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  1. #46
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    TBH, even when she was more of just another Bat-villain I found the character annoying because of her voice, so her rising in prominence meaning I have to hear that of that type of voice more is a reason for me.

    Nonsense like Injustice is what pushed me over into the category of flat-out disliking the character in general. She's pretty much female Batman, anytime she gets paired off with a another DC hero character, they got to be written as actively dumber or lame to make her look "cool" or "funny".

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    Again this excuse?
    In a world were character like Storm, Wonder Woman, Jean Grey, Emma Frost (et cetera, et cetera) are universally accepted (and loved) by everyone, do we still think to the misogynist theory about the female characters?
    I never saw anyone say something neither remotely misogynist against Harley Quinn. For what I saw this supposed hate against Harley Quinn is related to the current evolution of the character, not to some snobbism, nor to this misogynist sentiment, nor due to this supposed influence of negative feedback (in fact the fans are used to react to those feedbacks attacking the critiques).
    First, of the characters you list above, only one can be said to have the same public stature as large as or bigger than Harley Quinn, and that is Wonder Woman. Storm, Jean Grey, and Emma Frost are nowhere near as well-known, and are then primarily known as members of a larger team. Also, they are Marvel characters, so firewalled off from the DC side.

    If you want a better comparison with Marvel right now, it'd be Captain Marvel, but note that her movie faced a fierce campaign from online haters as well.

    Second, sexism can express itself in lots of ways. One of those is that a character should stay in place and not evolve. We get tons of posters here that Babs should be Batgirl rather than Oracle, or that Harley Quinn (or Catwoman or Poison Ivy) should stay villanous. But I've never seen anyone express anything similar about Dick Grayson, that he should stay on as Robin rather than being Nightwing. Or that Riddler's or Killer Croc's sometimes anti-hero status should be aborted.

    Third, I believe misogyny most definitely plays a role in shaping the reaction to how much DC pushes Harley Quinn. She is a visible and uppity woman. The tone and the stridency changes compared to characters like Batman or BWL or Joker. Sexism causes people to think that even if they push Batman (et c) too much, at least they don't take it as a threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Yeah, I have to agree with this. It's incredibly disingenuous to claim the criticism of Harley is due to sexism.
    It is equally dangerous to think that sexism in various forms does not play a role in the way Harley Quinn is perceived. I'm thinking about far more than overt stuff here, but also small things and patterns of thoughts. All of us—even me—has internalised patterns of thoughts and prejudices regarding sexism, and it is foolish to believe that it does not shape how you think of a character. Indeed, the very denial of sexism is to me a sure sign of lots of unexamined sexist prejudices.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    But aren't you saying Harley should be shielded by her gender?

    I'm sure sexism plays into it for some people. But she is pushed a lot even in some instances where it doesn't make sense. Like if she beats up Superman or Wonder Woman with a baseball bat in this stupid Suicide Squad game, I'm not sure the resentment from that is going to be borne from misogyny.
    Correct. Not all criticism against Harley Quinn comes from sexism or misogyny. But "not all" is not "no", and one of the way sexism expresses itself is by taking valid criticism and latching onto it by spreading it far more, expressing it more forcefully, and perpetuating it.

    I think nearly everyone here thinks Heroes in Crisis was at best an interesting dumpster fire. But why is only Harley brought up as a character who was written badly anymore, and not Batman or Superman?

    Because that is one way that sexism can express itself: female characters are judged and remembered based on their worst depictions; male characters from their best.
    Last edited by kjn; 08-24-2020 at 08:18 AM. Reason: clarity
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I can't stand modern Harley. I think she is a terrible character that is way overexposed and gets shoved into too many books and stories where she ends up lowering the quality of them. She's been in basically every big DC story or event for years now, and I hate how they turned the Suicide Squad franchise into just a Harley Quinn promotional vehicle as well. The shift of trying to turn her into a generic hero and ignoring how she willingly joined the Joker and did horrible things has been so forced. Now they want her to be part of the Batman family or even on the Justice League because they want to sell her as a female hero. I don't think she is an interesting enough character to warrant such a massive push.
    Her time in the Suicide Squad is her redemption arc I don’t know why people find this concept so difficult to grasp. I know that DC have some crazy time jumps with titles in different periods but still.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I think there are several interlocking and mutually reinforcing reasons, not all of them valid for each and every poster, of course, but all of them can be found on this forum. Some of course are due to the way DC presents Harley.

    First, Harley is a new and popular character. As such there is a certain old-fan snobbism in rejecting her. That is especially true if a person (or a group) doesn't understand why a character became popular in a domain that they feel ownership of.

    Second, one highly visible woman is an alibi for misogynists. Two highly visible women are a threat. As Harley Quinn has proved popular and enduring, there is that strong focus on tearing her down, either by belittling her or restricting her role.

    Third, for a lot of her time, DC's leadership simply had no understanding what makes the character popular for people not themselves. They see a sexy bad Manic Pixie Dream Girl, but the Harley of B:TAS was rather a sad clown who happened to be an abused woman. The Harley Quinn of "Joker's Favor", "The Laughing Fish", and "Harley and Ivy" was an extremely "chewy" character, in that there were a lot of hidden depths to her that I think even her original creators failed to realise they had put in. A consequence is that as DC has attempted to capitalise on the popularity of the character, the result has been a lot of poor takes on and flanderisation of the character.

    Fourth, the strong feedback loop of negativity. Even a couple of people regularly posting "it sucks" can have an outside effect on the way a conversation goes in a discussion group. Don't crap on another person's enjoyment! (Which I readily admit is a rule with plenty of exceptions, but that's a whole other discussion. But I wholeheartedly believe that the appreciation threads and rules fill an important role in these forums.)

    Fifth, while there is a lot of criticism of Batman, he is somewhat shielded by his gender, by being a power fantasy that most posters here can get in some way, and that most critics are careful to nuance their criticism, e.g. by using the term Batgod to describe the current iteration of the character.
    The problem I have with Batman, is not that dislike the character because I don’t, but the way he’s been used to push characters like Superman and Wonder Woman into the background.

  5. #50
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    […]
    If you want a better comparison with Marvel right now, it'd be Captain Marvel, but note that her movie faced a fierce campaign from online haters as well.
    […]
    In fact nobody criticize Captain Marvel due to the fact she is a female, but due to the supposed fact her movie was used to push some ideological agenda; I don't know if it was true, because I don't see the Marvel movies: I don't like them.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrikito View Post
    I am not saying that she deserves return with the Joker but.. She is annoying.

    I don´t like found her almost everywhere when I am avoiding read her comics. Yes. HER COMICS.. She is one character with at least 2 comics but DC can put her in the most unexpected comics too(even if is only 1 issue) for her popularity.

    When Superman identity was revealed for Bendis she was in THE HALL OF JUSTICE.. Why? She is not a hero..

    Or make the BIRDS OF PREY a comic called HARLEY AND THE BIRDS OF PREY.. Why?



    I see.. Fortunately I only watched few DC movies that I think that can interest me and watching the films reviews to not regret about it.
    Or are people just being too precious about this, it kind of contributes to the bad image that a lot of comics have deservedly in some cases, and undeservedly in others gained online.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Batman has also the training, the experience and tons of gadgets (and some writers pushing it still to far with the Badgod thing), Harley doesn't really have any of that.

    I think "Suicide Squad: Hell to Pay" was probably the incarnation in recent times, where Harley's skills were most in line with her back ground (meaning that she was pretty useless in comparison to the rest of the team).
    How would anyone who survived as long as she did in the Suicide Squad be a bad fighter?

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    DC isn't trying to sell you Harley they are merely meeting the high demand for Harley.
    Exactly. People always get this backwards. Characters don’t get popular because they are pushed. They get pushed because they are popular.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    First, of the characters you list above, only one can be said to have the same public stature as large as or bigger than Harley Quinn, and that is Wonder Woman. Storm, Jean Grey, and Emma Frost are nowhere near as well-known, and are then primarily known as members of a larger team. Also, they are Marvel characters, so firewalled off from the DC side.

    If you want a better comparison with Marvel right now, it'd be Captain Marvel, but note that her movie faced a fierce campaign from online haters as well.

    Second, sexism can express itself in lots of ways. One of those is that a character should stay in place and not evolve. We get tons of posters here that Babs should be Batgirl rather than Oracle, or that Harley Quinn (or Catwoman or Poison Ivy) should stay villanous. But I've never seen anyone express anything similar about Dick Grayson, that he should stay on as Robin rather than being Nightwing. Or that Riddler's or Killer Croc's sometimes anti-hero status should be aborted.

    Third, I believe misogyny most definitely plays a role in shaping the reaction to how much DC pushes Harley Quinn. She is a visible and uppity woman. The tone and the stridency changes compared to characters like Batman or BWL or Joker. Sexism causes people to think that even if they push Batman (et c) too much, at least they don't take it as a threat.



    It is equally dangerous to think that sexism in various forms does not play a role in the way Harley Quinn is perceived. I'm thinking about far more than overt stuff here, but also small things and patterns of thoughts. All of us—even me—has internalised patterns of thoughts and prejudices regarding sexism, and it is foolish to believe that it does not shape how you think of a character. Indeed, the very of sexism is to me a sure sign of lots of unexamined sexist prejudices.



    Correct. Not all criticism against Harley Quinn comes from sexism or misogyny. But "not all" is not "no", and one of the way sexism expresses itself is by taking valid criticism and latching onto it by spreading it far more, expressing it more forcefully, and perpetuating it.

    I think nearly everyone here thinks Heroes in Crisis was at best an interesting dumpster fire. But why is only Harley brought up as a character who was written badly anymore, and not Batman or Superman?

    Because that is one way that sexism can express itself: female characters are judged and remembered based on their worst depictions; male characters from their best.
    I am sure that a degree of criticism of the character isn’t sexism, but I am also pretty sure that an amount of it is. It appears to be the bar for people complaining about overuse of the character is set lower for her than it is for equivalent male characters. For example to my mind the Joker is overused but doesn’t get anywhere near the level of criticism for this.

  10. #55
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top Hat View Post
    Her time in the Suicide Squad is her redemption arc I don’t know why people find this concept so difficult to grasp. I know that DC have some crazy time jumps with titles in different periods but still.
    I don't think they seriously treat it as her redemption arc any more than they do for most of the Squad (who are usually still villains at the end of the day).

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think they seriously treat it as her redemption arc any more than they do for most of the Squad (who are usually still villains at the end of the day).
    I think it depends who is writing it.

    TBH I think people will get their wish on the character as I very much doubt the character will get another solo ongoing title being as the last one spend a lot of time in the lowest 20% sales wise that Lee seemed to indicate would be cut from their slate of titles.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Did not like the humor of her show and not used to comic characters fbombing. There were some nice designs, though.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top Hat View Post
    How would anyone who survived as long as she did in the Suicide Squad be a bad fighter?
    Plot Armor?

    Honestly Harley being on the Suicide Squad doesn't really make much sense in universe, she doesn't have super powers or any kind of special training (and the Suicide Squad members also don't really get any training), is highly unpredictable and makes it very unlikely that any of the "secret missions" Suicide Squad does are really achieve the "secret" part.
    Having her on the team makes it actually more likely that the missions gets messed up.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    This forum is weird more than a few posters hate Bruce too
    If you could boil down all the hate and get to one general point people don't like about her
    It would be the fact that she broke away from the Joker, became popular and then began to be considered a hero

    The upstaging other characters is certainly a tic for some fans as well

    Harley Quinn is a relatively new character she was created in a cartoon and was a comic book transplant. She wasn't introduced in the DCU proper til 2000
    In that time til now she has jumped over numerous characters and become a legit rival in popularity to Batman, Superman, and WW. Jim Lee said internally they consider her a pillar of DC
    She appears a lot in movies, tv, and video games across all media and that complex is already hard for people to deal with in general. Bruce by himself gets the same type of hate
    You can imagine for Harley its a lot worse because she got popular so quickly and left behind a lot of other characters in her dust.


    Sometimes it just boils down to jealousy
    If Dick Grayson was shilled everywhere I can't imagine some on this forum would care because they mentally put that character above others in the DCU. In a way DC has mentally placed Harley above a lot of characters which has caused some serious complexes across the internet
    You see the same thing with Captain Marvel over at Marvel
    Last edited by Nite-Wing; 08-24-2020 at 09:15 AM.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top Hat View Post
    The problem I have with Batman, is not that dislike the character because I don’t, but the way he’s been used to push characters like Superman and Wonder Woman into the background.
    Yeah I'd say a good chunk of the problems come from how the world around them is portrayed when they are around. Whether it be Batman being able to take out EVERYONE with "prep time", or Harley being super duper capable and the world pretty much bending to serve her. Back in the DCAU when the Harley/Ivy pair was introduced, while it did eventually get to where we barely saw Ivy on her own, it was still clear that Pamela was clearly the one running the schemes and calling the shots...nowadays Ivy is just a tag along for whatever Harley wants to do. It's a disservice to Ivy in that she has basically become Harley's sidekick (especially since Harley was created as a sidekick while Poison Ivy was her own individual character from the get go). Her hijacking things like Birds of Prey also don't help.

    Then there is the whole Trinity takedown....I'd definitely say that it is more of a Bat problem (as supervillains who SHOULD find Joker to be some annoying clown [as they deal with MUCH larger threats] are afraid of him.)...so anyone who has an affiliation with Batman will often succeed at the expense of other characters...

    Also, the fact that it seems that there's a push to get rid of the more problematic areas of her origin for some reason. It is often ignored how Harley took the job at Arkham to basically take advantage of the mentally ill, she simply got outplayed by the victim she chose. The fact that she cheated to get her PhD was kind of the point in how she was unprepared for the oldest trick in the book in the routine and common abusive parents story that Joker came up with.
    Last edited by Mistah K88; 08-24-2020 at 09:33 AM.

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