Wanda's “unforgivable” crime?!

[Havok83]

Yes. If he hadn't written in that thing with Wanda resurrecting mutant zombies, no one would have paid any attention to the X-Men Empyre tie-in mini, which is most likely why he wrote her in. Hickman and his editors must know that whenever Wanda and Decimation are brought up, message boards like these explode in arguments. So they'll keep milking it for as long as possible.

I dont think thats why he did it. Its obvious that this was setup for something bigger as Wanda doesnt get closure at the end. Its hinted that she's gonna do something else which Im sure Hickman will pick up in his X-men book or some other event

[XPac]

I dont think thats why he did it. Its obvious that this was setup for something bigger as Wanda doesnt get closure at the end. Its hinted that she's gonna do something else which Im sure Hickman will pick up in his X-men book or some other event

Given Wanda Vision is on the horizen, there probably some sort of Wanda story in the works. Gotta have that synergy.

[Iron Maiden]

I still don't see why people keep wanting to drag Doom as the one who wanted to have all the mutants depowered into this. House of M provides the motivation for Wanda, who was being pressured by Pietro. For better or worse, it was intended all along to be Wanda's story. Even Wanda didn't use Doom's "confession" in CC as an excuse. This is not to say that I agree with how Bendis's characterization

[Iron Maiden]

I too disagree with the whole lets just pretend it never happened mindset of some Wanda fans. It's a crucial moment for both Wanda and the entirety of 616 you can't just ignore it has to be addressed. I also think insanity is such a bad cop-out for Wanda cause again you don't just stop being insane sis had all her faculties in check in CC so I don't buy it. Also being insane doesn't negate the impact of your actions, Joker is insane doesn't mean all that millions of murders he's committed are knull and void.

I think it's pretty obvious that it was more of a case of possession by a powerful entity.

[gurkle]

I still don't see why people keep wanting to drag Doom as the one wanted to have all the mutants depowered into this. House of M provides the motivation for Wanda, who was being pressured by Pietro. For better or worse, it was intended all along to be Wanda's story. Even Wanda didn't use Doom's "confession" in CC as an excuse. This is not to say that I agree with how Bendis's characterization

I appreciate and agree that this doesn't seem like something Doom would do. My point is just that Doom is the only alternative explanation we've gotten on panel, and it makes more sense to Wanda's fans that Doom would do something so evil than that Wanda would. The idea that Wanda, after 40 years of being a hero, would suddenly erase mutants from existence to get back at her father is just completely unacceptable to anyone who liked the character before that story.

I would prefer if Marvel provided a real alternative explanation showing definitively that Wanda didn't do it and that someone else did - probably Chthon, given that he's possessed her before. But they're not going to do that because they like the ambiguity. So if it's a choice between "Wanda did it" and "Doom did it" I'll just have to take "Doom did it," because it makes slightly more sense and ruins the character slightly less. I don't expect a Doom fan to go along with it though.

[XPac]

I appreciate and agree that this doesn't seem like something Doom would do. My point is just that Doom is the only alternative explanation we've gotten on panel, and it makes more sense to Wanda's fans that Doom would do something so evil than that Wanda would. The idea that Wanda, after 40 years of being a hero, would suddenly erase mutants from existence to get back at her father is just completely unacceptable to anyone who liked the character before that story.

I would prefer if Marvel provided a real alternative explanation showing definitively that Wanda didn't do it and that someone else did - probably Chthon, given that he's possessed her before. But they're not going to do that because they like the ambiguity. So if it's a choice between "Wanda did it" and "Doom did it" I'll just have to take "Doom did it," because it makes slightly more sense and ruins the character slightly less. I don't expect a Doom fan to go along with it though.

Again, we have the alterative right there in Children's Cruasade ... she was possessed by the Life Force. It's a BORING alternative given we haven't seen it before or since... but it's still canon at least until someone retcons it again.

[Havok83]

Too bad she was incapacitated at the time, but Cassandra Nova using Wanda would have been a perfect twist and would make more sense for why she'd want to take out mutantkind

[EMPulse]

I don't believe that Doom had anything to do with what happened to Wanda around Disassembled. From what I read of her in Avengers and West Coast, she thought she was a mutant. Something in her that caused people to hurt her and her family. It was always an excuse to treat her like she's not "normal." Even though she was a veteran member, she's the "mutant avenger."
If that wasn't enough, writers decided she needed to have PTSD. Let's take away her husband and kids. The normalcy she's been struggling for all her young life, then we can have A B and C ramifications. There were multiple stories where they keep making Wanda get possessed and evil, each time though Marvel said More!
House of M to me was a good transition to where Wanda's mindset is at that time. I believe she just felt lost, alone and angry at her mutant genes being a cause of so much heartache and pain. I believe she meant to not want to be a mutant herself so she said those famous words.
Now is that unforgivable? Yes. What she did was not reversed everything back to status quo, immediately. Yes, eventually mutants got their powers back, but for story purposes at that time, she killed mutants.

[Iron Maiden]

I appreciate and agree that this doesn't seem like something Doom would do. My point is just that Doom is the only alternative explanation we've gotten on panel, and it makes more sense to Wanda's fans that Doom would do something so evil than that Wanda would. The idea that Wanda, after 40 years of being a hero, would suddenly erase mutants from existence to get back at her father is just completely unacceptable to anyone who liked the character before that story.

I would prefer if Marvel provided a real alternative explanation showing definitively that Wanda didn't do it and that someone else did - probably Chthon, given that he's possessed her before. But they're not going to do that because they like the ambiguity. So if it's a choice between "Wanda did it" and "Doom did it" I'll just have to take "Doom did it," because it makes slightly more sense and ruins the character slightly less. I don't expect a Doom fan to go along with it though.

IMO it would be too soon after "Unthinkable" for him to be involved. He was off the table for writers for quite a while after that. Two (three if you count House of M) major events happened before he escapes from Hell in FF #537; Disassembled and Civil War had begun. Also Unthinkable was such a dark storyline that I don't think Marvel would want to see him culpable for that and for the mass death of mutants . Doom is arguably Marvel's go to villain but when you look at the "notches on his belt" it's not on the same level as say Magneto who wiped out a crew of 200 on a Russian submarine as a show of force. Right now in the Doctor Doom solo he's trying to clear his name of the Antlion disaster on the Moon that killed a couple of thousand. But with House of M, I can't think of an event, etc where he was responsible for this many deaths. And writers just love to use Doom. Two Hollywood pros, JMS and now Chris Cantwell have expressed their fandom of the character.

Characters are alike an asset to the editors & writers. Wanda was essentially removed from comics for quite a few years. House of M took place in 2004 or 2005 and other than those mysterious encounters with Hawkeye and the Beast she doesn't fully return to Marvel publications until 2011-2012. I doubt that Marvel would keep Doom off limits for that long, and I'm not even sure that Wanda was given an official time out by editorial or they were waiting to have Bendis do a follow up. We just don't know for sure. But I think if Doom had been responsible, the character would not have been allowed to evolve as much as he has been over the years to the point where it's not so unusual to see him teamed up with Doctor Strange or Iron Man. And Marvel has never been shy about giving Doom his own series. The current one got an Eisner nomination after all.

[gurkle]

I think you're right that Marvel would never have Doom, despite being a villain, do such a horrible thing as wipe out mutants. Because he's a priority character for them, and Wanda is not. Even Magneto had to be retconned out of the crimes he committed under Morrison, because he's more of a priority character than Wanda as well.

It doesn't change, though, that wiping out mutants is something Doom would plausibly try to do if he thought it would help him, while it's not something a hero like Wanda could ever do and remain a hero. All the continuity problems with saying Doom did it are nothing compared to the big problem with Wanda wiping out mutants: she would never do that, because she is a hero, and House of M made no attempt to explain why she had suddenly become bad.

I'm not asking you to accept that "Doom did it," the point is that none of us would accept that our favorite character did something like that.

House of M told us that Wanda had become, with no buildup or explanation, an omnipotent crazy self-hating mutant who wiped out a race to get back at daddy for not loving her enough. There's no reason a fan of the character should accept this; Decimation happened, but she couldn't have done it. Hopefully someday Marvel will provide an explanation that's better than "Doom did it" - like maybe explaining what exactly the "Life Force" was - but it's clear that they never will.

[Tony Stark]

Didn’t Wonder Man and Wanda say she was manipulated by Doom?! Does that mean it was both of them that did it?! Just asking.

[whitecrown]

The fact that this is even a thread is disgusting and I blame all the hatred on Hickman for perpetuating this myth and not allowing the X-Fans to get over it with constant reminders of Wanda's supposed crime.

[Iron Maiden]

Didn’t Wonder Man and Wanda say she was manipulated by Doom?! Does that mean it was both of them that did it?! Just asking.

I don't recall Wonder Man having a say in it but when Magneto and Pietro were all for blaming Doom and accepting his "confession", Wanda knew better and rejected the idea. Here she is admitting that the Life Force corrupted her as she warns Doom about it. Wanda and Doom were summoning the Life Force again with Wiccan as the "safety valve" but Eli messed things up and took a shot at Doom but hit Wanda instead, causing Doom to either take the power so deliberately or he unintentionally got hit with the ricochet of it. Doom does say he will restore the mutants but it will of course require every one to bend a knee to him. Then the fighting starts and Cassie gets killed. Now that is one that is on Doom. She attacked when she thought that Doom had killed her father but he had gone down to ant size and was safe. When she attacked Doom struck back with the enhanced power of the Life Force and she was killed. Later on, Doom gets his comeuppance in Fractions FF and gets a drubbing by a temporarily powered up Scott Lang. Then further on, Doom siphons some power from Wanda during Axis and he brings Cassie back to life. So in that case, yeah Doom is responsible for Cassie's death in CC but he later balances the scales by bringing her back to life.

[XPac]

I think you're right that Marvel would never have Doom, despite being a villain, do such a horrible thing as wipe out mutants. Because he's a priority character for them, and Wanda is not. Even Magneto had to be retconned out of the crimes he committed under Morrison, because he's more of a priority character than Wanda as well.

It doesn't change, though, that wiping out mutants is something Doom would plausibly try to do if he thought it would help him, while it's not something a hero like Wanda could ever do and remain a hero. All the continuity problems with saying Doom did it are nothing compared to the big problem with Wanda wiping out mutants: she would never do that, because she is a hero, and House of M made no attempt to explain why she had suddenly become bad.

I'm not asking you to accept that "Doom did it," the point is that none of us would accept that our favorite character did something like that.

House of M told us that Wanda had become, with no buildup or explanation, an omnipotent crazy self-hating mutant who wiped out a race to get back at daddy for not loving her enough. There's no reason a fan of the character should accept this; Decimation happened, but she couldn't have done it. Hopefully someday Marvel will provide an explanation that's better than "Doom did it" - like maybe explaining what exactly the "Life Force" was - but it's clear that they never will.

Maybe there's no point in explaining it further. Childrens Cruasade gave an explanation which people for the most part ignore. It may not have been a good explanation... but it was an explanantion nonetheless. She was possessed by the Life Force.

If people are just going to ignore that because they prefer blaming Wanda, then a second explanation won't accomplish anything the first explanation didn't.

[Iron Maiden]

Yeah, this thread is a micro example of the same arguments that have been going on ever since. I agree that Children's Crusade isn't perfect but then I put a lot of the blame on Bendis. He never cleaned up his mess. I am less inclined to put any blame on Heinberg. His editor Tom Brevoort approved of the story. IMO this was an enjoyable read even though it is a controversial story.

Oh, Heinberg is another example of another Hollywood writer who just wanted to throw Doom in the story, whether he belonged there or not