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  1. #1
    Lazy Struggler BitParallel's Avatar
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    Default Wanda's unforgivable crime?!

    I have enjoyed most of Hickman’s work except for his current X-Men run. I liked HoX and PoX but the on going x-books have been so boring imo. However, this isn’t a rant about Hickmans X-books. This is more about the recent issue where not only was Dr Strange out of character but the Wanda hate too.

    Hickmans Wanda hate is so ancient, he is referencing a „crime“that took place over a decade ago. Can we MOVE ON? not only that but wasn’t it „fixed“ and „addressed“ a long time ago? Did Hickman do his homework? I think not.

    Another issue; the Wanda hate is so random and kinda hypocritical. He has notorious X-Villains roaming around Krakoa, cracking a cold one with the „heroes“ but god forbid they move past Wanda‘s mental breakdown.

    As an Iron Man Fan, there is nothing worse than having writers constantly referencing one event where your favourite character was portrayed in a negative/villainous way. It sucks and to have your favourite be the Butt Monkey for the writers, it can kill your love for comics.

    What are your guys thoughts?
    Yikes, my grammar has gone to shit. Rip

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    For me, whatever Hickman (and his acolytes) can say  and write  dont matter much: the characters that were written in a compelling, in-depth way a long time ago have marked me, they are the ones who are important to me. If an author doesnt bother to write a character with the good characterization, it is fanfiction. There are fanfictions I like and fanfictions I dont like.

    Im just puzzled by any kind of hate towards a character, it is so strange to me.

  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitParallel View Post
    Hickmans Wanda hate is so ancient, he is referencing a „crime“that took place over a decade ago. Can we MOVE ON? not only that but wasn’t it „fixed“ and „addressed“ a long time ago?
    Firstly, in the fiction of the Marvel Universe, it's not been "ten years". Per comic book time, only 14 years passed since the FF flew that rocket. For the mutants, it's been 10 years since Professor Xavier first met Moira MacTaggert. SO the entire period of X-Men (the Claremont years, the Morrison years, the Whedon years, the Post-HoM years...all that happened in a very short period of time...if you find that hard to fathom, welcome to comics).

    So Wanda's actions in House of M is pretty recent memory for mutants.

    Secondly, Wanda's actions is tantamount to mass sterilization and amount to a kind of genocide. There's no statute of limitations on that in real life. I mean there are many stories of war criminals and others slipping into civilian life only to be revealed and exposed to his neighbors that they did terrible stuff in a war. So it happening 10 years ago is no excuse.

    Thirdly, look Hank Pym is never gonna be a hero again for what he did to Janet, and he still gets a lot of grief and is called out multiple times for creating Ultron, a genocidal robot. So if he doesn't get a pass, I don't see how Scarlet Witch qualifies.

    Fourthly, it wasn't addressed. The Children's Crusade feinted where they tried to make Doom responsible but the same story had Wolverine at the end say that Doom is fibbing in an effort to help Wanda and it wasn't explicit and nobody at Marvel is comfortable making Doom responsible for the mass culling of mutants.

    At least, Hickman is allowing for the possibility of redemption...and indeed it is far more possible for Wanda to find a great good to counter the action of harm she did...then it is for Hank Pym to undo all the stuff he did.

    Another issue; the Wanda hate is so random and kinda hypocritical. He has notorious X-Villains roaming around Krakoa, cracking a cold one with the „heroes“ but god forbid they move past Wanda‘s mental breakdown.
    From the perspective of the mutants, it's Wanda Maximoff who did the most harm to them in 616 Marvel. She was the one who took over their powers all out of a sense of resentment and frustration at the person she thought was her father. I mean going "no more mutants" wasn't justifiable in any sense.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Firstly, in the fiction of the Marvel Universe, it's not been "ten years". Per comic book time, only 14 years passed since the FF flew that rocket. For the mutants, it's been 10 years since Professor Xavier first met Moira MacTaggert. SO the entire period of X-Men (the Claremont years, the Morrison years, the Whedon years, the Post-HoM years...all that happened in a very short period of time...if you find that hard to fathom, welcome to comics).

    So Wanda's actions in House of M is pretty recent memory for mutants.

    Secondly, Wanda's actions is tantamount to mass sterilization and amount to a kind of genocide. There's no statute of limitations on that in real life. I mean there are many stories of war criminals and others slipping into civilian life only to be revealed and exposed to his neighbors that they did terrible stuff in a war. So it happening 10 years ago is no excuse.
    So did Sinister. Many, many mutants in krkaoa have done crimes like that, on the small and large scale. And unlike Wanda they're proud of it. They did these crimes to their own mutant brothers and sisters, too. Age of Apocalypse was 616 canon temporarily, and Apocalypse has spent his entire life trying to create that and in many futures he succeeded. But all the lives they've ruined is waved away. Wanda's also had extenuating circumstances and unlike others it's haunted her for years, can't say the same for the Phoenix Five with the latter. The Phoenix Five didn't pay for their crimes, didn't even get trial. Now, nobody cares what they did.

    Thirdly, look Hank Pym is never gonna be a hero again for what he did to Janet, and he still gets a lot of grief and is called out multiple times for creating Ultron, a genocidal robot. So if he doesn't get a pass, I don't see how Scarlet Witch qualifies.
    Hank remains hero after all that, numerous writers try to rehabilitate him and try to make him not look evil or stupid. He didn't create Ultron to be evil, it's a Mile Dyson situation with Skynet. Ultron was evil on its own, that's why that technology is constantly origins for murderous robots in fiction. Their inventors don't know it's a Pandora's box until it's too late.

    Fourthly, it wasn't addressed. The Children's Crusade feinted where they tried to make Doom responsible but the same story had Wolverine at the end say that Doom is fibbing in an effort to help Wanda and it wasn't explicit and nobody at Marvel is comfortable making Doom responsible for the mass culling of mutants.
    That shouldn't be the end of it, though. Wolverine doesn't spoeak for all mutant kind, Doom should be a huge priority to take down after Krakao was made for that. But he's not. And it's not like anyone researched further, despite the fact Krkaao has all they need to do this. It's kind of strange for them to not care about this when it's about M-Day. They'll try to kill Wanda over it but with Doom they want to forget? No.

    At least, Hickman is allowing for the possibility of redemption...and indeed it is far more possible for Wanda to find a great good to counter the action of harm she did...then it is for Hank Pym to undo all the stuff he did.
    Hickman wrote her like a boiler plate villain in his Avengers, despite the fact Doom tried to steal her powers for his own shady agenda. Empyre didn't help.

    From the perspective of the mutants, it's Wanda Maximoff who did the most harm to them in 616 Marvel. She was the one who took over their powers all out of a sense of resentment and frustration at the person she thought was her father. I mean going "no more mutants" wasn't justifiable in any sense.
    Except not every mutant should feel like this, especially those who know her. She's not a stranger to that community. There are numerous people who have done incredible harm to mutants in 616, many of which are in Krakao. Neither was killing millions or trying to kill billions to blackmail the United Nations for political power, two people who did this are on the Quiet Council and have been the face of Krakoa to the world. Wanda's shown more remorse for her act than they ever did over the years. It's not like Apocalypse or Magneto are spending time trying to resurrect victims and Wanda's trying to help mutants who weren't effected by M-Day. Mutants who have been absent from Krkaoa itself, when they should be a big faction making noise politically on krkaoa or elsewhere.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Secondly, Wanda's actions is tantamount to mass sterilization and amount to a kind of genocide. There's no statute of limitations on that in real life. I mean there are many stories of war criminals and others slipping into civilian life only to be revealed and exposed to his neighbors that they did terrible stuff in a war. So it happening 10 years ago is no excuse.
    Tantamount to mass sterilization and amount to a kind of genocide? Please These things imply a design, a plan

    What did Wanda was an example of a pissed-off super-being can do in a fit of temper. Theres no real analogy in our world.

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    What did Wanda was an example of a pissed-off super-being can do in a fit of temper. There’s no real analogy in our world.
    Well there's drunk driving, and stuff people say when they are drunk. We don't simply consider being drunk an excuse for someone when they say racist things while high on a bender. People assume that there was something deep in that person that just came out. Or if someone was drunk and ran over a kid, or if a schooldriver or a pilot was drunk and they had an accident that resulted in mass deaths, do we say "they weren't in the right state of mind?"

    In Wanda's case, was she in the best emotional state when she did that? No. If she were stable would she have done it? No. But at the end of the day, did she do it? Yes.

    Even leaving all that, Wanda's action is disproportionate in the extreme. In House of M, it was the Avengers who were the ones who lied to her about the children and hid her mind-wipe of memories from her, and it was Magneto who was a jerk to her and Pietro. If she had taken powers away from the Avengers or Magneto...you could call that revenge, righteous anger and righteous grievance, or chickens coming home to roost. Instead she took away powers from a swathe of innocent people who had done nothing to her, and who don't deserve to lose their powers because of what people close to Wanda had done to her.

    From a Doylist perspective, this is why House of M is a terrible story. Because the biggest thing of House of M -- removing mutants of their powers and Wanda doing it -- doesn't proceed logically from the dramatic conflict in Wanda's life. The story is a small intimate personal story of super-teams and their major malfunctions doesn't connect logically with an action and beat that calls for mass sterilization of mutants, and the fact that this was an Avengers story first and foremost and not done in an X-Men story is also a major editorial faux-pas. Using event stories to alter the status-quo of a single line of publication which doesn't happen in the main titles.

    In either case, House of M happened, Wanda did it. And it defines her. For a bunch of mutants she is "the pretender Wanda Maximoff" who took away their powers and identity and being. And that bill will come due eventually.

  7. #7
    Incredible Member OOTCS's Avatar
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    Wanda is a hero who did something very bad. (Whether it's bad writing or not, it's canon and it had a lot of ramifications.) When a hero does something very bad, they need to earn redemption. I actually like that Hickman is finally giving Wanda the opportunity to do so (even though I don't like the sanctimonious way Dr. Strange keeps lecturing her about it). For nearly a decade, it's been a cycle of the mutants being angry and Wanda feeling bad. Sure, they could handwave it and say she was going through a thing and now it's over, or that the number of times she's saved the world should balance the scales in her favor, but neither of those would be very heroic--and besides, even if they stopped bringing it up in canon, the X-fans would never let it go. The correct way to go about it is the heroic way, by having her face up to her actions and do her best to make it right. Good for her.
    Last edited by OOTCS; 08-24-2020 at 07:38 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOTCS View Post
    Wanda is a hero who did something very bad. (Whether it's bad writing or not, it's canon and it had a lot of ramifications.) When a hero does something very bad, they need to earn redemption. I actually like that Hickman is finally giving Wanda the opportunity to do so (even though I don't like the sanctimonious way Dr. Strange keeps lecturing her about it). For nearly a decade, it's been a cycle of the mutants being angry and Wanda feeling bad. Sure, they could handwave it and say she was going through a thing and now it's over, or that the number of times she's saved the world should balance the scales in her favor, but neither of those would be very heroic--and besides, even if they stopped bringing it up in canon, the X-fans would never let it go. The correct way to go about it is the heroic way, by having her face up to her actions and do her best to make it right. Good for her.
    Its incredibly hypocritical with the Pheonix Five not only being forgiven but forgotten. As well as doing that with every super-villain because they have an x-gene.

  9. #9
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Really, its just being brought up again because Wanda will probably start doing stuff in the Wanda Vision tv show. Not identical stuff obviously ... but I'll wager the source material will be an influence.

  10. #10
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Its incredibly hypocritical with the Pheonix Five not only being forgiven but forgotten. As well as doing that with every super-villain because they have an x-gene.
    I thought Bishop got too much of a free pass. People like Jean, Wanda, and the Phoenix 5 can arguably get off the hook for possession or whatever. That just happens in their line of work. See Axis.

    But Bishop wasn't possessed or controlled or anything like that. He murdered billions purely because he was a baby killing jerk.

  11. #11
    Incredible Member OOTCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Its incredibly hypocritical with the Pheonix Five not only being forgiven but forgotten. As well as doing that with every super-villain because they have an x-gene.
    The Phoenix Five didn't commit genocide. Scott killed Xavier, but Xavier attacked him first, and the two of them seem to have made their private amends. The supervillains are tolerated but not trusted. Is that the standard that we should hold the Scarlet With to?

  12. #12
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    well, it was addressed, but it wasn't fixed. In avx wanda allowed mutants to be born, but the ones who had their powers gone were still powerless.
    And children's crusade went and made her more culpable. Every single time they touch this story they make it worse and worse.

    Though you're still correct about the whole villains pardoned on krakoa. Frankly i see it as propaganda. Paint Wanda as the bad guy supreme while you allow worse people under your wing. A political move to make it seem necessary so while the children cry at the mere mention of Wanda, apocalypse can kill them brutally in gladiatorial combat to be resurrected with their powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post

    But Bishop wasn't possessed or controlled or anything like that. He murdered billions purely because he was a baby killing jerk.
    demon bear possession i think
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 08-24-2020 at 08:03 AM.

  13. #13
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    ah nvm about bishop it was after apparently

    https://imgur.com/a/gIJtMnr

  14. #14
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    How many threads are there about this? 3 dedicated threads, I think, at this point.

    My view is what it has always been: House of M is a story that Wanda barely appears in, it gets everything wrong about her character and history, and it ends with her doing something that should disqualify her from being a hero ever again if we take it seriously.

    So I don't take it seriously, just like we ignore other things that our favorite characters do when they're out of character. You can headcanon that it was Doom's fault, or just ignore it altogether, but it is just a writer's mistake about the character and her powers.

    The idea that this must be addressed, instead of retconned or dismissed, is just that the moment had a lot of impact on the X-Men books going forward, and there's this idea that she must be punished for things that happened in books she didn't appear in, based on a story that mis-characterized her as an omnipotent self-hating mutant.

    I have to admit I don't really understand this attitude of blaming characters for something one writer made them do in one story; usually when a character acts badly in a story, I accept that this is just that one writer's characterization for that one story, and don't hold it against them when they appear with another writer. That's taking the shared-universe concept too far. I know other people are really into the idea that a character's actions in one story should be held against them in every story, but I don't get it.

    Unfortunately we're now seeing that Hickman is bringing this up as a way of exploiting the automatic controversy that Wanda creates among X-Men readers. I will be happy to be wrong if he's going to do something decent with the character, but I doubt it. He never used core classic Avengers like Wanda in his Avengers run and I strongly doubt he has any interest in the character outside of those few pages from House of M.
    Last edited by gurkle; 08-24-2020 at 08:29 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOTCS View Post
    Wanda is a hero who did something very bad. (Whether it's bad writing or not, it's canon and it had a lot of ramifications.) When a hero does something very bad, they need to earn redemption. I actually like that Hickman is finally giving Wanda the opportunity to do so (even though I don't like the sanctimonious way Dr. Strange keeps lecturing her about it). For nearly a decade, it's been a cycle of the mutants being angry and Wanda feeling bad. Sure, they could handwave it and say she was going through a thing and now it's over, or that the number of times she's saved the world should balance the scales in her favor, but neither of those would be very heroic--and besides, even if they stopped bringing it up in canon, the X-fans would never let it go. The correct way to go about it is the heroic way, by having her face up to her actions and do her best to make it right. Good for her.
    Why does Hickman trash her skills as a sorceress, then? Is that because her witchcraft is her own narrative, so he, like Bendis, seeks to trash/remove it?

    Also, there is no credible reason for her to want to have any relationship with Magneto, due to the destruction their relationship has wrought.

    If you put your finger in a socket and get an electric shock, you don't put your finger back in the socket. The socket, the thing you learn to avoid like the plague, for Wanda i
    that is Magneto.

    For Wanda, Magneto and Chthon are identical dangers. They are both corrupting influences that threaten to destroy her.l

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