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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    If not for Wanda Vision, I think they might have.

    But I suspect that Wanda Vision will draw some elements from the Disassembled/House of M stuff (just a guess... could be 100% wrong about that), and the comics for the purposes of synergy will address those issues in the books. But we'll see.
    I think you're probably right, because the MCU is so heavily influenced by Marvel stories from the 2000s. The best we can hope for is that the MCU doesn't usually trash characters the way the comics do. See for example how "Civil War" in the comics turned Iron Man into a near-fascist, making many fans hate him for years, while the movie inspired by the event went to huge lengths to make sure they didn't do anything to make Tony unsympathetic.

    Wanda isn't as important a character as Tony Stark, obviously, so there isn't a guarantee that they won't do wrong by her, but the comics have this way of just casually making characters horrible for the sake of an event, on the basis that angry fans buy more comics and the angrier they get, the better the event will sell. Wanda is hardly the only victim of this, since it happens practically every year; it's just that what happened to her had long-term consequences for two big comics franchises. But everyone has their own complaint about a favorite character who was written out of character for the sake of a big event.

  2. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    If not for Wanda Vision, I think they might have.

    But I suspect that Wanda Vision will draw some elements from the Disassembled/House of M stuff (just a guess... could be 100% wrong about that), and the comics for the purposes of synergy will address those issues in the books. But we'll see.
    I hope not, because it's tiring. And if Wanda gets trashed the same way in the MCU, then the character is probably done for.
    Was Curlytop

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I hope not, because it's tiring. And if Wanda gets trashed the same way in the MCU, then the character is probably done for.
    It'll mean that JLA/Avengers will be the finale for the character as we knew her (maybe it already is). It will make her last line in the event - the last line any hero gets in the event - unintentionally poignant, knowing that this is from 2004 and we know what was about to happen to her in comics.



    Which reminds me of the fan theory that Avengers Disassembled/House of M were caused by Wanda's exposure to the DC Universe's chaos magic and that therefore the Lords of Chaos were to blame all along.
    Last edited by gurkle; 08-27-2020 at 02:13 PM.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    If not for Wanda Vision, I think they might have.

    But I suspect that Wanda Vision will draw some elements from the Disassembled/House of M stuff (just a guess... could be 100% wrong about that), and the comics for the purposes of synergy will address those issues in the books. But we'll see.
    Kevin Feige chose a woman, and a feminist at that, to be showrunner, and there are many women writers and producers working on the show. I think that is quite a deliberate decision, because Feige is aware of how problematic the source material is. He wants all the sexist stuff completely ripped out.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Mutant powers can be analagous to a limb. Removing them can be the equivalent to maiming someone and/or destroy one of their senses. Imagine waking up and not being able to hear or have an arm missing. Mutants had a part of them stripped which was a part of how they had come to function in the world.
    Or a genetic disease depending on if the mutation is actually helpful or not.
    There are mutations that gives people weird skin color and bone structure, or something that can kill them.
    That is one part of X-lore that is less addressed, since it's a superhero story, they won't really focus on mutants that doesn't really have superpowers, but are just "different".(Minor power with huge inconvenience of life, appearance change without much other difference, etc)

  6. #186
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitParallel View Post
    I have enjoyed most of Hickman’s work except for his current X-Men run. I liked HoX and PoX but the on going x-books have been so boring imo. However, this isn’t a rant about Hickmans X-books. This is more about the recent issue where not only was Dr Strange out of character but the Wanda hate too.

    Hickmans Wanda hate is so ancient, he is referencing a „crime“that took place over a decade ago. Can we MOVE ON? not only that but wasn’t it „fixed“ and „addressed“ a long time ago? Did Hickman do his homework? I think not.

    Another issue; the Wanda hate is so random and kinda hypocritical. He has notorious X-Villains roaming around Krakoa, cracking a cold one with the „heroes“ but god forbid they move past Wanda‘s mental breakdown.

    As an Iron Man Fan, there is nothing worse than having writers constantly referencing one event where your favourite character was portrayed in a negative/villainous way. It sucks and to have your favourite be the Butt Monkey for the writers, it can kill your love for comics.

    What are your guys thoughts?
    In Children’s Crusade, Cyclops was stopped from dragging Wanda away to be put on trial, so I do think there are unresolved issues with mutants and Wanda. And my own personal opinion is Wanda said “No more Avengers” long before “no more mutants”, which ran the whole time from Avengers Disassembled till Secret Wars, so I am quite fine that Hickman regards Wanda as disfunctional.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In the case of Wanda's decimation, the X-Men writers in the comics afterwards repeatedly dealt with the aftermath of Genosha and the M-Day. Emma Frost is a genocide survivor, she was in Genosha when the Sentinels made landfall, and she survived by means of secondary mutation, turning into diamond. Her students were not so lucky. Her conversion from amoral villain to amoral hero and X-Men traces itself to Genosha.
    Emma's not the face you want for Genosha, she constantly backslides into villainy and has many vile crimes against mutants she hasn't been held to account for. Did she ever face any legal consequences for the man she murdered in the PF? The problem is that the X-writers like Emma, they don't like Wanda.

    The comics repeatedly dealt with and individualized the stories of the people who lost powers on M-Day, most recently in Hickman's X-Men #7, where Melody Guthrie/Aero lost her powers thanks to Wanda is determined at all costs to get it back.
    Which Apocalypse has exploited to indoctrinate her in a ritual sacrifice ceremony where he stabs her with a sword and she bleeds to death in front of a whole crowd.

    So the answer to your question is, no. The X-Men did many stories individualizing and dealing with the aftermath of these stories. They weren't treated as faceless masses in the stories by any means.
    The Genosha mutants as a faction are non-existent in the X-books, unless they were on the X-men or a villainous faction like the Brotherhood they don't exist. In Genosha Magneto had problems stopping rivals of separate groups trying to commit coups because of how he keeps them in line, as shown in "Powerless." Completely ignored in Krakoa. They didn't have name then, they don't have names now.

    And furthermore, in real life people feel bad about the mass deaths of the Holocaust, or the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki even if most people do not personally or individually know any single person who died in those events, nor are most of them related or connected to them. I don't know anyone who died in 9/11, but I still feel pretty bad about it. The same with mass shootings across America, or with the far greater magnitude of mass deaths happening with the ongoing coronavirus deaths around us (many times greater already then the numbers who died in Vietnam, Korea, the Gulf Wars, Afghanistan, mass shootings, terrorist attacks on American soil).
    Magneto and the various villains in Krakoa aren't endlessly remorseful for their acts like that, instead they spent more time living it up than trying to atone. Magneto's become Krkaao's Superman, which he and Exodus have contributed in giving various kids they meet that perception and nobody bats an eye. The fact is the tragedies only matter where the writers want them too, and they want Wanda's to stick they want you to forget anyone else's on krakoa.

    This idea that one can't feel bad over massacres unless they individually know people is facetious, and insulting.
    It is insulting, yet that's what the X-titles do. Various characters have contributed numerous horrific acts on the mutant committee over the years, including magneto himself, and they're swept under the rug because bringing them up in conversation would be awkward. But Wanda? Wave arms around vaguely, show a cemetery and have famous mutants like the Blob affected and it's bought up every time her names said. Magneto should have murdered millions of mutants in his "Magneto War" fiasco, but nothing. Joseph got more pushback from the X-men for being Magneto when he joined the X-men than Magneto does today. And that's just one person, he's far from alone in this narrative.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 08-27-2020 at 10:52 PM.

  8. #188
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    How many threads are there about this? 3 dedicated threads, I think, at this point.

    My view is what it has always been: House of M is a story that Wanda barely appears in, it gets everything wrong about her character and history, and it ends with her doing something that should disqualify her from being a hero ever again if we take it seriously.

    So I don't take it seriously, just like we ignore other things that our favorite characters do when they're out of character. You can headcanon that it was Doom's fault, or just ignore it altogether, but it is just a writer's mistake about the character and her powers.

    The idea that this must be addressed, instead of retconned or dismissed, is just that the moment had a lot of impact on the X-Men books going forward, and there's this idea that she must be punished for things that happened in books she didn't appear in, based on a story that mis-characterized her as an omnipotent self-hating mutant.

    I have to admit I don't really understand this attitude of blaming characters for something one writer made them do in one story; usually when a character acts badly in a story, I accept that this is just that one writer's characterization for that one story, and don't hold it against them when they appear with another writer. That's taking the shared-universe concept too far. I know other people are really into the idea that a character's actions in one story should be held against them in every story, but I don't get it.

    Unfortunately we're now seeing that Hickman is bringing this up as a way of exploiting the automatic controversy that Wanda creates among X-Men readers. I will be happy to be wrong if he's going to do something decent with the character, but I doubt it. He never used core classic Avengers like Wanda in his Avengers run and I strongly doubt he has any interest in the character outside of those few pages from House of M.
    Can we get issue numbers where this attack by Dr Strange happened to Wanda?

  9. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    In Children’s Crusade, Cyclops was stopped from dragging Wanda away to be put on trial, so I do think there are unresolved issues with mutants and Wanda. And my own personal opinion is Wanda said “No more Avengers” long before “no more mutants”, which ran the whole time from Avengers Disassembled till Secret Wars, so I am quite fine that Hickman regards Wanda as disfunctional.
    It wasn't even long before. It was right before. Both events were to serve a purpose. To change the Avengers drastically, and to depower millions of mutants and restrict that down to 250.
    Was Curlytop

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximoffTrash View Post
    Or a genetic disease depending on if the mutation is actually helpful or not.
    There are mutations that gives people weird skin color and bone structure, or something that can kill them.
    That is one part of X-lore that is less addressed, since it's a superhero story, they won't really focus on mutants that doesn't really have superpowers, but are just "different".(Minor power with huge inconvenience of life, appearance change without much other difference, etc)
    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Mutant powers can be analagous to a limb. Removing them can be the equivalent to maiming someone and/or destroy one of their senses. Imagine waking up and not being able to hear or have an arm missing. Mutants had a part of them stripped which was a part of how they had come to function in the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    It wasn't even long before. It was right before. Both events were to serve a purpose. To change the Avengers drastically, and to depower millions of mutants and restrict that down to 250.
    QFT. I think this started this trend that continued far too long ...instead of hero vs villain, there were more stories where it was hero vs hero. In this, Wanda IMO is not totally culpable. But then we got Civil War and later Avengers vs X-Men, etc. In some ways we can include Secret Invasion too since the Skrulls were disguised as heroes. Sometimes I can imagine the villains chilling out and just watching them tear each other down.

  11. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    This idea that one can't feel bad over massacres unless they individually know people is facetious, and insulting.
    Which is odd when you consider the fact that plenty of X-Fans proudly proclaim they dont care about the broccoli people or the billions Bishop killed, simply because they were nameless/faceless.

    Also the fact that the Phoenix Force was destroying many planets in its path to reignite mutantdom is celebrated. I forget exactly, but was it mentioned if any of these planets had sentient life?

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    QFT. I think this started this trend that continued far too long ...instead of hero vs villain, there were more stories where it was hero vs hero. In this, Wanda IMO is not totally culpable. But then we got Civil War and later Avengers vs X-Men, etc. In some ways we can include Secret Invasion too since the Skrulls were disguised as heroes. Sometimes I can imagine the villains chilling out and just watching them tear each other down.
    Indeed like many events with heroes vs heroes it is always a bad serious if events that lead into the next that lead to mutiple characters and events playing into some of the negative outcomes of these stories. That is why the argument leading Wanda by some to be fully culpable falls apart when you just read into the events and besides possession if it was not for a series of REALLY bad choices other events would not have happen, like M-Day.

    Really the lesson is when heroes try to take the low road to solve problems it always leads to bad outcomes and HoM is a series of these low roads that are the real reasons for these tragedies;


    Last edited by CJStriker; 08-27-2020 at 11:29 PM.
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  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    By the logic of the Marvel universe, turning nearly all mutants into non-mutants would be genocide. You don't have to kill people to wipe them out as a group, you can just forcibly convert them.

    Which is all the more reason why writers should stop tying this around Wanda's neck. If she did it, if she chose to wipe out mutants, it's something that no heroic character can come back from, and I think the writers understood this and assumed the character would never be a hero again (it doesn't help that many people knew her more as Magneto's daughter/Brotherhood member than her 40 years of stories as an Avenger). It's a mild miracle that she came back as much as she did.

    Again, if they shift the blame to Doom (and all the reasons why Doom couldn't have done it are nothing as compared to the reasons Wanda couldn't have done it) it doesn't hurt a villain as much as it hurts a hero. But it's also fine to say she was possessed by some force that made her do this against her will, or just drop the whole thing and proceed on the basis that she didn't do it but no one has explained who did.

    But any version of the story that assumes Wanda did it is wrong, because she's a hero and heroes don't do that.
    see this is why i cant sympathize, why is doom who has no reason or way to even be near wanda when it happened, be trown under the bus for wanda? what makes this character so above dr doom and the x-men they have to bend over backwards to "save" this one character

  14. #194
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    Which is odd when you consider the fact that plenty of X-Fans proudly proclaim they dont care about the broccoli people or the billions Bishop killed, simply because they were nameless/faceless.

    Also the fact that the Phoenix Force was destroying many planets in its path to reignite mutantdom is celebrated. I forget exactly, but was it mentioned if any of these planets had sentient life?
    Is it odd, though?

    That theres a biais when the X-men or the Phnix are concerned, it seems rather obvious to me.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    see this is why i cant sympathize, why is doom who has no reason or way to even be near wanda when it happened, be trown under the bus for wanda? what makes this character so above dr doom and the x-men they have to bend over backwards to "save" this one character
    The X-men, and therefore Krakao, knows Doom may have had a bigger role in M-day than they previously know so why would they do nothing about it? He's Doom, they have no reason to think he isn't capable of doing it.

    They're not doing anything of the sort, the X-men have gone through this with characters like Jean Grey. They fought for her when she was compromised by a cosmic entity, this is no different. They used to be friends of Wanda.

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