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  1. #901
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Facist Cap is the one that conquered the US and blew up Las Vegas. Not that hard to tell the difference.

    As far as what Wanda did in house of m ... she was possessed. And in comics mind control, possession, etc always gets you a free pass. It's not necessarily overnight, but it works that way because it obviously has to. If every hero who did something under those sort of circumstances were held accountable for their actions, every hero on earth would be behind bars apart from Moon Girl. It's an occupational hazard. Most comic book writers and readers understand that... which is why most stories have Wanda moving on part it long ago. It's just the X books which want to millk it a little more... which obviously is their right.
    Not always. Cyclops didnt get a free pass. He was ostracized by the superhero community at large, shunned by the X-men and was a fugitive for years. And this was despite everyone knowing he was possessed and the crimes he committed while possessed were constantly thrown in his face. So yea, I cant agree with you that possession always grants a person a free pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    The problem is that "by the book" depends on, well, the book. And Wanda doesn't get the benefit of the doubt that other characters get.

    So Hickman had Wanda try to resurrect mutants, fail miserably, and get lectured by Strange on what an idiot she was. As many people pointed out, Strange just recently had a whole story where he tried to resurrect a city full of dead people. Hickman didn't acknowledge that story and, frankly, there was no reason for him to do so; that's not the point of this story.

    But with Wanda people talk about her as if somehow she's a real person who screwed up, instead of a character who is written in wildly inconsistent ways.

    So the reason other characters have acted more responsibly than Wanda under Hickman is not anything inherent to Wanda's character, it's just that he chooses to write some characters well and some characters badly. Every character is written badly sometimes, it's just that people act like a few pages of Wanda behaving badly should define her character more than the decades of pages of her being the opposite.
    Its not a few pages in one book. Its well over a decade and multiple writers and books that have formed people's opinion on modern Wanda who has had a very consistent history of recent screwups. Hickman didnt help it but he surely didnt start it. The Wanda we saw in Empyre was reminiscent of the character in recent history. I think Hickman actually did better on her in regards to her guilt about M-Day bc thats not something other writers have really highlighted. She showed vulnerability that kept her from looking like the uncaring psychopath that was unaffected by what she had done as we got with Remender in UA
    Last edited by Havok83; 09-15-2020 at 07:14 AM.

  2. #902
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Not always. Cyclops didnt get a free pass. He was ostracized by the superhero community at large, shunned by the X-men and was a fugitive for years. And this was despite everyone knowing he was possessed and the crimes he committed while possessed were constantly thrown in his face. So yea, I cant agree with you that possession always grants a person a free pass.



    Its not a few pages in one book. Its well over a decade and multiple writers and books that have formed people's opinion on modern Wanda who has had a very consistent history of recent screwups. Hickman didnt help it but he surely didnt start it. The Wanda we saw in Empyre was reminiscent of the character in recent history. I think Hickman actually did better on her in regards to her guilt about M-Day bc thats not something other writers have really highlighted. She showed vulnerability that kept her from looking like the uncaring psychopath that was unaffected by what she had done as we got with Remender in UA
    Cyclops got a free pass eventually. It wasn't overnight, but ultimately people stopped caring and moved on. Same thing for Wanda mostly, outside of the x books. It took years, but these things blow over.

    Everyone has been in this position ... it sucks but it happens.

  3. #903
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Cyclops got a free pass eventually. It wasn't overnight, but ultimately people stopped caring and moved on. Same thing for Wanda mostly, outside of the x books. It took years, but these things blow over.

    Everyone has been in this position ... it sucks but it happens.
    But thats not what a free pass is. No one stopped caring and moved on post AvX. Cyclops only got fully accepted back in the fold with the current era. Before that he had to die and be off the table for years and by the time he came back, those that hated on him the most were gone. Also the biggest sin he committed was killing Xavier and Xavier was brought back before him so continuing to hate him for that in the current era is moot. That is what allowed people to move on, not him being possessed which did diddly squat to change anyone's opinion of him which is why IDA'd with you
    Last edited by Havok83; 09-15-2020 at 08:12 AM.

  4. #904
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    But thats not what a free pass is. No one stopped caring and moved on post AvX. Cyclops only got fully accepted back in the fold with the current era. Before that he had to die and be off the table for years and by the time he came back, those that hated on him the most were gone. Also the biggest sin he committed was killing Xavier and Xavier was brought back before him so continuing to hate him for that in the current era is moot. That is what allowed people to move on, not him being possessed which did diddly squat to change anyone's opinion of him which is why IDA'd with you
    He was a wanted criminal, then he stopped being wanted and no one cared. He got his free pass ... it just wasn't overnight.

    In his case specifically he ended up doing stuff after AvX that ticked off the other Xmen. So it took longer. They got over Avx, but got mad at him again for IvX.

  5. #905
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    He was a wanted criminal, then he stopped being wanted and no one cared. He got his free pass ... it just wasn't overnight.

    In his case specifically he ended up doing stuff after AvX that ticked off the other Xmen. So it took longer. They got over Avx, but got mad at him again for IvX.
    Thats not what a free pass is. Its a get out of jail free card that people will use to excuse your actions. Being possessed by the PF didnt do that for him. Throughout Aaron's run you had the X-men at the JGS hate him and throw Xavier in his his face. Bendis reinforced that too. None of that stopped until Scott died and was resurrected last year with X back himself. People accepting Scott is independent of him being possessed by the PF. That was never his get of jail free card

  6. #906
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Thats not what a free pass is. Its a get out of jail free card that people will use to excuse your actions. Being possessed by the PF didnt do that for him. Throughout Aaron's run you had the X-men at the JGS hate him and throw Xavier in his his face. Bendis reinforced that too. None of that stopped until Scott died and was resurrected last year with X back himself. People accepting Scott is independent of him being possessed by the PF. That was never his get of jail free card
    The Xmen were cool with him by the end of Bendis run. He was on missions again with them at the start of the Inhuman stuff. They ended up getting anrgy with him again, but that was a completely seperate issue.

  7. #907
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The Xmen were cool with him by the end of Bendis run. He was on missions again with them at the start of the Inhuman stuff. They ended up getting anrgy with him again, but that was a completely seperate issue.
    I think you are missing my point which was specifically about the PF being used as a get out of jail free card for him.

    Cycops was seen on a mission with his X-men from Bendis run in DOX, you know P5 and the kids he recruited. The only hater from WATX that was there was Iceman. The two X-men factions were still seperated though and Storm did not support what Scott (well Emma masquarading as him) was doing

  8. #908
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    I think you are missing my point which was specifically about the PF being used as a get out of jail free card for him.

    Cycops was seen on a mission with his X-men from Bendis run in DOX, you know P5 and the kids he recruited. The only hater from WATX that was there was Iceman. The two X-men factions were still seperated though and Storm did not support what Scott (well Emma masquarading as him) was doing
    Cyclops didnt have a faction by that point in the story. It was pretty much just him and his brother.

    Really by that point in time no one cared about AvX. Shield and the Avengers no longer seemed to consider him a criminal ... it was just a matter of the Xmen getting over it. Which took a little while ... but him dying didnt magicaly fix it. If anything they were madder at him after he died.

  9. #909
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Not always. Cyclops didnt get a free pass. He was ostracized by the superhero community at large, shunned by the X-men and was a fugitive for years. And this was despite everyone knowing he was possessed and the crimes he committed while possessed were constantly thrown in his face. So yea, I cant agree with you that possession always grants a person a free pass.



    Its not a few pages in one book. Its well over a decade and multiple writers and books that have formed people's opinion on modern Wanda who has had a very consistent history of recent screwups. Hickman didnt help it but he surely didnt start it. The Wanda we saw in Empyre was reminiscent of the character in recent history. I think Hickman actually did better on her in regards to her guilt about M-Day bc thats not something other writers have really highlighted. She showed vulnerability that kept her from looking like the uncaring psychopath that was unaffected by what she had done as we got with Remender in UA
    But Wanda was off the grid for most of those ten years. This is what annoys me about some of the newer generations of comic book readers. I have the benefit of being a long time reader so I know what went before. I had even dropped out of the fandom for almost 10 years but you know what? When I returned, I hit the back issue bins and did my research. I currently subscribe to Marvel Unlimited and have a Comixology account. So when I come across a character or event I didn't read, I do my research. That way you can recognize BS writing or a writer / editor team that didn't do their due diligence and read the stories. This is why I've always maintained that Bendis read part of Darker than Scarlet but didn't go all the way to the end when Immortus steps into the picture. To use my own current fave, I found it very encouraging to read Doctor Dom writer Christopher Cantwell's interviews where he talks about his fandom going back to having a Secret Wars Doom action figure as a child and naming all the stories he lists as favorites, etc. This is a writer you can be confident that has done the homework. Even if he didn't know the character, do what Hickman did when he took on the Fantastic Four. He bought one of those disks that had over 500 issues of the run and read every issue up to that point. I am disappointed to hear how he's handling Wanda but then he was mentored by Bendis when he started at Marvel. Bendis worked with him as a co-writer on Secret Warriors for a while.

  10. #910

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfish View Post
    The reason is that the X-Men franchise seems to be stuck in a creative dead end and aside from pitting them against other Marvel heroes and teams there appears to be precious little anyone wants to do with them. Their own villains are mostly played out and hence got shuffled in with the rest of their cast, while the interchangeable anti-mutant groups got boring a long time ago and only provide forgettable fight-scene fodder. The never-ending discussions about Wanda and HoM show that that event was the most interesting thing to happen to the X-Men in decades, and even Hickman's massive retcon has yet to take the franchise beyond its sphere of influence.
    I don't know about interesting. Inflammatory or infamous fit the bill though. But it's probably all the same to the bean counters at Marvel.
    Was Curlytop

  11. #911

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixThanos View Post
    With Wanda and the Vision series coming soon, Wanda will soon be in the spotlight imo
    Not really. She is getting a mini, Darkhold. But that's about it. Darkhold was already a thing before her show was announced. After it was announced, they changed the cover from Doctor Doom to Wanda. So they are doing bare minimum.
    Was Curlytop

  12. #912
    Fantastic Member PhoenixThanos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Not really. She is getting a mini, Darkhold. But that's about it. Darkhold was already a thing before her show was announced. After it was announced, they changed the cover from Doctor Doom to Wanda. So they are doing bare minimum.
    That's unfortunate, Wanda hasn't had a good run with the Avengers since Kurt Busiek/George Perez.
    I believe she would fit in perfectly with the current Avengers roster of Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Captain Marvel, Black Panther, She Hulk and Ghost Rider (Robbie Reyes).
    I enjoy anything Marvel cosmic, especially Thanos or Dark Phoenix related, loved the original Uncanny Avengers series.

    (Marvel/DC fan for 42+ years)

  13. #913

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    Wanda in Empyre: “Well that’s consistent with recent stories”.

    Wanda in Decimation/M-Day: “We’ll just ignore previous canon, el oh el”.

  14. #914
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfish View Post
    The reason is that the X-Men franchise seems to be stuck in a creative dead end and aside from pitting them against other Marvel heroes and teams there appears to be precious little anyone wants to do with them. Their own villains are mostly played out and hence got shuffled in with the rest of their cast, while the interchangeable anti-mutant groups got boring a long time ago and only provide forgettable fight-scene fodder. The never-ending discussions about Wanda and HoM show that that event was the most interesting thing to happen to the X-Men in decades, and even Hickman's massive retcon has yet to take the franchise beyond its sphere of influence.
    I totally agree with this. In the "old days" Stan Lee, Roy Thomas or Claremont would mix it up. They faced Doctor Doom, the Super Adaptoid, Blastaar, and the cosmic entity known as the Stranger. They had intergalactic adventures with the Shi'Ar and fought the Brood. They had traveled to the Savage Land. Even the Phoenix is old hat and treated almost like a kind of pet or a watered down version of possession like on one of those ghost adventures shows. Certainly the strength of the X-Men is using the title to examine issues of bigotry and prejudice. But sometimes you want a nice dessert with that heavy meal. And I really despise the trend of hero vs hero that was kicked off by Civil War and know seems to have spread throughout Marvel which only makes thing worse.

  15. #915

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixThanos View Post
    That's unfortunate, Wanda hasn't had a good run with the Avengers since Kurt Busiek/George Perez.
    I believe she would fit in perfectly with the current Avengers roster of Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Captain Marvel, Black Panther, She Hulk and Ghost Rider (Robbie Reyes).
    She would. Robbie I think is the only one she hasn't met. The others she spent a lot of time with, was friends with.
    Was Curlytop

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