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  1. #31
    I am BLACK GUY dreyga2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top Hat View Post
    When I was on this forum years ago there seemed to be a general dislike for the character verging on hate in some posters cases. It doesn’t seem any different now and I’ve never really understood it myself as she always been one of my favourites. Also the attitude on here seems out of synch with her general popularity. To the best of my knowledge she doesn’t have an appreciation thread.

    It appears to me that some people just don’t like the idea of her without the Joker, whereas to me it was one of the best things they did especially as that whole abused girlfriend/sidekick looked really yuck these days. Notice Punchline doesn’t have that kind of relationship with the Joker because they know how problematic that now looks. It’s telling they retconned parts of traditional origin story in Harleen such as her only getting through university by sleeping with her tutor.
    This is how these forums usually are. They hate any character that gets popular

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    I think there are several interlocking and mutually reinforcing reasons, not all of them valid for each and every poster, of course, but all of them can be found on this forum. Some of course are due to the way DC presents Harley.

    First, Harley is a new and popular character. As such there is a certain old-fan snobbism in rejecting her. That is especially true if a person (or a group) doesn't understand why a character became popular in a domain that they feel ownership of.

    Second, one highly visible woman is an alibi for misogynists. Two highly visible women are a threat. As Harley Quinn has proved popular and enduring, there is that strong focus on tearing her down, either by belittling her or restricting her role.

    Third, for a lot of her time, DC's leadership simply had no understanding what makes the character popular for people not themselves. They see a sexy bad Manic Pixie Dream Girl, but the Harley of B:TAS was rather a sad clown who happened to be an abused woman. The Harley Quinn of "Joker's Favor", "The Laughing Fish", and "Harley and Ivy" was an extremely "chewy" character, in that there were a lot of hidden depths to her that I think even her original creators failed to realise they had put in. A consequence is that as DC has attempted to capitalise on the popularity of the character, the result has been a lot of poor takes on and flanderisation of the character.

    Fourth, the strong feedback loop of negativity. Even a couple of people regularly posting "it sucks" can have an outside effect on the way a conversation goes in a discussion group. Don't crap on another person's enjoyment! (Which I readily admit is a rule with plenty of exceptions, but that's a whole other discussion. But I wholeheartedly believe that the appreciation threads and rules fill an important role in these forums.)

    Fifth, while there is a lot of criticism of Batman, he is somewhat shielded by his gender, by being a power fantasy that most posters here can get in some way, and that most critics are careful to nuance their criticism, e.g. by using the term Batgod to describe the current iteration of the character.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #33
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    I neither hate nor love her - it's plain indifference here from me.

  4. #34
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    […]
    Second, one highly visible woman is an alibi for misogynists. Two highly visible women are a threat. As Harley Quinn has proved popular and enduring, there is that strong focus on tearing her down, either by belittling her or restricting her role.
    […]
    Again this excuse?
    In a world were character like Storm, Wonder Woman, Jean Grey, Emma Frost (et cetera, et cetera) are universally accepted (and loved) by everyone, do we still think to the misogynist theory about the female characters?
    I never saw anyone say something neither remotely misogynist against Harley Quinn. For what I saw this supposed hate against Harley Quinn is related to the current evolution of the character, not to some snobbism, nor to this misogynist sentiment, nor due to this supposed influence of negative feedback (in fact the fans are used to react to those feedbacks attacking the critiques).

    P.S. The them "Batgod" isn't an emphatic term, not an euphemism.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Hate her? Er, not that far. But I'm tired of her being shoved into everything and being somehow better then others. Even Heroes in Crisis, which was already bad, had a Harley scene shoved in where she somehow beat the entire Trinity. Two of which are so OP, nothing Harley could do would deter them, and the other one has so much experience with her and other "unpredictable" characters, it just doesn't work. And that's not including making a "Birds of Prey" film which was really just a "Harley & Friends" film, among many others.

    And yes, I'm well over Batman being in everything too.

  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
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    I am not saying that she deserves return with the Joker but.. She is annoying.

    I don´t like found her almost everywhere when I am avoiding read her comics. Yes. HER COMICS.. She is one character with at least 2 comics but DC can put her in the most unexpected comics too(even if is only 1 issue) for her popularity.

    When Superman identity was revealed for Bendis she was in THE HALL OF JUSTICE.. Why? She is not a hero..

    Or make the BIRDS OF PREY a comic called HARLEY AND THE BIRDS OF PREY.. Why?

    not including making a "Birds of Prey" film which was really just a "Harley & Friends" film, among many others.
    I see.. Fortunately I only watched few DC movies that I think that can interest me and watching the films reviews to not regret about it.
    Last edited by adrikito; 08-24-2020 at 01:28 AM.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, the Birds of Prey situation. I forgot to add that to my post. That was probably my breaking point with the character. I didn't care for her character since the New 52, but I don't follow her books so I could mostly be indifferent. Then the BoP movie situation happened and it really annoyed me. They could have made a Gotham City Sirens or just a Harley Quinn movie, but they had to jam her into the BoP franchise. How they tried to force the BoP brand and team to be under the Harley Quinn umbrella was so frustrating. I'm glad the movie failed because maybe it means the team won't be stuck under Harley's thumb in the future the way Suicide Squad has been since they put her in there. Though at the same time it sucks because the BoP brand has been damaged in the general public eye and probably missed its chance at any kind of live action adaptation for a long while.

  8. #38
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    the BoP brand has been damaged in the general public eye and probably missed its chance at any kind of live action adaptation for a long while.
    Well, the brand recovered from the apparently (never watched it) bad TV series enough to be used for a film, maybe there'll be a videogame some time and it could actually be good.

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    Well, the brand recovered from the apparently (never watched it) bad TV series enough to be used for a film, maybe there'll be a videogame some time and it could actually be good.
    That was 20 years ago

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Fifth, while there is a lot of criticism of Batman, he is somewhat shielded by his gender, by being a power fantasy that most posters here can get in some way, and that most critics are careful to nuance their criticism, e.g. by using the term Batgod to describe the current iteration of the character.
    Batman has also the training, the experience and tons of gadgets (and some writers pushing it still to far with the Badgod thing), Harley doesn't really have any of that.

    I think "Suicide Squad: Hell to Pay" was probably the incarnation in recent times, where Harley's skills were most in line with her back ground (meaning that she was pretty useless in comparison to the rest of the team).

  11. #41
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    That was 20 years ago
    Which explains why I never watched it. Still, it recovered. Daredevil recovered from a bad film to become a good TV series...that got cancelled, but point being Birds of Prey probably isn't as badly off as it may seem at the moment.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    HQ is probably the only female overexposed character. I dislike her as much as Wolverine, Deadpool and (most) Batman. She can be a comic relief but its hard to write humor and not hard to write cheap drama. If DC stops pushing her into everything and if she looses some fights once in while she might score more brownie points

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    Again this excuse?
    In a world were character like Storm, Wonder Woman, Jean Grey, Emma Frost (et cetera, et cetera) are universally accepted (and loved) by everyone, do we still think to the misogynist theory about the female characters?
    I never saw anyone say something neither remotely misogynist against Harley Quinn. For what I saw this supposed hate against Harley Quinn is related to the current evolution of the character, not to some snobbism, nor to this misogynist sentiment, nor due to this supposed influence of negative feedback (in fact the fans are used to react to those feedbacks attacking the critiques).

    P.S. The them "Batgod" isn't an emphatic term, not an euphemism.
    Yeah, I have to agree with this. It's incredibly disingenuous to claim the criticism of Harley is due to sexism.

  14. #44
    Mighty Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    Probably because she is pushed on us a lot. Plus since she became popular she's a anti-hero/tweener now. I personally don't have a problem with her, but I can see why others do.
    Pulls: Batman, Detective Comics, and Young Justice.
    My runs: Batman #252- and Detective #444-, every issue since I was born.

  15. #45
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Fifth, while there is a lot of criticism of Batman, he is somewhat shielded by his gender, by being a power fantasy that most posters here can get in some way, and that most critics are careful to nuance their criticism, e.g. by using the term Batgod to describe the current iteration of the character.
    But aren't you saying Harley should be shielded by her gender?

    I'm sure sexism plays into it for some people. But she is pushed a lot even in some instances where it doesn't make sense. Like if she beats up Superman or Wonder Woman with a baseball bat in this stupid Suicide Squad game, I'm not sure the resentment from that is going to be borne from misogyny.

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