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  1. #886
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    Redemption has to be given by those you harmed, wanda will never have her redemption by refusing to ask the people she hurt what they want, or never because mutant's a whole shouldn't forgive her, she's a wolf in sheep's clothing.
    Except Marvel hasn't let her be able to do that, the instances she's tried like Children's Crusade go nowhere. She hasn't been a man character in anything until her recent solo series, and that shied away from mutantkind to explore her magic nature. Except mutants, as a population, don't go to for for anything - they either don't talk about her or those who do meet her try to attack her on sight. No compassion, no sympathy, no trying to help her make amends (except Rictor) and because right now Krkaoa would look like hypocrites if they are in the same room as her. What's so odd is how the mutants Marvel's shown to interact her should have some compassion, like with Cyclops and Rogue, but they're interested in vengeance not reform. For someone who's been their friend since the Silver Age. She's not getting a fair trial in Krkaoa, they don't even believe in a law system with lawyers.

    You can bargain wih villains, you can't bargain with the incarnation of chaos in the body of a confused and hypocritical woman who has the good judgment of a vegas gambler
    She's a tool for editorial, a plot device than character in her own right these days. Avengers: Disasessemble and M-Day were created because Marvel needed someone to make those things happen. And the main factor before the retcon was about Wanda being mental ill from her reality warping powers controlling her. Wanda can't control how she's written in Marvel. She wasn't doing that on whim like Sinister does. Now he is a fox in a henhouse in Krakoa.

    She's not a hypocrite, she's mental ill and was possessed by the Life Force.

    And what about Doom? He's completely ignored in this debacle. The man who created Sentinels in latveria, because he's someone you should count on not abusing his time with Wanda when she's desperate.

  2. #887

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    Redemption has to be given by those you harmed, wanda will never have her redemption by refusing to ask the people she hurt what they want, or never because mutant's a whole shouldn't forgive her, she's a wolf in sheep's clothing.
    You can bargain wih villains, you can't bargain with the incarnation of chaos in the body of a confused and hypocritical woman who has the good judgment of a vegas gambler
    I just don't think comics will let that happen at this point. She's just the antagonist to stir things up again for some reason.
    Was Curlytop

  3. #888
    Incredible Member PhoenixThanos's Avatar
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    With Wanda and the Vision series coming soon, Wanda will soon be in the spotlight imo
    I enjoy anything Marvel cosmic, especially Thanos or Dark Phoenix related, loved the original Uncanny Avengers series.

    (Marvel/DC fan for 42+ years)

  4. #889
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Except Marvel hasn't let her be able to do that, the instances she's tried like Children's Crusade go nowhere. She hasn't been a man character in anything until her recent solo series, and that shied away from mutantkind to explore her magic nature. Except mutants, as a population, don't go to for for anything - they either don't talk about her or those who do meet her try to attack her on sight. No compassion, no sympathy, no trying to help her make amends (except Rictor) and because right now Krkaoa would look like hypocrites if they are in the same room as her. What's so odd is how the mutants Marvel's shown to interact her should have some compassion, like with Cyclops and Rogue, but they're interested in vengeance not reform. For someone who's been their friend since the Silver Age. She's not getting a fair trial in Krkaoa, they don't even believe in a law system with lawyers.



    She's a tool for editorial, a plot device than character in her own right these days. Avengers: Disasessemble and M-Day were created because Marvel needed someone to make those things happen. And the main factor before the retcon was about Wanda being mental ill from her reality warping powers controlling her. Wanda can't control how she's written in Marvel. She wasn't doing that on whim like Sinister does. Now he is a fox in a henhouse in Krakoa.

    She's not a hypocrite, she's mental ill and was possessed by the Life Force.

    And what about Doom? He's completely ignored in this debacle. The man who created Sentinels in latveria, because he's someone you should count on not abusing his time with Wanda when she's desperate.
    Wanda doesnt deserve sympathy, like at all she never gave any to the mutants she ruined and she had no compassion to cyclops OR rogue, and she was never their friend at best she was an aquaintance, the x-men can dance in her grave and it wouldn't be nearly half of what she put them trough

  5. #890
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    If they are setting something up, from what we have seen:

    1. They have made zero effort to integrate Wanda with other characters, not any of her Avengers comrades, not even her sons, her ex-husband, not even her current boyfriend ffs. To create any kind of stakes for such a redemption arc, they would need to establish those relationships. This indicates that whatever they are planning will not be about Wanda. She will likely be a PD. If they were serious they would start building her character arc up. No sign of that.

    2. The emphasis of Hickman's interest, the focus of the narrative, is looking to be 100% Magneto; We see this quite clearly in the Exodus campfire scenes and the Empyre tie-ins; Magneto is a hero, he is logical, male, super competent, Wanda is the devil, emotional, female, and incompetent.

    3. Marvel's writers don't have a clue how to write Wanda, so her role will be minimal. Vision obviously won't appear in the story at all, and Brother Voodoo (I begin to suspect those theories that Zub got tricked by Brevoort who just wanted to prevent any MCU synergy may have truth) Wiccan will also be absent. Agatha might just get a small cameo. Clint also won't appear at all. Forget Tony, Steve, or Thor even caring.

    4. The primary characters will very likely be male. Magneto, Xavier, Reed (makes no sense but he will get a big role because of Hickman), Exodus. Wolverine will have a ludicrously inflated role even though he has no history with Wanda.

    5. It will likely set-up a major arc about Magneto, the most appealing option to Marvel editorial and certainly their writers, would be Wanda dying and this creating a lengthy arc about his reactions to this.

    6. Hickman likely doesn't know or jave much idea who Chthon or Set are, or what Wundagore Mountain is, so none of that will be mentioned at all.

    7. If they make an event of it, we will get spin-off comics focused on various characters involved, except Wanda. Zub will be told no.

    8. This will be one of the few occasions Hickman doesn't shoehorn Doctor Doom into a story.
    Last edited by Relugus; 09-15-2020 at 03:43 AM. Reason: Tweaky

  6. #891
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    omg can magneto get a cute costume about this? then im sold!!

  7. #892
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    Oh for sure! This WHOLE mess is on the editors and writers to fix.

    But Children’s Crusade was not a redemption. It was passing the blame, and poorly. It was ‘justification’, not ‘redemption’. Same with AvX. It’s been loopholes and justifications to give her a pass, or flippant arrogance and hasty decision making that is about HER, not the people she DEEPLY wronged, and it’s been that way ever since M-Day.

    It’s ALL on the people crafting the stories to fix. But it won’t be a quick fix. And it shouldn’t be. Hickman likes telling long form stories. Wanda’s actions in the Empyre tie-in are COMPLETELY in character for how Wanda has been portrayed since M- Day, except in her solo, which almost read more like an alternate universe version of her. (One I liked a lot and was sad to see get cancelled, mind you.) it signals that Hickman is AWARE of the problem of Wanda, both in and out of the story. Add that to how she is being set up as the Devil of Krakoa, and it all leads me to think Hickman has a plan to deal with this once and for all. I think she (and long lost Irene) will be instrumental, not in the act one world building or the likely act two fall, but in the act 3 Uplifting of Mutantkind to a new, settled status quo that moves the line - and Wanda - into the future rather than dwelling in the past.
    To me it's exactly the opposite - the writing of Wanda in her solo was in-character, while her few appearances outside her solo are mostly not. Hickman portrayed her as a dumb incompetent selfish idiot who gets lectured by Doctor Strange about what an idiot she is. Maybe your optimism is right and that Hickman is setting up a decent story for her, but I doubt it; I think I agree with Relugus that it will be like House of M, a story that had almost nothing to do with Wanda but used her to drive the plot for other characters.

    I guess I will never understand the idea that we need to consider a character's worst story as defining them. "No more mutants" contradicts everything Wanda ever was or did for 40 years. I don't want her redeemed for it because she could never have done it. I want writers who write her the way she was from 1965-2004, which means acknowledging that Wanda is a hero and a good person and that "No more mutants" is not something she could ever have done. Even a "redemption arc" would just make things worse because it would admit that she did Decimation (which means she can never be a hero again, even if she atoned for it). She doesn't need redemption, she needs to be in stories.

    But I'm a broken record on this. I don't think characters need to be redeemed for stories that are out of character; I think they need to be written in character. I would feel the same way about any character because characterization in one story does not necessarily define them. I hate Strange in Hickman's story for the way he talked to Wanda. It would make no sense for me to hate Strange in another story, with another writer, for the way Hickman wrote him.

    The difference there is just that Strange gets a lot of stories by a lot of writers, and Wanda doesn't. So outside of her solo she's had very few chances to be the actual character, rather than the House of M version who was possessed by Doom or the Life Force or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixThanos View Post
    With Wanda and the Vision series coming soon, Wanda will soon be in the spotlight imo
    I doubt it. She's been in the MCU for years, and they've known about her expanded MCU role for a while now, and they've made no attempt to give her any stories. In "Empyre," an event where her sort-of-son got married, she was not allowed to be in the main event, but she was used in an X-Men miniseries where Hickman portrayed her as a moron.

    I don't think, for whatever reason, Marvel wants to use Wanda in any significant role, so I think they're probably just going to give her to Hickman as a punching bag. Movie synergy won't save her.
    Last edited by gurkle; 09-15-2020 at 04:24 AM.

  8. #893
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I just don't think comics will let that happen at this point. She's just the antagonist to stir things up again for some reason.
    The reason is that the X-Men franchise seems to be stuck in a creative dead end and aside from pitting them against other Marvel heroes and teams there appears to be precious little anyone wants to do with them. Their own villains are mostly played out and hence got shuffled in with the rest of their cast, while the interchangeable anti-mutant groups got boring a long time ago and only provide forgettable fight-scene fodder. The never-ending discussions about Wanda and HoM show that that event was the most interesting thing to happen to the X-Men in decades, and even Hickman's massive retcon has yet to take the franchise beyond its sphere of influence.

  9. #894
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    To me it's exactly the opposite - the writing of Wanda in her solo was in-character, while her few appearances outside her solo are mostly not. Hickman portrayed her as a dumb incompetent selfish idiot who gets lectured by Doctor Strange about what an idiot she is. Maybe your optimism is right and that Hickman is setting up a decent story for her, but I doubt it; I think I agree with Relugus that it will be like House of M, a story that had almost nothing to do with Wanda but used her to drive the plot for other characters.

    I guess I will never understand the idea that we need to consider a character's worst story as defining them. "No more mutants" contradicts everything Wanda ever was or did for 40 years. I don't want her redeemed for it because she could never have done it. I want writers who write her the way she was from 1965-2004, which means acknowledging that Wanda is a hero and a good person and that "No more mutants" is not something she could ever have done. Even a "redemption arc" would just make things worse because it would admit that she did Decimation (which means she can never be a hero again, even if she atoned for it). She doesn't need redemption, she needs to be in stories.

    But I'm a broken record on this. I don't think characters need to be redeemed for stories that are out of character; I think they need to be written in character. I would feel the same way about any character because characterization in one story does not necessarily define them. I hate Strange in Hickman's story for the way he talked to Wanda. It would make no sense for me to hate Strange in another story, with another writer, for the way Hickman wrote him.

    The difference there is just that Strange gets a lot of stories by a lot of writers, and Wanda doesn't. So outside of her solo she's had very few chances to be the actual character, rather than the House of M version who was possessed by Doom or the Life Force or whatever.



    I doubt it. She's been in the MCU for years, and they've known about her expanded MCU role for a while now, and they've made no attempt to give her any stories. In "Empyre," an event where her sort-of-son got married, she was not allowed to be in the main event, but she was used in an X-Men miniseries where Hickman portrayed her as a moron.

    I don't think, for whatever reason, Marvel wants to use Wanda in any significant role, so I think they're probably just going to give her to Hickman as a punching bag. Movie synergy won't save her.
    wanda did house of m and she is a mooron, she is the type of person that could do house of m because she did it, there's no point in denial

  10. #895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    wanda did house of m and she is a mooron, she is the type of person that could do house of m because she did it, there's no point in denial
    Characters are bigger than whoever is writing them this year. Your favorite hero does not become a monster because of one page by one writer; that’s putting plot above character. Would any Captain America fan go, “well, he’s a Nazi and always was” if they made him HYDRA and never bothered to turn him back?

    Wanda is unusual because House of M was read by more people than read most of her in-character stories. But it’s still just one story that she barely even appears in. Why should her fans believe it over the previous 40 years?
    Last edited by gurkle; 09-15-2020 at 05:30 AM.

  11. #896
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Characters are bigger than whoever is writing them this year. Your favorite hero does not become a monster because of one page by one writer; that’s putting plot above character. Would any Captain America fan go, “well, he’s a Nazi and always was” if they made him HYDRA and never bothered to turn him back?

    Wanda is unusual because House of M was read by more people than read most of her in-character stories. But it’s still just one story that she barely even appears in. Why should her fans believe it over the previous 40 years?
    well I personally didnt notice much of a difrence betwen the two caps, fascist cap was like finding a fork in the kitchen.
    And wanda, like you said, is less important than house of M and its ramifications, it is what it is.

  12. #897
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    well I personally didnt notice much of a difrence betwen the two caps, fascist cap was like finding a fork in the kitchen.
    And wanda, like you said, is less important than house of M and its ramifications, it is what it is.
    Fascist Cap is a Nazi and he conquers America. He wanted to kill Red Skull because he didn't think he went far enough, that's how evil he is. The real Steve Rogers is his antithesis.

    Wanda's been a high profile on and off again distinguished member of the Avengers since the 40's. This Wanda Maximoff is how she's supposed to be written. She's a hero. Ramifications weren't made without context, and she has far more lenient context than half the Quiet Council. Emma Frost and Shaw both endangered the universe because they couldn't stop thinking about the X-men as if they were meat to be traded. Because they don't care about mutants or people in general.



    Wanda is a crucial part in why 616 wasn't permanently changed into the middle ages where Morgana Le Faye rules like an evil queen. That's just once she's saved the world.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 09-15-2020 at 06:05 AM.

  13. #898
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Krakoa has no sole right to resurrect people, and certainly not entitled to another countries bodies. There are named mutants who were in the X-men titles long before they moved to Genosha, and Genosha doesn't define any of their identities Krakoa does. Genoshan mutants exist in the abstract, they had more of an impact being nobodies in the X-titles before Krakoa was founded. All the political ideologies they had are nowhere to be found in krakoa, they have no presence as a group in the X-men titles.

    But would this be a mess if she was successful? Until very recently Krakoa didn't care about duplicates, X-Factor the group responsible for making sure of that is a small team who's supposed to check on thousands, millions once Genosha's mutants are resurrected. And how would she know? Krakoa's a closed society, they're not telling anyone outside their borders anything. Their resurrection protocols are their biggest secrets. Despite Wanda being a long time friend they're not giving her the time of day, despite the fact Magik is working close to her in Dr. Strange's academy.
    Yeh it would be a mess.
    Krakoa has always cared about dupes. Jean Grey's role on the space mission in HOX was to confirm the deaths of the team so they could be resurrected. Its mentioned in Xavier's data pages for that issue that a person can not be resurrected unless their death has been documented. Its also mentioned that eventually they would need to hav a task force to investigate this (which became X-factor). How would Wanda know? She would by talking to Xavier and its her failure to not contact him about her plans

    If she didn't feel guilty over M-Day she'd be a psychopath. She's mentally ill, and gone through various traumas in her life. And been possessed by cosmic entities and been manipulated by her family at her weakest point. But resurrecting those mutants restores mutant kind to millions, something Krakoa failed to accomplish. I don't see the point in blaming her because the writer made her fail. Failing things ins't what makes people wrong in itself, if that was true Krakoa failed Genosha already since they can't bring them all back.
    Wanda is not mentally ill. That may have flown during Disassembled and HOM but the Wanda we have today is perfectly sane and aware of her actions. You cant blame mental illness for what she did on Empyre. That get out of jail card expired a long time ago.

    Which, as I said, was bad writing.
    16 million people of a powerful races on Earth, with varied and strong abilities - which produced people like Storm and Franklin Richards, aren't helpless without Krakoa's support. They don't have to rebuild Genosha, all they have to survive and go elsewhere. Magneto's lived there by himself without powers.
    This Xavier's not into speaking to people unless he can get something out of them for his own agenda and best friends with Magneto, the same person who was crucial in creating the circumstances for M-day incident, as well as letting Genosha being vulnerable to Nova's attack. Not that Krakao's that hot with security itself. Villainous grandma's get in there without breaking a sweat.

    Genosha's population is a major priority as a whole to Krkaoa, they want those numbers absorbed into their own and feel entitled to those people. She as doing them a favor, unless they only want them resurrected by their own methods.

    In the past she was a written correctly, in Empyre she wasn't.
    Im going by the book. Wanda had no plan for the mutants beyond bringing them back. Where would 16 million mutants go? Genosha was uninhabitable right now. Immigration laws and policies exist and no country is just going to accept 16M incoming beings. Lets be real, it would be Krakoa's problem bc they are the only nation on Earth thats dedicated to mutants and their prosperity. As it stands, its population is in the thousands. It cant accomodate 16 million people tomorrow. Thats something it was planning to build up to over time

    Krakoa offers therapy to the resurrected mutants and thinks about their mentally well being as they decide who is brought back. They are able to do this bc they arent mass bringing people back by the millions. It a traumatic thing to die and come back. Wanda wasnt planning on offering any form of mental help. According to you she is mentally ill and not even equipped for that.


    Krakoa has no problems making the Queen of Limbo a Captain. She was a villain during Inferno.

    Illyana's not resurrecting anyone with unstable demonic magic. If you dont understand why thats a big deal, then i dont know what to tell you
    Last edited by Havok83; 09-15-2020 at 06:28 AM.

  14. #899
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    well I personally didnt notice much of a difrence betwen the two caps, fascist cap was like finding a fork in the kitchen.
    And wanda, like you said, is less important than house of M and its ramifications, it is what it is.
    Facist Cap is the one that conquered the US and blew up Las Vegas. Not that hard to tell the difference.

    As far as what Wanda did in house of m ... she was possessed. And in comics mind control, possession, etc always gets you a free pass. It's not necessarily overnight, but it works that way because it obviously has to. If every hero who did something under those sort of circumstances were held accountable for their actions, every hero on earth would be behind bars apart from Moon Girl. It's an occupational hazard. Most comic book writers and readers understand that... which is why most stories have Wanda moving on part it long ago. It's just the X books which want to millk it a little more... which obviously is their right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Im going by the book.
    The problem is that "by the book" depends on, well, the book. And Wanda doesn't get the benefit of the doubt that other characters get.

    So Hickman had Wanda try to resurrect mutants, fail miserably, and get lectured by Strange on what an idiot she was. As many people pointed out, Strange just recently had a whole story where he tried to resurrect a city full of dead people. Hickman didn't acknowledge that story and, frankly, there was no reason for him to do so; that's not the point of this story.

    But with Wanda people talk about her as if somehow she's a real person who screwed up, instead of a character who is written in wildly inconsistent ways.

    So the reason other characters have acted more responsibly than Wanda under Hickman is not anything inherent to Wanda's character, it's just that he chooses to write some characters well and some characters badly. Every character is written badly sometimes, it's just that people act like a few pages of Wanda behaving badly should define her character more than the decades of pages of her being the opposite.

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