crazy ego maniac is exactly what the film shows, the second he's revealed they make no pretense in pretending he's sympathetic or was dealt a bad hand, just his own ego is what got him to where is, the flashback he has is a scene in Captain America Civil War, you compare the scene in the movie to the flashback it's obvious Mysterio is just making himself out to be the victim because he's crazy, he even flat out says thats why Tony fired him, for being unstable, so no I'm not ignoring the film's text they lay it very clearly why Mysterio is the way he is.
And again you keep going back to Peter saying he wanted to be like Tony, and why wouldn't he? Tony's pretty much the world's most popular celebrity, probably the world's most accomplished scientist, and a superhero on top of all that, of course Peter would want to be like him, but that's not Peter's motivation Peter was already Spider-Man for nearly half a year before meeting Tony, he says very plainly in Civil War that he does what he does because, he'd feel guilty having the abilities he has and not using them to help people, the fact he looks up Tony doesn't change that, and you say it's the words of Tony that motivate him in the end but you keep ignoring that it's not about the fact Tony said them, it's about what he said, that if Peter was nothing without the suit then he shouldn't have it, that wasn't Peter being motivated by the words of his mentor that was Peter remembering he's already capable on his own and that he's Spider-Man regardless of any hi-tech suit.

And you say I'm ignoring the text of the film

I mean, Vulture is motivated by something Tony Stark did to his crew. I think he even mentions Stark at some point during a rant on his motives about how nobody cares about the little guy and how that inspired him to become a criminal.

I don't think they go too deeply into it to really believe one way or another why Beck got fired but, whatever the case, he had a beef with Tony Stark.

In the context of the MCU the hero-worship made sense, it's just from a character perspective it didn't really serve what Spider-Man is supposed to be about and detracted from stuff that's supposed to be about Spider-Man.

Whatever his words, it was still Tony Stark that said it. That's still the words of a mentor.

[Mistah K88]

That's an over exaggeration of her actions in Homecoming, she was just at worst a sarcastic loner, and is never actively malicious nor does Peter ever take anything she says or does personally.

Peter doesn't even take MCU Flash seriously, it doesn't mean that he isn't a jerk. All of MJ's interactions with Peter were negative, whether it be calling him a loser, flipping him off, or mocking him in detention as she likes to "sketch people in crisis". Peter brushes it off like a trooper (Ned calls her out a bit though), but I can't believe that he would be in love with her all of a sudden the next movie. They might as well have said that Peter and Flash were all of a sudden best buddies too.

When did that Morbius trailer come out?...I almost forgot that they were still going through with it.