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  1. #301
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    It was basically as advertised: stuff on the CW show, and those radio show voiceovers. That was all that was advertised and that was all that was delivered. I had hoped maybe there might be some comic news but there really wasn't and that was pretty consistent with the whole event across the board. Comics are second fiddle now to other media on an official level. I'm not thrilled with this but we were trending that way for quite some time now. Comics just aren't as lucrative. We'll just get news on that the regular way, through sites like these. But again they didn't promise anything that they didn't do.
    On top of that, all the upheaval at AT&T and DC means we were damned unlikely to hear much about the comics anyway. They likely haven't had the time to establish any kind of plan, much less get it to a point where they can talk about it publicly. Maybe if sh*t hadn't hit the fan they'd have had something to talk about but as it is? They probably have creators lined up for the next six months and little beyond that.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  2. #302
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Ah yes, DKR. The fight where Bruce gets a ton of help from Robin and Green Arrow while slapping Clark around. It's almost as if Clark showed up just to talk and wasn't taking the fight seriously. It's basically an adult letting a child work out some frustration on him. He doesn't even care. Bruce whines about how he could have killed Clark with a different tincture and it doesn't register to that senile idiot that Clark is purposefully negating all of his advantages and standing in front of Batman. Hell, Clark is glad Bruce survived and is content to let him feel like he got a win by letting him remain in obscurity. His smile at the end may as well have said "good for you, little guy."

    Miller was wrong. Batman isn't right and he only won because Clark let him. Christ, the challenge is essentially Clark setting the date from the sky using heat vision and Bruce has no answer to that. If he was so goddamn concerned with winning, he could have just microwaved Bruce's mind from space with heat vision or pushed buildings over him. It's so goddamn stupid because the fight demands Clark has no idea how to fight, how his powers work, who Batman is or just about anything that makes him Superman. It's like putting Muhammad Ali in his prime in the ring with today's George Foreman and then Ali just walks over to Foreman, holds his fist up and then rams his head into it as hard as he can and everyone congratulates Foreman for the knockout of a century.

    But alright, man. Bruce really won the argument/fight and Miller stuck it to us hard. That book falls apart right after the Joker dies because Miller didn't know how to write Superman as a character, much less an antagonist.
    Haha I used to hate the hell out of DKR like you Robanker, but one “good” thing about all the evil Superman stories is something like DKR feels downright respectable towards Supes these days. Supes is not happy about where he’s at, but he’s let the politicians box him into a corner where he felt like he either had to bend the knee or go to war with the government, and he wasn’t willing to go full fascist. He gets a few great moments himself like when he stops the nuke or his first appearance in Gotham where he’s portrayed with awe. He loses the big fight not because of Bruce’s mech suit or even his Kryptonite but because he’s weakened by the nuke and isn’t willing to kill Bruce, which Bruce exploits in a manner that actually feels intelligent instead of lazy crap like “super pills” or “Kryptonite gum”. And at the end he redeemed himself by keeping Bats’ secret survival to himself, which he learned because Bats made a mistake and didn’t time things perfectly (something like that would never happen now).

    But above all I’ve come around to it because it basically ruined the idea of Superman as the happy go lucky agent of the USA government. After DKR Superman doing the government’s bidding has pretty uniformly been portrayed as a bad thing, with writers willing to gradually let Clark come into conflict with the government/the law again, as he did in his debut, in order to counteract the stereotype of him being a government stooge. And I’m 100% in favor of him being the lapdog portrayed as a bad thing. So I like the DKR now again, as I did when I first read it, after a long time of hating it for how it affected his portrayal.

  3. #303
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Haha I used to hate the hell out of DKR like you Robanker, but one “good” thing about all the evil Superman stories is something like DKR feels downright respectable towards Supes these days. Supes is not happy about where he’s at, but he’s let the politicians box him into a corner where he felt like he either had to bend the knee or go to war with the government, and he wasn’t willing to go full fascist. He gets a few great moments himself like when he stops the nuke or his first appearance in Gotham where he’s portrayed with awe. He loses the big fight not because of Bruce’s mech suit or even his Kryptonite but because he’s weakened by the nuke and isn’t willing to kill Bruce, which Bruce exploits in a manner that actually feels intelligent instead of lazy crap like “super pills” or “Kryptonite gum”. And at the end he redeemed himself by keeping Bats’ secret survival to himself, which he learned because Bats made a mistake and didn’t time things perfectly (something like that would never happen now).

    But above all I’ve come around to it because it basically ruined the idea of Superman as the happy go lucky agent of the USA government. After DKR Superman doing the government’s bidding has pretty uniformly been portrayed as a bad thing, with writers willing to gradually let Clark come into conflict with the government/the law again, as he did in his debut, in order to counteract the stereotype of him being a government stooge. And I’m 100% in favor of him being the lapdog portrayed as a bad thing. So I like the DKR now again, as I did when I first read it, after a long time of hating it for how it affected his portrayal.
    I love the first half of DKR. I just think it falls apart and not just as a fan of Superman, but because it doesn't even respect the rules it sets up and tries to play with. As a construct, Superman is strawmanned which robs Bruce the true feeling of victory. It's like winning a fight and finding out someone paid the other guy to lose. Yeah, you won*. The asterisk will always be there.

    Chris Priest wrote a good moment in Deathstroke with respect to Superman and the government, but DKR is a pretty flawed piece. To be honest, I'm not in love with Watchmen either, but that's more its legacy than the work itself. With DKR, the work itself has some core faults in its construction and the legacy of the book has done more harm than good to both Batman and Superman.

    But I still own the book. I didn't sell it to a used bookstore like other stories I've come to very much loathe. I do enjoy rereading it from time to time for the things it does well, but man oh man did that ending end in a wet fart. In defense of the book, however, very few cape comics have ever been able to reasonably portray the concept they're in opposition of. Superman comics in particular have come to do this far too often. They almost always end up as strawman arguments, so while DKR isn't unique in shitting that particular bed, it gets a pass others don't and I disagree with that.

  4. #304
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I love the first half of DKR. I just think it falls apart and not just as a fan of Superman, but because it doesn't even respect the rules it sets up and tries to play with. As a construct, Superman is strawmanned which robs Bruce the true feeling of victory. It's like winning a fight and finding out someone paid the other guy to lose. Yeah, you won*. The asterisk will always be there.

    Chris Priest wrote a good moment in Deathstroke with respect to Superman and the government, but DKR is a pretty flawed piece. To be honest, I'm not in love with Watchmen either, but that's more its legacy than the work itself. With DKR, the work itself has some core faults in its construction and the legacy of the book has done more harm than good to both Batman and Superman.

    But I still own the book. I didn't sell it to a used bookstore like other stories I've come to very much loathe. I do enjoy rereading it from time to time for the things it does well, but man oh man did that ending end in a wet fart. In defense of the book, however, very few cape comics have ever been able to reasonably portray the concept they're in opposition of. Superman comics in particular have come to do this far too often. They almost always end up as strawman arguments, so while DKR isn't unique in shitting that particular bed, it gets a pass others don't and I disagree with that.
    Man I would love to know more about this from your perspective. The fundamental message of DKR I’d say is that it’s ok to love Batman when you get old, and that he’s always going to kick ass, and I think DKR does a good job of selling that. But the big flaw I’d say is that it isn’t willing to grapple with just what the version of Batman it creates is. He’s psychotic and brutal in a way that reads differently now, and even at the time the DKR’s justification for why Batman can be both a “hero/model to emulate” and someone who counts people’s rights to make himself feel mad, as he brutally breaks their bones, is that he’s “too big to judge”. I obviously disagree with that very premise, no one is too big to judge.

    I’m a huge fan of that Deathstroke but too, Clark doing what the government wanted but in a way that screws them over is the compromise I can live with. Especially since Deathstroke really is a POS.
    Last edited by Vordan; 09-15-2020 at 07:51 PM.

  5. #305
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Man I would love to know more about this from your perspective. The fundamental message of DKR I’d say is that it’s ok to love Batman when you get old, and that he’s always going to kick ass, and I think DKR does a good job of selling that. But the big flaw I’d say is that it isn’t willing to grapple with just what the version of Batman it creates is. He’s psychotic and brutal in a way that reads differently now, and even at the time the DKR’s justification for why Batman can be someone who counts people’s rights to keep himself from going mad is that he’s “too big to judge”. I obviously disagree with that very premise, no one is too big to judge.

    I’m a huge fan of that Deathstroke but too, Clark doing what the government wanted but in a way that screws them over is the compromise I can live with. Especially since Deathstroke really is a POS.
    "Rubber bullets. Honest."

    Really is uncomfortable to read about him in his anti-riot tank these days. Also really unfortunate that he's written to be the hero against the one who was originally designed to be the Champion of the Oppressed.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 09-15-2020 at 07:48 PM.

  6. #306
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    "Rubber bullets. Honest."

    Really is uncomfortable to read about him in his anti-riot tank these days.
    That exact line was running through my head. Also found that exact line I referenced earlier and I got it wrong initially. It’s not a line about Batman reciting people’s rights to keep from going nuts. It’s actually much worse than I thought.

    “You've got rights. Lots of rights. Sometimes I count them just to make myself feel crazy.”

    I don’t agree with the cheap slam dunks that Batman is a fascist but uh... yeah. You can definitely see where that hot take, along with him being nuts, came from. I still really like DKR though, but DKSA I think is total crap for everyone, whatever nuance DKR possessed is gone by DKSA.

    I kinda wanna make a thread about DKR Superman since I think that would be an interesting discussion to have about how genuine a critique of Superman he is, but I’ll wait to see if Robanker responds with his thoughts on how DKR fails first.
    Last edited by Vordan; 09-15-2020 at 08:04 PM.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    That exact line was running through my head. Also found that exact line I referenced and I got it wrong. It’s actually much worse than I thought.

    “You've got rights. Lots of rights. Sometimes I count them just to make myself feel crazy.”

    I don’t agree with the cheap slam dunks that Batman is a fascist but uh... yeah. You can definitely see where that hot take, along with him being nuts, came from. I still really like DKR though, but DKSA I think is total crap for everyone, whatever nuance DKR possessed is gone by DKSA.

    I kinda wanna make a thread about DKR Superman since I think that would be an interesting discussion to have about how genuine a critique of Superman he is, but I’ll wait to see if Robanker responds with his thoughts on how DKR fails first.
    Frank Miller's Batman is teeting on the brink of being a fascist, if not crossing over it.

    What's so odd is that Miller both got what was great about Superman, while also making a parody and straw man. He was so close to getting him right. The idea of working with the government as allies became being a government stooge which fit with the ideology of Reagan America. The president must be Lex Luthor, which has connotations that the presidency and therefore the government in its entirety is to be distrusted deconstructs Superman in that period and that the public must rely on the conservative super-hero who "fights for the common man," in an actual tank no less, must not be questioned. Batman himself is likened to the idea that he's "too big to question" - like when Miller had Gordon equate him with the theory that FDR deliberately left Japan hit Pearl Harbor to motivate America into entering World War 2. It's interesting how Miller and Englehart write their storylines of their super-hero taking on the government. With Englehart Rogers quit being Cap because the government was secretly being manipulated from within by Red Skull, so government as an idea isn't discredited while with Miller's Lex Luthor is the government. He's not hiding who he is and has Superman as his lapdog.

  8. #308
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    You know i find it funny that people bring up the champion of the oppressed when they feel it can get them out of a bind. That version of the character is long gone. He hasn't existed for most of superman's existence. It ain't a get out of jail card. This superman might be loosely based on siegel and shuster superman. But, he ain't that superman . Moreover, nobody thinks bruce was sane or wasn't tethering on the edge of the abyss. That was actually the point. You cannot hope to attain any form of clarity without putting your soul at risk. You will never learn anything about yourself.You will never grow. As said, Superman doesn't even know he has fallen and draining the life out of everything that comes in contact with him. So, find solace in bruce's madness. But, I would take an insane person struggling with himself and world over a man who is clearly sane doing the bidding of the corrupt and being nothing but conformist prick. I find it laughable, the notion of superman being cornered. Nobody can make you do what you don't want at some level.

  9. #309
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Man I would love to know more about this from your perspective. The fundamental message of DKR I’d say is that it’s ok to love Batman when you get old, and that he’s always going to kick ass, and I think DKR does a good job of selling that. But the big flaw I’d say is that it isn’t willing to grapple with just what the version of Batman it creates is. He’s psychotic and brutal in a way that reads differently now, and even at the time the DKR’s justification for why Batman can be both a “hero/model to emulate” and someone who counts people’s rights to make himself feel mad, as he brutally breaks their bones, is that he’s “too big to judge”. I obviously disagree with that very premise, no one is too big to judge.

    I’m a huge fan of that Deathstroke but too, Clark doing what the government wanted but in a way that screws them over is the compromise I can live with. Especially since Deathstroke really is a POS.
    EDIT:I'll preface this with this as well... You really have to do your best to forget that Superman was created as a reaction to crime running rampant and himself was spawned following his creators losing family to crime. This is about as perverted a take as you can get on Superman. It's on the level of Wonder Woman telling little girls to mind their mouth, obey men and never, ever question that they're second class citizens and broodmares. That it gets celebrated so often as an acceptable take on the character, or even a progression for him (Brad Meltzer is on record for considering it canon) feels so goddamn vile I need a shower. Going into the following, I'm going to completely ignore who Superman is supposed to be because we're talking about how DKR fails by its own machinations.

    The long and short of it is that Bruce tries really hard to pin responsibility for the world going to hell on Clark and the government he feels Clark stands up for and then wages war on him using themselves as champions for their ideologies. That said, my god, I am so sorry for the great wall of text... But you did ask.

    Here's the thing. Bruce retired and let it happen. He watched and did nothing. He's the Fisher King. He's as responsible as Clark, who rather than retreating and blaming others, continued to act and went down a very misguided path. Bruce comes out of retirement refreshed and starts again without the 20 or so years of emotional struggle someone who never stopped and then does everything he can to strawman Superman into a symbol of a broken status quo... One that he is just as responsible for allowing to exist. He's a massive hypocrite. The most Bruce really does is acknowledge that his rogues went to **** and he can try and save the city, but he really never gets far into accepting that the entire world is a mess because people like Batman did nothing and left everything to a naive boyscout who wanted to do the right thing and was so concerned with abusing his power he let elected officials be his master. I don't like that take on Clark, but that's essentially what it came down to, and I'm not addressing this as a fan of Superman.

    For good or ill, in DKR Superman is someone who means very well but was raised to follow the rules and never wavered from that path. He's a bit simple, almost as if to paint him as the antagonist without making him malicious because he genuinely doesn't know how to do better. What this effectively says about Superman is that he's an idiot, but not a bad man inherently, though he allowed the world to come to ruin by virtue of not acting to save it. If nothing else, he's a lot better than Injustice!Supes as a result... But yeah, Superman exists as a primary colored metaphor for the crushing weight of federal authority over citizens that require anarchists like Batman to take down... Except Batman is portrayed as a chaotic fascist, so whoops.

    If evil truly triumphs when good men do nothing, then what can we really say about a Bruce Wayne who chose to drink brandy while Gotham burned? We're supposed to finally be on his side because enough was finally enough? Superman never comes across as malicious. The worst thing he did is remove Ollie's arm and we don't have any context as to how that happened, so who knows if he did so to save Ollie's life and Ollie just hates him for making him a cripple? Let's also suspend our notions of who Clark is supposed to be so that doesn't cloud the book. He's misguided at worst and Bruce does nothing to try and help his former ally see the light. He just beats him into the ground to make himself feel better and then fakes his death to skip the hard work of redeeming Superman, who again the book makes out to be a symbol for the system which has ruined the world. He just wants to focus on Gotham, not save the world, and yet he's angry at Clark for allowing the world to go to hell. I'm not even going to get into the fact that Miller's Batman is more of a fascist than Clark is in this book so really his big problem is he thinks the world would be better under his boot rather than Clark's, but everyone has brought up that Miller's Batman is an abusive fascist who only has problems with authority when they're not his own. It's a tired argument and I'll let others say it better.

    Moreover, he delivers that whole "remember the man who beat you" bit when that statement is itself false because he required a great deal of assistance (granted, he could be arguing that abstractly so that Bruce takes credit for the plan rather than solely for the takedown) but even then Clark wasn't fighting back; he didn't win the debate because the other person wasn't even offering an argument. It was just someone's tirade at a broken system who then faked his death before any real rebuttal. Essentially, he's the guy who walks into a crowded room, says his peace, mic drops and leaves before someone could actually refute the argument. Bruce isn't a wisened old man in DKR, he addresses his problems like an angry teenager. The whole "man who beat you" thing falls flat because, again, Clark wasn't really in it to win it nor did he actually use the abilities and experience we know he has (and he just got nuked, too). Bruce didn't beat jack and ****. He just worked out a tantrum. He didn't disprove anything because the debate didn't take place. To be honest, his attack on the entire argument at the climax of the story was "it's because I'm RIGHT." Alright, Bruce. Such a strong argument you have that you refuse to allow the other side of the debate to be heard. How good a strategy you had with "have Superman show up and let himself get beat up." Alright, my dude. Alright.

    DKR falls apart at the end because it wants Batman to be seen as someone rallying against a broken system and making a statement about it, but the minute it brings in Superman to act as a final boss and champion for that status quo, Bruce starts hemorrhaging legs to stand on and reveals he's equally responsible for the world going to ****. In the end, he just wanted to beat up Clark to prove he's a manly man, because that's all he accomplished and again, he did so when the other guy refused to fight back and was more concerned with Bruce's health. Bruce comes across as a gigantic ******* by the end of it because he's more concerned about feeling like he's the champion for the oppressed rather than, well, trying to reform the old guard who kept things under control and fixing what went wrong. It would be one thing if Bruce realized that Batman, Superman and the like lead to the problems of the world and abandoned capes in general, but he doesn't. He still clearly thinks the capes and like work, so really what does he finally prove at the end of the book? Miller wanted Batman to beat up Superman and strung together a plot to make it happen. Everyone loves the story because, for once, we see set-up but he didn't really think through "what would get my antagonist to the fight and what does he bring to it?" He worked very hard on the first section of the book and then realized the only place to conclude was Superman, rushed to it and called it a day to rest on his laurels for the remainder of his life. A lot of people love the book, and they're welcome to, but it just fails for me because it strawmans the opposition so hard I just can't follow it anymore.

    I admit it's been years since I reread it start-to-finish, so perhaps I'll appreciate it more next time, but there you go. I look forward to someone ripping me a new one for taking a dump on the sacred text, but it is what it is. DKR starts really strong and ended up causing irreparable damage to Batman and Superman, but everyone laps it up because it's cool... and it's a cool book! I won't take that away from it. If you don't know any better (and most don't because this is many's gateway book at youth), damn if it isn't satisfying. But it doesn't age well when you remove bias and nostalgia goggles. It's just an angry work from a man who didn't like the world outside his window and wanted to wax philosophical without someone being able to poke holes in his argument. Like I said, I still own the book and I like to read the opening chapters now and then. I usually wrap up when the Joker's neck gets twisted or Bruce seizes Harvey. You want to read Miller's real A-game? Year One and Daredevil: Born Again. Masterclasses in superhero comics.

    And yeah, I love the idea of Clark willing to work with the government but showing them in no small order that he absolutely is not theirs to command and is only helping insofar as he feels he's doing something in the interest of helping humanity. He's willing to work with them, not for them. Sticking them with a little superdickery when they try to put a leash on him is exactly what Superman would do.
    Last edited by Robanker; 09-16-2020 at 01:55 AM.

  10. #310
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    That’s a great analysis man. I never even really thought about it like that but you’re right. Batman bows out after Jason dies and never really owns up to how much his own methods have failed. Also Bruce is directly responsible for what happened, with the death of Jason being repeatedly implied to be the turning point for the government throwing down the gauntlet with the heroes. Clark even says as much himself “when they came after us, you were the one they all pointed at”. And Bruce basically just goes “well yes but **** you”, which may be “badass” but is a pretty weak rebuttal. However I’ll offer two things in defense:

    1. Unlike now where Batman has Kryptonite up to his eyeballs, DKR Batman doesn’t have any Kryptonite stockpiled and has to make some which in his own words “took years and cost a fortune”. Granted we don’t know if Bruce grew that Kryptonite in his younger days, or if he’s been growing it on the downlow during his retirement, but if it was in his old age that offers a defense for why he stepped down. He didn’t have the means to go up against Superman, so when Clark laid down the law Bruce folded.
    2. Bruce does agonize over his failures with the Joker by planning to kill Joker and saying stuff like “all the people I murdered by letting you live”, so he does acknowledge that when it comes to Joker specifically he’s completely flubbed the job even if he regresses to blaming Clark for everything as you pointed out.

    Also I don’t know if this is true or not but my memory is telling me Clark ripped Ollie’s arm off to save his life, but ended up turning him over to the feds which made Ollie feel betrayed. Of course Ollie is also a dick who is eager to take shots at Supes and the other “mainstream” capes whenever he can. Funny how the self proclaimed champion of the little people is always ever so eager to team up with his fellow morally ambiguous billionaires when it suits him

    All that said, while I still like DKR and regard it as a seminal work that paved the way forward for Batman and comics in general, Miller Batman isn’t my Batman. Way too psychotic. Morrison/Scott Snyder/Tynion are the guys who write my Batman.
    Last edited by Vordan; 09-16-2020 at 01:39 AM.

  11. #311
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    The long and short of it is that Bruce tries really hard to pin responsibility for the world going to hell on Clark and the government he feels Clark stands up for and then wages war on him using themselves as champions for their ideologies.

    Here's the thing. Bruce retired and let it happen. He watched and did nothing. He's the Fisher King. He's as responsible as Clark, who rather than retreating and blaming others, continued to act and went down a very misguided path. Bruce comes out of retirement refreshed and starts again without the 20 or so years of emotional struggle someone who never stopped and then does everything he can to strawman Superman into a symbol of a broken status quo... One that he is just as responsible for allowing to exist. He's a massive hypocrite. The most Bruce really does is acknowledge that his rogues went to **** and he can try and save the city, but he really never gets far into accepting that the entire world is a mess because people like Batman did nothing and left everything to a naive boyscout who wanted to do the right thing and was so concerned with abusing his power he let elected officials be his master. I don't like that take on Clark, but that's essentially what it came down to, and I'm not addressing this as a fan of Superman.
    I got something to say , green arrow's arm. The minute bruce decides to act he would have joined green arrow. Bruce needed time to prepare and more importantly being a criminal he needed a superstitious omen to awake from his cowardly slumber. It was the onky thing he could do at the time. Superman on the other hand was set in his rigid ways from the start. There was no talking to clark. Bruce did what he had to suffering for it with madness. Superman on the other hand didn't have to do anything. What's the government going to do? Send in dr. Manhattan?please.Even with threat of direct violence bruce did what he wanted to do at the end of the day. Clark wants to look good infront of people and be the knight. So he repressed himself. That's on him. Finally, bruce had help so what?what's your point? It's not about beating superman fairly. It was about stopping from getting in his way.
    It wasn't fair. It wasn't fair. Bohooo! Get used to it superman does this.As if using kryptonite on parasite is fair.

    Yeah! You need to reread dkr. Actually, bruce and that fight is the reason an "old guard" got reformed. Namely, superman.

  12. #312
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    That’s a great analysis man. I never even really thought about it like that but you’re right. Batman bows out after Jason dies and never really owns up to how much his own methods have failed. Also Bruce is directly responsible for what happened, with the death of Jason being repeatedly implied to be the turning point for the government throwing down the gauntlet with the heroes. Clark even says as much himself “when they came after us, you were the one they all pointed at”. And Bruce basically just goes “well yes but **** you”, which may be “badass” but is a pretty weak rebuttal. However I’ll offer two things in defense:

    1. Unlike now where Batman has Kryptonite up to his eyeballs, DKR Batman doesn’t have any Kryptonite stockpiled and has to make some which in his own words “took years and cost a fortune”. Granted we don’t know if Bruce grew that Kryptonite in his younger days, or if he’s been growing it on the downlow during his retirement, but if it was in his old age that offers a defense for why he stepped down. He didn’t have the means to go up against Superman, so when Clark laid down the law Bruce folded.
    2. Bruce does agonize over his failures with the Joker by planning to kill Joker and saying stuff like “all the people I murdered by letting you live”, so he does acknowledge that when it comes to Joker specifically he’s completely flubbed the job even if he regresses to blaming Clark for everything as you pointed out.

    Also I don’t know if this is true or not but my memory is telling me Clark ripped Ollie’s arm off to save his life, but ended up turning him over to the feds which made Ollie feel betrayed. Of course Ollie is also a dick who is eager to take shots at Supes and the other “mainstream” capes whenever he can. Funny how the self proclaimed champion of the little people is always ever so eager to team up with his fellow morally ambiguous billionaires when it suits him

    All that said, while I still like DKR and regard it as a seminal work that paved the way forward for Batman and comics in general, Miller Batman isn’t my Batman. Way too psychotic. Morrison/Scott Snyder/Tynion are the guys who write my Batman.
    Well he saved Ollie that way later but that was a reference to DKR in setup so we can't let that color the inspiration. At worst, he did it to stop Ollie like the government wanted him to do with Bruce. At worst, it's Clark being a monstrous tool, but we don't get confirmation. Ollie himself isn't a super reliable account of much because he's never kept a cool head, so there's that too.

    And yeah, Miller's Batman is decidedly not my Batman. "My" Batman is more of an amalgam of the Bronze Age works of O'Neil, Englehart and the like alongside some BTAS and '90s to add some of that post-Miller grit, but I always think back to the Caped Crusader of O'Neil's era. "Night of the Stalker" remains probably my favorite single issue of Batman because it perfectly encapsulates that no matter how he pursues criminals, Bruce Wayne is as much of the equation as Batman and it's what keeps him a good, heroic man. The whole "Bruce died that night" garbage is reductive and tries way too hard to emphasize THE MISSION^tm while sacrificing what makes it so poignant... That it's one man's trauma being turned into a vehicle for change. He's a flawed, angry man, but deep down it's born of a deep hope that no one ever suffers as he does.

    Now he's just a walking plot device who has more plans to murder his friends than the actual murderers.

    But yeah, Superman in fandome. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yeah! You need to reread dkr. Actually, bruce and that fight is the reason an "old guard" got reformed. Namely, superman.
    I mean they specifically state that Batman was the one the government was most worried about, but my point is that the book touts that like it's a good thing. Bruce is dangerous, which is treated as cool; sexy; heroic. Fascist feds hate him, find out why. Problem is he never really takes responsibility for it outside his own personal rogues... which is fine, except he casts a wider net himself to criticize Clark while refusing to accept he's as much to blame. He needs to scapegoat hard or else he'd have to point the finger inward and in DKR Bruce is only recently starting to realize how much he screwed the world... And let's not talk about the sequels which actually have him hard 180 into "I DID NOTHING WRONG."

    I probably do owe the book another read one of these days, but my god, the idea is like pulling teeth and I just had a wisdom tooth removed a few months ago so I'm not sure I want another tooth pulled yet. Metaphorical or otherwise.
    Last edited by Robanker; 09-16-2020 at 02:21 AM.

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