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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I did very much enjoy the BOP movie itself, I think it's one of the better installments in the DCEU. But although Margot is perfect in the role and I appreciate the intent behind it if it was meant to attract people with Harley and get people into the Birds, it didn't pan out that well. Instead of it was a Harley movie that functioned as a back door pilot for a BOP spin off we most likely will not get unfortunately.

    Not to mention it's just not going to sit completely right that Harley is pushed as the lead in a BOP movie when she has no connected to them in the comics, and the actual main lead (Barbara - as either Oracle or Batgirl) wasn't present. Harley is getting another chance in Suicide Squad, while the Birds are likely not going to be seen again. A noble attempt in intent, but I think BOP as a Harley vehicle is inherently flawed. Maybe Gotham Sirens would have worked better with a crossover with the Birds down the line and pit the two teams against each other.
    Much like how lately Batman inspires Superman's costume, DC wants to make Harley a founding member of the BoP. Revisionist history is all the rage. As most suggested, Sirens would have been the way to go but I'm sure the powers that be shot it down since they live to put IP on hold for bigger projects and they had Catwoman coming in the Reeves film.

    I thought the movie was fun, but yeah, it wasn't a BoP movie at all. It was a vanity project for Margot, but damn if it wasn't a good time.

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Agreed, I should have phrased that better.
    And that is why ableism is a complicating factor for any discussion on Oracle, and sexism is a complicating factor in any discussion around Harley Quinn (or any other female superhero).

    Even if someone isn't a misogynist, they might have internalised and unexamined sexism that influences them, and even if they got rid or became aware of that, those things pervade the very language we use and how others read it.

    Like, I think it's telling that I provided a list of five different factors that I thought contributed to a dislike of Harley Quinn on this forum, and sexism was one of them, but a bunch of posters lost their shit over that. To me, that is a sure sign of unexamined prejudice.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    That's still damage control, albeit (like I said) a very well written case of it. The fact that Ostrander and Yale did it themselves without a mission doesn't change that. Like you say, she was a discarded character whose treatment they were appalled by and made the best out of an initial very bad situation. Because the only other option at that time was sending Babs into limbo.
    I think you diminish what Yale and Ostrander did here, by calling it "damage control". They created something new and unique.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    And it's just a lousy fan situation that pits two groups against each other. But the Batgirl fans, even the more reasonable ones, are usually painted as the bad guys for stating a preference. Not here mind you, but in general. And no, as underwhelming as a lot of the current Batgirl stuff is, I'd need a lot more convincing to buy that the legacy of TKJ itself is less harmful to her. Look at what it lead to in one instance: a terrible animated adaptation in which she was still greatly reduced as a character.
    Yes, DC's handling of Babs since New 52 has been rather abysmal. And I think one reason why a lot of Oracle fans gets upset by Babsgirl fans is that a lot of the language used to defend Babsgirl is framed in ableistic terms, whether the person intends to or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    And HiC aside, we have whole topics devoted to how overpowered and pushed at the expense of other IPs Batman is. And a lot of those are valid. But much like you say with Harley, people don't treat these as abberations or poor writing. You yourself have posted comments about Bruce before that lump all his portrayals into one and that the promblematic aspects are at the core of his character, which I disagree with. Why is it ok to say this about Batman, but some of the motivations for similar exasperation towards what is done with Harley needs to be questioned? And they are often coming from the same people on here. She's an extension of his brand after all. The Batman bashing and fatigue is more prominent and has been around longer than with Harley.
    Yes, it's true that I don't have a high opinion on Batman as a character (though I can appreciate the sheer camp of Adam West in small doses). That's why I don't post much about Batman.

    But most of the criticism of Batman stories here come from people who appreciate Batman as a character, even if they dislike his current portrayals. That's a fundamental difference between Harley Quinn and Batman here.
    ęSpeaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given outĽ (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #78
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    And that is why ableism is a complicating factor for any discussion on Oracle, and sexism is a complicating factor in any discussion around Harley Quinn (or any other female superhero).

    Even if someone isn't a misogynist, they might have internalised and unexamined sexism that influences them, and even if they got rid or became aware of that, those things pervade the very language we use and how others read it.

    Like, I think it's telling that I provided a list of five different factors that I thought contributed to a dislike of Harley Quinn on this forum, and sexism was one of them, but a bunch of posters lost their shit over that. To me, that is a sure sign of unexamined prejudice.
    I think people "lost their shit over it" because like Agent Z said a while back, it's a bit disingenuous to assume that's a major contributing factor in why people dislike Harley when a character like Deadpool gets similar backlash/fatigue from overexposure.

    And basically all your points boiled down to sexism in some way, which casts doubt on anyoneís possible opinion of Harley and if it could be valid or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I think you diminish what Yale and Ostrander did here, by calling it "damage control". They created something new and unique. .
    It doesnít diminish it though, because that term doesnít say anything about the final result. They can do damage control and still create something new and unique (they did) as a result. Thatís the difference between a good comic book writer and a bad one and why some changes have more enduring power than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Yes, it's true that I don't have a high opinion on Batman as a character (though I can appreciate the sheer camp of Adam West in small doses). That's why I don't post much about Batman.
    But most of the criticism of Batman stories here come from people who appreciate Batman as a character, even if they dislike his current portrayals. That's a fundamental difference between Harley Quinn and Batman here.
    It certainly may happen elsewhere (I wouldn't be surprised), but I donít see a fundamental difference in this thread at least or on this forum in general. People have voiced preference for older portrayals of her vs. her new ones. Otherwise, maybe they just donít have a high opinion on Harley as a character in general?

    Even your stated preference for Harley and general low opinion of Batman casts some doubt on your final statement, because a bias is showing. Which is fine, thatís pretty much how all of us operate. But is it really that different from people who just don't care for Harley, even if it's just some versions and have an aversion to her character archetype?

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    Yeah I'd say a good chunk of the problems come from how the world around them is portrayed when they are around. Whether it be Batman being able to take out EVERYONE with "prep time", or Harley being super duper capable and the world pretty much bending to serve her. Back in the DCAU when the Harley/Ivy pair was introduced, while it did eventually get to where we barely saw Ivy on her own, it was still clear that Pamela was clearly the one running the schemes and calling the shots...nowadays Ivy is just a tag along for whatever Harley wants to do. It's a disservice to Ivy in that she has basically become Harley's sidekick (especially since Harley was created as a sidekick while Poison Ivy was her own individual character from the get go).
    Harley was also in the comics the side kick/comic relief up untill flashpoint, if you look at Gotham City Sirens, Catwoman and Ivy were clearly the ones calling the shots.

    Thats also a big difference between her and Batman, him being able to beat anyone with "prep time" is an pretty old thing, and that getting to more and more ridiculous levels was slow process, in case of Harley the character was pretty drasticly changed after flashpoint.

  5. #80
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Harley was also in the comics the side kick/comic relief up untill flashpoint, if you look at Gotham City Sirens, Catwoman and Ivy were clearly the ones calling the shots.

    Thats also a big difference between her and Batman, him being able to beat anyone with "prep time" is an pretty old thing, and that getting to more and more ridiculous levels was slow process, in case of Harley the character was pretty drasticly changed after flashpoint.
    Just look at her treatment in the original BoP where she got taken out in one punch and wasn't taken seriously to where now she was being poised to be the face of the franchise.

  6. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    And that is why ableism is a complicating factor for any discussion on Oracle, and sexism is a complicating factor in any discussion around Harley Quinn (or any other female superhero).

    Even if someone isn't a misogynist, they might have internalised and unexamined sexism that influences them, and even if they got rid or became aware of that, those things pervade the very language we use and how others read it.

    Like, I think it's telling that I provided a list of five different factors that I thought contributed to a dislike of Harley Quinn on this forum, and sexism was one of them, but a bunch of posters lost their shit over that. To me, that is a sure sign of unexamined prejudice.



    I think you diminish what Yale and Ostrander did here, by calling it "damage control". They created something new and unique.



    Yes, DC's handling of Babs since New 52 has been rather abysmal. And I think one reason why a lot of Oracle fans gets upset by Babsgirl fans is that a lot of the language used to defend Babsgirl is framed in ableistic terms, whether the person intends to or not.



    Yes, it's true that I don't have a high opinion on Batman as a character (though I can appreciate the sheer camp of Adam West in small doses). That's why I don't post much about Batman.

    But most of the criticism of Batman stories here come from people who appreciate Batman as a character, even if they dislike his current portrayals. That's a fundamental difference between Harley Quinn and Batman here.
    I'm curious, does Batman being a straight white CIS gendered male have anything to do with your dislike of him? Because you seem extremely hypocritical in the way you treat him vs the way you treat Harley. A lot of the complaints the 2 get are virtually identical but you defend Harley and not Bruce. Both are called OP, both are called overexposed, both are called overrated, etc. You vehemently defend Harley getting hate for doing things like beating up the Trinity but are silent when Bruce gets hate for similar bs feats.

    It's fine you don't like him but the double standards are mind blowing, especially the sexism defense. How is it sexist for people to complain about:

    Harley beating the Trinity which includes a woman

    Harley being put into the BOP movie taking the place of a woman.

    Those are the 2 biggest recent complaints against her and I don't see how either one could be deemed sexist. Sure there definitley are people who dislike her for sexist reasons but like I said earlier I'm sure some people dislike Bruce for being a straight white CIS gendered male and would like him a whole lot more if he wasn't one of those things.

    If sexism played as much a part of characters being hated as you say why are the majority of the disliked characters males? Batman's easily the most hated character on this site and it's not even close. Next would likely be Joker then Harley and Superman would follow her. Wonder Woman being THE female character and a feminist icon should make her more hated if everyone's as sexist as you claim but WW's one of those characters like Dick Grayson where very few hate them and most love them.
    Last edited by The True Detective; 08-28-2020 at 12:07 AM.

  7. #82
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    If sexism played as much a part of characters being hated as you say why are the majority of the disliked characters males? Batman's easily the most hated character on this site and it's not even close. Next would likely be Joker then Harley and Superman would follow her. Wonder Woman being THE female character and a feminist icon should make her more hated if everyone's as sexist as you claim but WW's one of those characters like Dick Grayson where very few hate them and most love them.
    The sexism claim for Harley comes from her relationship with Joker. People want her to keep being a sidekick, lover, a dumb fool. Arkham games keep saying "Harley never was really smart". Fans that don't allow her to move on from being a sidekick and a side piece.

    Wonder Woman was independent right from the start. Her sexism claim comes whenever she's depowered or authors like Johns adding a twin brother and make her come from Zeus instead of the metaphor of only female-born... or Azzarello prioritizing male supporting cast while taking out the Amazons.

  8. #83
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    Those are the 2 biggest recent complaints against her and I don't see how either one could be deemed sexist. Sure there definitley are people who dislike her for sexist reasons but like I said earlier I'm sure some people dislike Bruce for being a straight white CIS gendered male and would like him a whole lot more if he wasn't one of those things.
    Don't forget that he's rich. Which is a loaded topic these days I know, but a heroic billionaire isn't much of a stretch in a fantastical setting that includes regular alien invasions and Greek gods.

    Morrison was right when he said you can't have Batman fight regular street crime too much without it looking bad and that's why he wrote him as mostly handling corrupt rich secret societies and super villains, though pretty much every superhero intervenes when street crime is before them regardless of who they are. And most of Batman's villains are not realistically mentally ill and he spends most of his time battling corrupt rich people and villains who flush money down the toilet on garish death traps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    The sexism claim for Harley comes from her relationship with Joker. People want her to keep being a sidekick, lover, a dumb fool. Arkham games keep saying "Harley never was really smart". Fans that don't allow her to move on from being a sidekick and a side piece.
    That line was odd coming from a game written by Paul Dini, as he definitely never viewed his own character as dumb and he always wrote Batman as knowing she was competent so it's OOC for him too. Though since games have multiple authors, that line may not have even come from Dini.

    I think people forget just how competent Harley was in her relationship with the Joker and that the power dynamic wasn't completely skewed towards him (though yes he had most of it). It's a tragic and abusive dynamic, but not one where Harley is missing complete agency. You see it in her dynamic with Ivy as well. She's comfortable being the submissive and knows how to subtly manipulate both the Joker and Ivy to get what she wants, and will lash out at them when she's not getting what she wants. See how she attacks the Joker in "Trial," "Harlequinade" and "Joker's Millions" and receives no consequences. She plays up the "dumb blonde" thing because she likes being underestimated and/or she's a bit lazy and wants the dominant partner to take charge.

    It's two toxic unhealthy dynamics she has for herself, but the belief that she's a sidekick/dumb fool and that's what people expect from her (doubtless that's exactly what some see in her relationship with the Joker) has always been reductive.

  9. #84
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    Around what time did she get these elite fighting skills?

  10. #85
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post

    That line was odd coming from a game written by Paul Dini, as he definitely never viewed his own character as dumb and he always wrote Batman as knowing she was competent so it's OOC for him too. Though since games have multiple authors, that line may not have even come from Dini.

    I think people forget just how competent Harley was in her relationship with the Joker and that the power dynamic wasn't completely skewed towards him (though yes he had most of it). It's a tragic and abusive dynamic, but not one where Harley is missing complete agency. You see it in her dynamic with Ivy as well. She's comfortable being the submissive and knows how to subtly manipulate both the Joker and Ivy to get what she wants, and will lash out at them when she's not getting what she wants. See how she attacks the Joker in "Trial," "Harlequinade" and "Joker's Millions" and receives no consequences. She plays up the "dumb blonde" thing because she likes being underestimated and/or she's a bit lazy and wants the dominant partner to take charge.

    It's two toxic unhealthy dynamics she has for herself, but the belief that she's a sidekick/dumb fool and that's what people expect from her (doubtless that's exactly what some see in her relationship with the Joker) has always been reductive.
    Now that you mention it, yeah, that is odd, but Arkham's never one about consistency. When you play as Harley you get her at extreme power, then when it's back to the main story she's taken out in a single punch again and act like a baby.

    Yeah. In BTAS, and her definitive story, Mad Love, which is the one Harley's story everyone should watch and read, she's shown to be competent, held back by her love and obedience towards Joker and his insistence on playing games with Batman.

    I don't know her that much to know that she enjoys being submissive or act the dumb blonde, but I can see her doing that because she's used to navigating around Joker.

    That said, I can see how people remember Harley wrong because the cartoon was a long time ago, and her loud visual, voice, and acting will stick in your head more than the subtle details. It's the same reason why for a lot of people Dick Grayson is still Burt Ward, Red Hood just shoots people, or Aquaman just talks to fish. They need an extremely different portrayal and something just as loud to change that memory, hence, Jason Momoa and "fuck Batman"
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 08-28-2020 at 07:37 AM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post



    I think nearly everyone here thinks Heroes in Crisis was at best an interesting dumpster fire. But why is only Harley brought up as a character who was written badly anymore, and not Batman or Superman?
    People regularly criticize how everyone was written in that story not just Harley.

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by upmiddowntown View Post
    Around what time did she get these elite fighting skills?
    You are aware she was trained to fight on themiscyra pre flashpoint right? And that's after the fact she was made superhuman

    Even the general image you have of Harley is a psychological ploy she puts out to get people to view her as weak and underestimate her and give her an advantage in a fight

    That's why she couldn't stay with the Joker because he began to resent her plans actually working and subsequently began abusing her

  13. #88
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    You are aware she was trained to fight on themiscyra pre flashpoint right? And that's after the fact she was made superhuman
    I feel like both of those things are so minor that they fell by the wayside for a reason.

    It's just not what she's known for and neither of those things are actively referenced that much, are they?

  14. #89

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    I cannot speak for the rest of the forum, but I dig Harley Quinn. It's just that people usually have really strong opinions about her, so I don't typically like to wade into conversations about the character.

  15. #90
    Mighty Member jb681131's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomideaguy View Post
    I cannot speak for the rest of the forum, but I dig Harley Quinn. It's just that people usually have really strong opinions about her, so I don't typically like to wade into conversations about the character.
    Well she was a great creation by Paul Dini and Bruce Timm. Great design and interresting appearances. Then she add a great origin story in "Mad Love".

    After she joined de DC Comics canon univers. And her design changed. And she split-up from the Joker. And she Joined the new stupid Suicid Squad. And then she had a solo title with a big buch of pretty stupid stories.

    I will agree that I read a few interresting solo stories with her during the New52 era and a few specials with her. But other than that, she's useless (and I find her ugly).

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