Wanda's “unforgivable” crime?!

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The problem is that they had a hero (Wanda) do something terrible. That in and of itself isn't that remarkable as has been pointed out lots of others have done terrible things as well and recovered narratively. This is different from previous examples for a couple of reasons. First, it was the method used to abuse the hell out of the X-Men as a line. The consequences of HoM and the editorial mandate that caused it have continually bludgeoned the X-Books and mired it in a state of continual misery porn ever since. Second, Marvel flubbed her half assed redemption stories. CC is vague and wasn't followed up on at all, Uncanny Avengers is generally viewed unfavorably from the X-Fandom's perspective (For a lot of reasons' I'm not going to get into here) in fact her actions are generally viewed as a continuing negative rather than any kind of redemption.

This brings us to the present where a sizable portion of the fanbase (the X-Fans) dislike her. However, personally I'm encouraged by whats happened so far. Hickman is not the sort to leave dangeling plot threads and like it or not, it makes sense that she wouldn't be that popular with mutants in the MU. However, whatever else she is doing, even when failing as hilariously as she did in X-Men Empyre, she was sympathetic to X-fans, and that's something good. Hickman has stated that one of his overarching goals for the X-Line is to fix its status quo, to get it out of the misery-porn its been mired in since HoM. It only makes sense, to me at least, that part of that would be to actually have a solid redemption for Wanda. It won't be quick because good stories aren't (and Hickman is never quick), it will probably be rough for her because redemptions stories almost always are but I still think that its one of the goals.

My feelings exactly

[GenericUsername]

The problem is that they had a hero (Wanda) do something terrible. That in and of itself isn't that remarkable as has been pointed out lots of others have done terrible things as well and recovered narratively. This is different from previous examples for a couple of reasons. First, it was the method used to abuse the hell out of the X-Men as a line. The consequences of HoM and the editorial mandate that caused it have continually bludgeoned the X-Books and mired it in a state of continual misery porn ever since. Second, Marvel flubbed her half assed redemption stories. CC is vague and wasn't followed up on at all, Uncanny Avengers is generally viewed unfavorably from the X-Fandom's perspective (For a lot of reasons' I'm not going to get into here) in fact her actions are generally viewed as a continuing negative rather than any kind of redemption.

This brings us to the present where a sizable portion of the fanbase (the X-Fans) dislike her. However, personally I'm encouraged by whats happened so far. Hickman is not the sort to leave dangeling plot threads and like it or not, it makes sense that she wouldn't be that popular with mutants in the MU. However, whatever else she is doing, even when failing as hilariously as she did in X-Men Empyre, she was sympathetic to X-fans, and that's something good. Hickman has stated that one of his overarching goals for the X-Line is to fix its status quo, to get it out of the misery-porn its been mired in since HoM. It only makes sense, to me at least, that part of that would be to actually have a solid redemption for Wanda. It won't be quick because good stories aren't (and Hickman is never quick), it will probably be rough for her because redemptions stories almost always are but I still think that its one of the goals.

It fueled so many storylines that were at least told in the X-Men's narrative. They still come out on top from a storytelling perspective. It might not feel like it because bad things happened, but their characterization overall was cared for. They just went through something terrible. I'm not against Wanda going through terrible things. What I am against is her constantly being made the plot device, the conduit to everyone else's tales. Not even her own. So that they can have the journey of hardship and then rising from that. She didn't really. She caused what happened, she never even got the real redemption. Nor did they care about her character. She was suddenly whatever was needed for all this to happen. To the Avengers, to the X-Men and she got thrown away for 7 years. Then again for 6 months.

[GenericUsername]

Personally I didn't think they needed possession from the Life Force either. I think her being mentally ill was an okay enough free pass in my book... though I suppose from a certain perspective possession makes it a bit easier.

It wasn't because previous canon had not established a mental illness. And it just fed into the mentally ill are the villains trope. If they had built this up from Darker than Scarlet, it could have been plausible. But what really played out through the course of comics, was that she had a breakdown over her husband and her kids being taken from her (that would shake anyone). Then worked through it, was fine for 15 years. Even remembered her kids were a thing. Then suddenly she doesn't remember her kids and is totally unstable. Enough to want to murder a bunch of Avengers that she never even had a cross word with. Other than maybe Vision. But even they had resolved past things. Chthon works fine. He has a history of possessing her and causing chaos. It was far better established in her history.

[GenericUsername]

The question is just: is it a plausible behaviour for a character? If it is, forgiveness is on the injured party.

I have no problem with Wanda having a mental breakdown and utter “No more mutants”… She doesn’t need to be possessed, it’s not like she is a bad person. Everyone is able to do terrible things when they are pushed to their limits. It doesn’t mean that it is a good thing, just that is plausible.

No that sets a bad example. Saying that mental breakdowns could cause someone to commit genocide is extreme and very untrue. Not to mention a dangerous stereotype. Possession wouldn't make her a bad person. Genocide definitely makes someone a bad person. And again she didn't have an established history, this is just something they tried to tack on her. Not to mention the tastelessness of having a Roma character commit genocide. Whomever let that through needs to think about what they depicted.

[XPac]

I forgot where it was from but I remember in an interview Rosenberg said he was just following Hickman's orders to make the X-men setting as miserable as possible so when Hickman did House of X it would be in a better light, as a contrast. So if anyone has a problem with X-men being endless misery Hickan gets some responsibility for that status quo.

If this is what "light" is to Hickman, I'm almost scared to see what things will look like when he inevitably starts turning things darker.

[Relugus]

For what 2 issues and then was brought bak within the same book? It wasnt a sacrifice and she didnt fix her mess. What Remender did wasnt a redemption story. He actually wrote her kind of smug and arrogant about it so killing her didnt really do anything to absolve her of her past sins. There was nothing heroic about how she was handled

And yes people will still hate her and its bc Marvel took too long to fix this. Redemption now though isnt about making people not hate her but rather making her a viable character again and Marvel has been fumbling that for years

Wanda has been in the MCU for 5 years, the optimal time, obviously, with the benefits of pop culture prominence, when there is the motive to make her a viable character, is this MCU period, but there has been none. The effort has, aside from Robinson and Zub, been totally non-existent. There is zero interest from writers.
There has been a clear editorial decision to focus on more "modern" and "feminist" female characters, such as Carol Danvers, Kamala Khan, Storm, X-23, Magik, America Chavez, who, by the way, would never be allowed by the likes of Sana Amanat to be depicted in the way Wanda was in X-Men Empyre. The intent now seems to be to make her into the female Hank Pym.

[MaximoffTrash]

The best way to have redeemed Wanda would have been to kill her in AvX. She should have sacrificed herself to stop Dark Phoenix and completely reverse her spell (that meant repowering all mutants). 3-4 years gone from the books and then they could plan her big return, probably using Secret Wars as a means for that. I think they took too long and now most people dont care about her being redeemed outside of her die-hard fans. I dont know what she can even do to redeem herself as M-Day has largely been dealt with and reversed in the X-books for all significant characters affected and they have an in universe plot device to deal with the unnamed characters. Wanda's really not needed anymore to clean up the mess that was made

I mean, she just returned from her 7 years of absence from comics when TCC/AVX happened, I doubt Wanda fans would take it well and not think it's just blatantly pandering to X-fans's obssessions.
And really, it's 7 fucking years, it's her die-hard fans who don't give a flying fuck how she is perceived in the eyes of X-books/office/fans anymore.

[MaximoffTrash]

The question is just: is it a plausible behaviour for a character? If it is, forgiveness is on the injured party.

I have no problem with Wanda having a mental breakdown and utter “No more mutants”… She doesn’t need to be possessed, it’s not like she is a bad person. Everyone is able to do terrible things when they are pushed to their limits. It doesn’t mean that it is a good thing, just that is plausible.

Oh, I do agree she could have a mental breakdown and say stuff, the thing is her total breakdown is built upon piles upon piles of BS and continuity butchering that I'd rather throw out of the window than acknowledging.

[MaximoffTrash]

The problem is that they had a hero (Wanda) do something terrible. That in and of itself isn't that remarkable as has been pointed out lots of others have done terrible things as well and recovered narratively. This is different from previous examples for a couple of reasons. First, it was the method used to abuse the hell out of the X-Men as a line. The consequences of HoM and the editorial mandate that caused it have continually bludgeoned the X-Books and mired it in a state of continual misery porn ever since. Second, Marvel flubbed her half assed redemption stories. CC is vague and wasn't followed up on at all, Uncanny Avengers is generally viewed unfavorably from the X-Fandom's perspective (For a lot of reasons' I'm not going to get into here) in fact her actions are generally viewed as a continuing negative rather than any kind of redemption.

This brings us to the present where a sizable portion of the fanbase (the X-Fans) dislike her. However, personally I'm encouraged by whats happened so far. Hickman is not the sort to leave dangeling plot threads and like it or not, it makes sense that she wouldn't be that popular with mutants in the MU. However, whatever else she is doing, even when failing as hilariously as she did in X-Men Empyre, she was sympathetic to X-fans, and that's something good. Hickman has stated that one of his overarching goals for the X-Line is to fix its status quo, to get it out of the misery-porn its been mired in since HoM. It only makes sense, to me at least, that part of that would be to actually have a solid redemption for Wanda. It won't be quick because good stories aren't (and Hickman is never quick), it will probably be rough for her because redemptions stories almost always are but I still think that its one of the goals.

Well, I don't, I honestly don't think X-fans slightly more sympathetic to her is essential to her survival or anything. She needs to be recognized and liked by new Avengers readers.
I just hope Hickman do it quick and be done with it, I have no interest in seeing Wanda in an X-story what so ever, but hey if X-fans do warm up to her somehow(at the expense of her being depicted as incompetent or even dumb). Hey at least we don't pay for nothing, even if it's an unfair trade off.

[Relugus]

It wasn't because previous canon had not established a mental illness. And it just fed into the mentally ill are the villains trope. If they had built this up from Darker than Scarlet, it could have been plausible. But what really played out through the course of comics, was that she had a breakdown over her husband and her kids being taken from her (that would shake anyone). Then worked through it, was fine for 15 years. Even remembered her kids were a thing. Then suddenly she doesn't remember her kids and is totally unstable. Enough to want to murder a bunch of Avengers that she never even had a cross word with. Other than maybe Vision. But even they had resolved past things. Chthon works fine. He has a history of possessing her and causing chaos. It was far better established in her history.

In fact, Ian McNee even points to Chthon and Set as chief suspects in Marvel Tarot

[gurkle]

Wanda has been in the MCU for 5 years, the optimal time, obviously, with the benefits of pop culture prominence, when there is the motive to make her a viable character, is this MCU period, but there has been none. The effort has, aside from Robinson and Zub, been totally non-existent. There is zero interest from writers.
There has been a clear editorial decision to focus on more "modern" and "feminist" female characters, such as Carol Danvers, Kamala Khan, Storm, X-23, Magik, America Chavez, who, by the way, would never be allowed by the likes of Sana Amanat to be depicted in the way Wanda was in X-Men Empyre. The intent now seems to be to make her into the female Hank Pym.

To be fair, Wanda's portrayal by Kelly Thompson in "Star" (a Captain Marvel spinoff) was fine. I don't think writers hate her, I think they either don't know much about her because of her long absence from comics during Marvel's most pivotal modern period, or she's being saved for some X-Men storyline - which, given X-Men Empyre and the way Cebulski has given most of the company's resources over to the X-line*, seems increasingly likely.

The MCU connection doesn't help a lot of characters, not just her. In some ways it may hurt because they usually change the character to fit the MCU version, but she has had such small MCU roles until now that there's almost nothing to rip off. Same goes for other minor characters who are getting their turn in the spotlight soon.

*Yes, turnabout is fair play after years when the X-line was being deliberately starved of resources by management.

[MaximoffTrash]

In fact, Ian McNee even points to Chthon and Set as chief suspects in Marvel Tarot

Ahhh I miss Mystic Arcana and Marvel Tarot, and Ian is one of my favorite obscure character. Shame Marvel didn't use him more, he'd be a great narrator type of character. A bystander who record stuff.

[Ferro]

It's different because House of M is different in terms of being a bad story that wrecked the continuity making it simply impossible for the X-Line to ignore and sweep away.

so ignore 7 years of stories, 3 big events and the reason why we have certain characters like hope summers, magik back from the ded etc.
Do you want hundreds of titles with dozens of characters to be ignored because you want your favorite character to be "better"? you do understand no x-men writer would abide to that, to refuse to aproach and deal with that continuity for a character so insignificant not even the mcu's counterpart popularity can assure a place in a book.

Im sorry but wanda is categorically tied to HoM its the most relevant story she has ever been in, the entire x-men line is more important than wanda so dont expect anyone to save her from a good x-men story for x-men fans, it's just how the cookie crumbles

[Ferro]

I forgot where it was from but I remember in an interview Rosenberg said he was just following Hickman's orders to make the X-men setting as miserable as possible so when Hickman did House of X it would be in a better light, as a contrast. So if anyone has a problem with X-men being endless misery Hickan gets some responsibility for that status quo.

what bro??????? the poster was talking about the period betwen decimation and avx and further extinction stories like inhumans vs x-men, hickman giviing rosenberg notes isnt comparable to the near decade after the decimation that were caused by wanda's character.

whats the coorelation betwen a convo about the decimation and how it created an era and resentment betwen x-fans and the rest of marvel to 2019 uncanny x-men (not even the full the vol but the second half)?

[CJStriker]

The problem is that they had a hero (Wanda) do something terrible. That in and of itself isn't that remarkable as has been pointed out lots of others have done terrible things as well and recovered narratively. This is different from previous examples for a couple of reasons. First, it was the method used to abuse the hell out of the X-Men as a line. The consequences of HoM and the editorial mandate that caused it have continually bludgeoned the X-Books and mired it in a state of continual misery porn ever since. Second, Marvel flubbed her half assed redemption stories. CC is vague and wasn't followed up on at all, Uncanny Avengers is generally viewed unfavorably from the X-Fandom's perspective (For a lot of reasons' I'm not going to get into here) in fact her actions are generally viewed as a continuing negative rather than any kind of redemption.

This brings us to the present where a sizable portion of the fanbase (the X-Fans) dislike her. However, personally I'm encouraged by whats happened so far. Hickman is not the sort to leave dangeling plot threads and like it or not, it makes sense that she wouldn't be that popular with mutants in the MU. However, whatever else she is doing, even when failing as hilariously as she did in X-Men Empyre, she was sympathetic to X-fans, and that's something good. Hickman has stated that one of his overarching goals for the X-Line is to fix its status quo, to get it out of the misery-porn its been mired in since HoM. It only makes sense, to me at least, that part of that would be to actually have a solid redemption for Wanda. It won't be quick because good stories aren't (and Hickman is never quick), it will probably be rough for her because redemptions stories almost always are but I still think that its one of the goals.

Ahhh and That is indeed some important points to discuss over Kisinith.

The Main legacy that Children’s Crusade is was to re-establish Wanda into the hero community and for her fans. To fix the character assassination that was done to her legacy in Dissembles and say NO she was always a good person and the hero you always knew, just she like so many other heroes was made to do things out of her control and will, Similar to Hal Jordan or Jean Grey. That is what was needed and we got out off that story the most.

As for the most important point you made, since Hickman decided to pull this trigger for this story I don’t have a problem with heroes of mine going threw rough and difficult stories at all or taking a bit of time to do so. I support and want story to be fruitful and compelling now since it seems that might be the road that might happen, so long as Hickman shows he is willing to leave both Wanda and Mutants in a better place then when he started with them then that can be welcomed. I don’t want a fast story or quick fixes cause to much is sped threw these days and we need to give storytellers the time to their vision and not to want quick satisfaction.

But my final point is also very important and it is what X-Men Empyre showed to fans that at the time where not Fans of Wanda but in their view they finally got something that they have wanted. That is being shown as sympathetic and wanted to do right to mutants even if it does not work full yet, she is trying and that did Warm My heart to see in this book not only cause that is the character of Wanda I have always known, seen do and Love but it started the ball rolling for fans to like Wanda more and be sympathetic towards her more and that is a good thing that warmed my heart to read.

While their where things In the story I was not perfectly pleased about (Strange’s character being the main one), I was still pleased and warmed to she Wanda doing what she could to make things right and to maybe hope to this is the direction Hickman is going in, a positive one that will positively benefit both Wanda and Mutants, we can only hope if he does continue this that that is his road Taken if this continues.