Why does this forum seem to dislike Harley Quinn?

[Jackalope89]

Let me be clear; I have no problem what-so-ever with female characters. Cass Cain, Stephanie Brown, Artemis Grace, Artemis Crock (from Young Justice animated series), and several others I greatly enjoy.

Harley, I even read her series during the first year or two of Rebirth. Maybe its burnout? But now, I just don't want to read something where she's a main character or whatever in it. Heroes in Crisis, before her little stint of somehow pulling a fast one on the Trinity, was already an awful, terrible mess. Her doing that, that was just too much for that storyline. Even for the absurdity that is rather commonplace in comics, that was simply bad writing.

[Starrius]

You also have to remember that Catwoman movie and Harley series is separated by decades with difference of understanding.

Remember when Catwoman movie came out, Hollywood believe that female superhero won't sell, so they're okay with subpar writing, awful costume design, and character that has nothing to do with the comic version. Elektra's a bit better but they have the same attitude. They didn't wanna invest in them. Not as much as their male counterparts.

However that's separate from the IP owner believing that Catwoman would sell. DC most likely wanted to promote Catwoman, but Hollywood didn't believe in it.

I really believe that if a Catwoman movie about Selina Kyle in the DC universe was made , the movie would have done a lot better than the Patience Philips Catwoman movie.

[HumbleMumble]

Wow this hate thread is longer than most appreciation threads.

[Badou]

Putting the overexposure and her being shoved into every big story to the side, the fundamental problem with Harley and how DC tries to present her now is her past with the Joker. Unless DC goes for more retcons (which is always a possibility for DC) she joined the Joker of her own free will and also willing joined him as he slaughtered countless amounts of innocent people. She wasn't mind controlled or manipulated into doing the things she did. She did it because she enjoyed being with him. Then she only stopped following the Joker not because of all the evil things he was doing, but because he was being mean to her.

Because of that her being allowed to sit at the Justice League table or being allowed to be part of the Batman family are insane. It isn't the same as a grey character like a Catwoman or a Red Hood who do questionable things sometimes. She joined in the act of killing innocent people. That can't be absolved, but I get why she is allowed to get a pass. Since she is very popular and sells a ton of merch. So DC wants to have her be more hero-ish so they can market her to more people, but the character's history doesn't align with how DC is trying to present her. So there is this massive dissonance between the two.

[Nite-Wing]

It feels like this needs to be reiterated again

The type of moral equivalency you are trying to apply to Harley is not gonna work in superhero fiction and the fact that you can only single Harley out and not the numerous other Bat rogues means that it isn't so important unless the character's popularity upstages or breaks the mold of that archetype. Harley broke through the glass ceiling for villains and I guess that's the bad thing now? because she gets invited to Justice League or Crisis events now
Morality isn't important just superficiality and cause for concern trolling

Which also makes me question the inherent problem in the first place why is it okay for some characters but not Harley? Because they don't encroach outside the bat bubble or have as much clout to warrant being in multiple books at once?
I mean off the top of my head in just Gotham

Clayface(he has killed way more people than Harley and existed way longer) Bruce and Kate made it their mission to turn him into a hero
Man Bat(he has killed way more people than Harley and existed way longer) Got invited to the same JL meetings at Harley now
Azrael(his whole premise has not changed) Also got invited to JL meetings
Two Face( Not sure how many heel turns hes made at this point but he even got to run for DA again after one particular two face stint)
Bane( I have no idea how he went from killer to babysitter to cool uncle but yeah there you go )
Riddler( From killer, to detective, to killer, back to detective trying to upstage batman)
Poison Ivy( Is she a killer oh wait some fans complained now she's just as morally upstanding as a flash rogue who doesn't hurt anyone)
Catwoman(Its amazing how she got to go from being mob boss responsible for her organizations multiple crimes and killings, to convicted murderer, to justice league staple in 2 years) Shame


I think the only villain who has stayed consistent in Gotham is Joker


I can go on and on because a lot of you don't know the history of Gotham and think the silly argument of morality fits neatly in superhero fiction to begin with and doesn't crumble the minute you apply it to any other character.
That's usually a sign of blatant hypocrisy but that label is fine if you hate a character enough

[SiegePerilous02]

It feels like this needs to be reiterated again

The type of moral equivalency you are trying to apply to Harley is not gonna work in superhero fiction and the fact that you can only single Harley out and not the numerous other Bat rogues means that it isn't so important unless the character's popularity upstages or breaks the mold of that archetype. Harley broke through the glass ceiling for villains and I guess that's the bad thing now? because she gets invited to Justice League or Crisis events now
Morality isn't important just superficiality and cause for concern trolling

Which also makes me question the inherent problem in the first place why is it okay for some characters but not Harley? Because they don't encroach outside the bat bubble or have as much clout to warrant being in multiple books at once?
I mean off the top of my head in just Gotham

Clayface(he has killed way more people than Harley and existed way longer) Bruce and Kate made it their mission to turn him into a hero
Man Bat(he has killed way more people than Harley and existed way longer) Got invited to the same JL meetings at Harley now
Azrael(his whole premise has not changed) Also got invited to JL meetings
Two Face( Not sure how many heel turns hes made at this point but he even got to run for DA again after one particular two face stint)
Bane( I have no idea how he went from killer to babysitter to cool uncle but yeah there you go )
Riddler( From killer, to detective, to killer, back to detective trying to upstage batman)
Poison Ivy( Is she a killer oh wait some fans complained now she's just as morally upstanding as a flash rogue who doesn't hurt anyone)
Catwoman(Its amazing how she got to go from being mob boss responsible for her organizations multiple crimes and killings, to convicted murderer, to justice league staple in 2 years) Shame


I think the only villain who has stayed consistent in Gotham is Joker


I can go on and on because a lot of you don't know the history of Gotham and think the silly argument of morality fits neatly in superhero fiction to begin with and doesn't crumble the minute you apply it to any other character.
That's usually a sign of blatant hypocrisy but that label is fine if you hate a character enough

Catwoman isn't broadly characterized as a mob moss, it's a brief and forgettable stint in her very long character history and generally doesn't kill people. Harley's iconic default status is basically being a Manson girl who helps her boyfriend kill people.

The rest of the examples you listed don't make the Harley thing magically better. All those are crappy too. None of them should be associated with the JL. They are just far less visible than Harley.

[Starrius]

Catwoman isn't broadly characterized as a mob moss, it's a brief and forgettable stint in her very long character history and generally doesn't kill people. Harley's iconic default status is basically being a Manson girl who helps her boyfriend kill people.

The rest of the examples you listed don't make the Harley thing magically better. All those are crappy too. None of them should be associated with the JL. They are just far less visible than Harley.

Yeah
the person that made the Catwoman comment makes it seem that he's read only New52 comics
Selina Kyle aka Catwoman has existed since 1940

[OopsIdiditagain]

It feels like this needs to be reiterated again

The type of moral equivalency you are trying to apply to Harley is not gonna work in superhero fiction and the fact that you can only single Harley out and not the numerous other Bat rogues means that it isn't so important unless the character's popularity upstages or breaks the mold of that archetype. Harley broke through the glass ceiling for villains and I guess that's the bad thing now? because she gets invited to Justice League or Crisis events now
Morality isn't important just superficiality and cause for concern trolling

Which also makes me question the inherent problem in the first place why is it okay for some characters but not Harley? Because they don't encroach outside the bat bubble or have as much clout to warrant being in multiple books at once?
I mean off the top of my head in just Gotham

Clayface(he has killed way more people than Harley and existed way longer) Bruce and Kate made it their mission to turn him into a hero
Man Bat(he has killed way more people than Harley and existed way longer) Got invited to the same JL meetings at Harley now
Azrael(his whole premise has not changed) Also got invited to JL meetings
Two Face( Not sure how many heel turns hes made at this point but he even got to run for DA again after one particular two face stint)
Bane( I have no idea how he went from killer to babysitter to cool uncle but yeah there you go )
Riddler( From killer, to detective, to killer, back to detective trying to upstage batman)
Poison Ivy( Is she a killer oh wait some fans complained now she's just as morally upstanding as a flash rogue who doesn't hurt anyone)
Catwoman(Its amazing how she got to go from being mob boss responsible for her organizations multiple crimes and killings, to convicted murderer, to justice league staple in 2 years) Shame


I think the only villain who has stayed consistent in Gotham is Joker


I can go on and on because a lot of you don't know the history of Gotham and think the silly argument of morality fits neatly in superhero fiction to begin with and doesn't crumble the minute you apply it to any other character.
That's usually a sign of blatant hypocrisy but that label is fine if you hate a character enough

Why does DC think we only like a character when they're morally grey? Even Catwoman would be more interesting if DC played up her villainous side more.

[redmax99]

catwoman is a jewel thief really not a villain. i don't care how many comics try to tell people that's a villain. stealing, criminal? yes,villain? no. as for comparing her to harley, selina never stood behind a man egging him on as he killed or tortured people for fun just to be with them.

azrael literally a brainwash child solider who was condition from childhood to show no mercy, least he was trying to be a hero when stuff hit the fan.

manbat is a scientist think of him as bruce banner and hank pym. how many people has hulk killed and still allowed to be an avenger, hank has ignored being a bipolar schizophrenic for how long yet still allowed to be anvenger. as long as kirk dont take the serum he's a good guy trying to do right in this world.

[OopsIdiditagain]

catwoman is a jewel thief really not a villain. i don't care how many comics try to tell people that's a villain. stealing, criminal? yes,villain? no. as for comparing her to harley, selina never stood behind a man egging him on as he killed or tortured people for fun just to be with them.

azrael literally a brainwash child solider who was condition from childhood to show no mercy, least he was trying to be a hero when stuff hit the fan.

manbat is a scientist think of him as bruce banner and hank pym. how many people has hulk killed and still allowed to be an avenger, hank has ignored being a bipolar schizophrenic for how long yet still allowed to be anvenger. as long as kirk dont take the serum he's a good guy trying to do right in this world.

stealing causes a lot of financial harm. But I guess it's easy to ignore that in fictional worlds not so much when it happens to people irl.

[Jackalope89]

stealing causes a lot of financial harm. But I guess it's easy to ignore that in fictional worlds not so much when it happens to people irl.

Well, she steals from either the insanely rich or the very corrupt/evil.

[Nite-Wing]

And she pick pockets from random people on the street too -_-

There are a lot of villains who just steal money, jewels, rob banks, etc but they are still considered bad. Not sure how you can claim otherwise all of those things are crimes that hurt innocent people.

Selina has hurt a lot of innocent people to hurt the rich and powerful though she associates with the worst of gotham but gets to live in a grey area because of Bruce more than anything else.
Its like that radicalization of poison ivy
All the bad things she does and people she hurts are down to protecting the environment but she's still killing people to do it

At the end of the day the difference between selina and someone like say Joe Chill is small

[prepmaster]

Why does DC think we only like a character when they're morally grey? Even Catwoman would be more interesting if DC played up her villainous side more.

There is a reason why the general audience root for noble heroes to win against mass murdering villains. People are easily turned off by immoral acts from a character. Also Catwoman is Batman's main love interest so its better to make her redeemable.

[Frontier]

I mean, Catwoman's a criminal. There's no real denying that. But her burglaries are usually pretty small scale compared to the stuff the other Rogues get up to, at least in the past few years.

At the end of the day the difference between selina and someone like say Joe Chill is small

Selina would never shoot a couple on the street in front of their child. If she thought they were rich and could afford it, she might steal from them, but that's it and she wouldn't attack or mug them.

[Nite-Wing]

The mentality Selina has is the same mentality Joe Chill has though only difference is that one has a gun.

Poor criminal - sees wealthy/privileged person- no empathy - no regard for harm caused(mental, physical, etc) by theft/assault

Its sociopathic behavior that's born from viewing those with wealth or power as in a way inhuman or not worthy of typical emotion.

A lot of Gotham rogues operate on that spectrum