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  1. #361

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I hope he's a good detective in this movie.

    Unless this is like Long Halloween where he needs to constantly screw up before he actually learns how to be a detective.
    I won't spoiler Imposter it for you if you havent read it yet but i am pretty sure the book focuses more about how much Batman is emotionally vulnerable. The story also discover his trauma towards his parents death. I don't thin any of the comics have done that rather more cold hearted emotionless character. I know people expect to read some mysterious myth villain group like what Morrison and Snyder did. Some people also expect Batman to be almost perfect because he prepares for 'everything'. Which Zack Snyder already kinda did against Superman.

    But this comic looked into a whole new different direction of the character and honestly I really wouldnt mind that.
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  2. #362
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    To be fair, for the crime that haunts him the most, the answer kinda is to punch it. There's no detective work that will prevent random muggings. Okay, so punching crime isn't the answer for muggings so much as fixing the local economy and having strong safety nets, welfare systems, and rehabilitation available so people never get that desperate in the first place...but that makes for a less entertaining movie.
    I guess it depends how you see him envisioning his War on Crime. Because when I see a guy declare to wage war on all criminals, I think he would probably train to deal with more than just muggers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vishop View Post
    I won't spoiler Imposter it for you if you havent read it yet but i am pretty sure the book focuses more about how much Batman is emotionally vulnerable. The story also discover his trauma towards his parents death. I don't thin any of the comics have done that rather more cold hearted emotionless character. I know people expect to read some mysterious myth villain group like what Morrison and Snyder did. Some people also expect Batman to be almost perfect because he prepares for 'everything'. Which Zack Snyder already kinda did against Superman.

    But this comic looked into a whole new different direction of the character and honestly I really wouldnt mind that.
    I think people are kind of tired of coldhearted emotionless Batman, but I guess it depends how you execute it. And maybe without a Batfamily or friend group for him to treat terribly.

  3. #363
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I'm also no fan of Morrison. He's got good ideas, but the execution (least of the stories I read before making a decision to keep away from his work) is a confusing, muddled dreck. If you need to reread a book to try and figure out what happened, it wasn't good imo.

    But I get it, you want brighter happy Batman that gets into the crazier comic booky stuff. I wouldn't mind that, I just wouldn't want it to look like the eye straining garishness of Speed Racer or have a Morrisonian plot where viewers go back to the theater not because they liked it but because they need to see it again just so they can understand it well enough to try and review the plot.

    Anyway, I don't really care. So all the Batman movies have been dark - look at the MCU heroes, not a single one of them has ever had a dark movie. And no, none of the movies of the MCU some fans call dark ever has been. Dark superhero movies frankly are rare. And there's a difference between violent or crude R rated movies and dark. Most of the field is light movies, most somewhat comedic. So if Batman never gets to be that in live action, I'm actually kind of cool with that. He's sort of the most unique that way, by being almost the only gritty game in town.
    Right, I didn't mean a story written like Morrison but one that ratchets up the superheroics as opposed to dialing it all the way down trying to make it ultra realistic.

    MCU is a different beast, and yes they will never go dark like Batman because that isn't their aesthetic, but Batman is the other side of the coin where it is always dark because it is his aesthetic.

    I guess the only recent example that I can point to is Batman Universe for inspiration.


  4. #364
    Spectacular Member Micael's Avatar
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    I hope he's a good detective that finds his match and has to step up his game rather than him coming up less competent and having to "learn on the job". Can't see Bruce believing he could take on Organized crime without doing research and investigation, fighting crime with his "fists" only work if you know who to punch.

  5. #365
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Right, I didn't mean a story written like Morrison but one that ratchets up the superheroics as opposed to dialing it all the way down trying to make it ultra realistic.

    MCU is a different beast, and yes they will never go dark like Batman because that isn't their aesthetic, but Batman is the other side of the coin where it is always dark because it is his aesthetic.

    I guess the only recent example that I can point to is Batman Universe for inspiration.
    I get that, but like you said, the MCU is a different beast with a different aesthetic. So is the post Snyder DCEU. Batman is the other side of the coin to literally every other superhero film in recent history, and probably for years to come. So I kinda am against him in film going in the same direction as everything else. Basically it just feels like people are asking that Batman should feel like every other superhero movie we're getting now. And I like the contrast.

  6. #366
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I get that, but like you said, the MCU is a different beast with a different aesthetic. So is the post Snyder DCEU. Batman is the other side of the coin to literally every other superhero film in recent history, and probably for years to come. So I kinda am against him in film going in the same direction as everything else. Basically it just feels like people are asking that Batman should feel like every other superhero movie we're getting now. And I like the contrast.
    ahh, I see what you mean; but what if we got another film that is separate kinda like Into The Spider-Verse?

    Even the Batman animated films are super dour, I would love a Spider-Verse style where it is colorful and fun (and not fun like the Batman Lego Movie)

  7. #367
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    ahh, I see what you mean; but what if we got another film that is separate kinda like Into The Spider-Verse?

    Even the Batman animated films are super dour, I would love a Spider-Verse style where it is colorful and fun (and not fun like the Batman Lego Movie)
    The Adam West animated movies, the Batman Unlimited movies, Batman Ninja, Batman vs The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Scooby Doo Meets Batman The Brave and the Bold. Just because the mainline animated movies are dour doesn't mean all the animated Batman movies are. Even if excluding the Lego stuff. Which seems unfair.

    There's lighthearted Batman content if you know where to look, no reason that the only current superhero they're willing to make darker live action movies of needs to lighten up like the rest of the genre is right now. Let him be the one hero still delivering films of that type. He's good at it, and no other superhero movie is going to go there.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    To be fair, for the crime that haunts him the most, the answer kinda is to punch it. There's no detective work that will prevent random muggings. Okay, so punching crime isn't the answer for muggings so much as fixing the local economy and having strong safety nets, welfare systems, and rehabilitation available so people never get that desperate in the first place...but that makes for a less entertaining movie.
    Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it.

    I suppose it does depend to an extent on whether his parent's killer is caught as well. If he hasn't been, then I can understand Bruce prioritizing detective work in his training as well, because he hopes to one day find his parent's killer (or at any rate, the failure of the authorities to identify the killer haunts him and so he wants to bring other killer's to justice to give their victim's families closure). In Secret Origins # 6, one of my favorite retellings of Batman's origin, Bruce trains to be a detective because he implicitly hopes to someday find his parent's killer.

    But when I look at most Post-Crisis versions of the early years, it does seem like Batman starts out wanting to stop street crime and gradually progresses up the totem pole of the Mob - with Carmine Falcone being the ultimate target of course. And sure, there's definitely a degree of detective work involved. But it's usually at a fairly basic level - he beats up lowlifes to gather intel and leads so he knows where to strike. He isn't necessarily running a full-fledged criminal investigation where he needs to identify a serial killer and uncover his motives.

    This is what the TLH animated movie brought out so well. Batman has some basic detective skills, but he's not a detective the way Gordon is, which is why his approach isn't bringing results on the Holiday case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I hope he's a good detective that finds his match and has to step up his game rather than him coming up less competent and having to "learn on the job". Can't see Bruce believing he could take on Organized crime without doing research and investigation, fighting crime with his "fists" only work if you know who to punch.
    He's not fighting crime just with his fists...there's very much brainpower involved as well! But his brain hasn't been trained yet in the specific disciplines that would allow him to instantly crack cases like the Holiday killings or whatever Riddler is up to in the new movie.

  9. #369

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I'm also no fan of Morrison. He's got good ideas, but the execution (least of the stories I read before making a decision to keep away from his work) is a confusing, muddled dreck. If you need to reread a book to try and figure out what happened, it wasn't good imo.

    But I get it, you want brighter happy Batman that gets into the crazier comic booky stuff. I wouldn't mind that, I just wouldn't want it to look like the eye straining garishness of Speed Racer or have a Morrisonian plot where viewers go back to the theater not because they liked it but because they need to see it again just so they can understand it well enough to try and review the plot.

    Anyway, I don't really care. So all the Batman movies have been dark - look at the MCU heroes, not a single one of them has ever had a dark movie. And no, none of the movies of the MCU some fans call dark ever has been. Dark superhero movies frankly are rare. And there's a difference between violent or crude R rated movies and dark. Most of the field is light movies, most somewhat comedic. So if Batman never gets to be that in live action, I'm actually kind of cool with that. He's sort of the most unique that way, by being almost the only gritty game in town.
    Yeah, that's how I feel on the subject of lighthearted vs dark Batman movies. Whether people like it or not the average superhero movie is on the lighter side so Batman movies being darker helps them stand out in a crowded marketplace. And I've always wondered why the conversation on superhero movie tones is always so one-sided.

    I don't think I've ever seen any Spider-Man fans say they're sick of his movies being on the lighter spectrum of comic book films. MCU fans don't seem to be in a rush for a gritty take on the franchise. Superman fans got mad when MOS was more somber, "why are they trying to make him like Batman!" was a common complaint. As if Batman has a patent on somber, gritty CBM's, flipping that around would mean a light Batman movie would be WB "trying to make him like Superman."

    Darkness is pretty much the general public's preferred take on Batman at this point, not that they hate lighter incarnations but all of his most popular incarnations have been dark. The Adam West show is iconic but let's remember it was a fad and only lasted 2 years. The Schumacher films almost killed the franchise on film and lighter cartoons like The Batman and Brave and the Bold as well received as they may be are nowhere near as beloved as the darker TAS.

  10. #370
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I don't really need a Batman movie to be like the MCU. Batman: Universe was like a Fever Dream and Bendis doesn't have a very good voice for Bruce in my opinion.

    But like Batman: The Animated Series wasn't necessarily depressingly dark and was still all ages at the end of the day I feel like, even with the aesthetic and mood people expect from Batman, there are a lot of different ways to play him and his universe.
    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    But when I look at most Post-Crisis versions of the early years, it does seem like Batman starts out wanting to stop street crime and gradually progresses up the totem pole of the Mob - with Carmine Falcone being the ultimate target of course. And sure, there's definitely a degree of detective work involved. But it's usually at a fairly basic level - he beats up lowlifes to gather intel and leads so he knows where to strike. He isn't necessarily running a full-fledged criminal investigation where he needs to identify a serial killer and uncover his motives.

    This is what the TLH animated movie brought out so well. Batman has some basic detective skills, but he's not a detective the way Gordon is, which is why his approach isn't bringing results on the Holiday case.
    Although one could make the argument that, if he was really thinking ahead, he probably would have expected to need those skills.

  11. #371
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  12. #372
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it.

    I suppose it does depend to an extent on whether his parent's killer is caught as well. If he hasn't been, then I can understand Bruce prioritizing detective work in his training as well, because he hopes to one day find his parent's killer (or at any rate, the failure of the authorities to identify the killer haunts him and so he wants to bring other killer's to justice to give their victim's families closure). In Secret Origins # 6, one of my favorite retellings of Batman's origin, Bruce trains to be a detective because he implicitly hopes to someday find his parent's killer.

    But when I look at most Post-Crisis versions of the early years, it does seem like Batman starts out wanting to stop street crime and gradually progresses up the totem pole of the Mob - with Carmine Falcone being the ultimate target of course. And sure, there's definitely a degree of detective work involved. But it's usually at a fairly basic level - he beats up lowlifes to gather intel and leads so he knows where to strike. He isn't necessarily running a full-fledged criminal investigation where he needs to identify a serial killer and uncover his motives.

    This is what the TLH animated movie brought out so well. Batman has some basic detective skills, but he's not a detective the way Gordon is, which is why his approach isn't bringing results on the Holiday case.
    Can you do me a favor? Don't bring up that animated movie when responding to me. I get that everyone else loves it and thinks it's so much better than the source material, but I didn't like it and thought it was legitimately the worse so called "adaptation" ever. I don't want to be reminded of it when discussing other movies. I was so thoroughly disappointed by it. My favorite comic book story of all time, and the adaptation felt like an insult, like it was specifically made by and for people who never liked the story to begin with. Which I guess is why it's popular. Just, don't bring it up in posts addressing me please.

  13. #373
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Can you do me a favor? Don't bring up that animated movie when responding to me. I get that everyone else loves it and thinks it's so much better than the source material, but I didn't like it and thought it was legitimately the worse so called "adaptation" ever. I don't want to be reminded of it when discussing other movies. I was so thoroughly disappointed by it. My favorite comic book story of all time, and the adaptation felt like an insult, like it was specifically made by and for people who never liked the story to begin with. Which I guess is why it's popular. Just, don't bring it up in posts addressing me please.
    I think that sounds more like the Injustice movie than the LH adaption in my opinion.

  14. #374
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think that sounds more like the Injustice movie than the LH adaption in my opinion.
    To each their own, I didn't like the changes that they made. It just seemed like they really didn't want to adapt the story to begin with, were forced to by the higher ups, and they decided to do a loose adaptation that might as well have been an original story. I get that I'm uniquely alone on this forum in disliking what they did, how drastically they changed, and in my opinion, mangled my favorite Batman story. Whatever, to each their own. Whether anyone agrees or not it doesn't change the fact that I didn't like it, didn't enjoy it, and don't want to be reminded of it when discussing other future movies that I want to look forward to and do hope I can enjoy. I can't prevent people from discussing it, but I can ask that they don't bring it up when quoting me. It's just people talking about a movie that completely disappointed you as something they want to see repeated in the new movie, kind of dampens my interest in said new movie.

  15. #375
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    To each their own, I didn't like the changes that they made. It just seemed like they really didn't want to adapt the story to begin with, were forced to by the higher ups, and they decided to do a loose adaptation that might as well have been an original story. I get that I'm uniquely alone on this forum in disliking what they did, how drastically they changed, and in my opinion, mangled my favorite Batman story. Whatever, to each their own. Whether anyone agrees or not it doesn't change the fact that I didn't like it, didn't enjoy it, and don't want to be reminded of it when discussing other future movies that I want to look forward to and do hope I can enjoy. I can't prevent people from discussing it, but I can ask that they don't bring it up when quoting me. It's just people talking about a movie that completely disappointed you as something they want to see repeated in the new movie, kind of dampens my interest in said new movie.
    Personally I just recently watched it so it's fresh in my head and I keep being reminded of it every time I see more from this movie .

    I didn't really get the sense that they didn't care for the story at all. Like, from interviews and the work they seemed to put into it from a production standpoint, even if they did make creative changes or liberties it seems like they tried to stay true to the spirit and core of the story. While Injustice just felt like a cash-grab.

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