Wanda's “unforgivable” crime?!

[BitParallel]

I have enjoyed most of HickmanÂ’s work except for his current X-Men run. I liked HoX and PoX but the on going x-books have been so boring imo. However, this isnÂ’t a rant about Hickmans X-books. This is more about the recent issue where not only was Dr Strange out of character but the Wanda hate too.

Hickmans Wanda hate is so ancient, he is referencing a „crime“that took place over a decade ago. Can we MOVE ON? not only that but wasn’t it „fixed“ and „addressed“ a long time ago? Did Hickman do his homework? I think not.

Another issue; the Wanda hate is so random and kinda hypocritical. He has notorious X-Villains roaming around Krakoa, cracking a cold one with the „heroes“ but god forbid they move past Wanda‘s mental breakdown.

As an Iron Man Fan, there is nothing worse than having writers constantly referencing one event where your favourite character was portrayed in a negative/villainous way. It sucks and to have your favourite be the Butt Monkey for the writers, it can kill your love for comics.

What are your guys thoughts?

[Zelena]

For me, whatever Hickman (and his acolytes) can say — and write — don’t matter much: the characters that were written in a compelling, in-depth way a long time ago have marked me, they are the ones who are important to me. If an author doesn’t bother to write a character with the good characterization, it is fanfiction. There are fanfictions I like and fanfictions I don’t like.

I’m just puzzled by any kind of “hate” towards a character, it is so strange to me.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Hickmans Wanda hate is so ancient, he is referencing a „crime“that took place over a decade ago. Can we MOVE ON? not only that but wasn’t it „fixed“ and „addressed“ a long time ago?

Firstly, in the fiction of the Marvel Universe, it's not been "ten years". Per comic book time, only 14 years passed since the FF flew that rocket. For the mutants, it's been 10 years since Professor Xavier first met Moira MacTaggert. SO the entire period of X-Men (the Claremont years, the Morrison years, the Whedon years, the Post-HoM years...all that happened in a very short period of time...if you find that hard to fathom, welcome to comics).

So Wanda's actions in House of M is pretty recent memory for mutants.

Secondly, Wanda's actions is tantamount to mass sterilization and amount to a kind of genocide. There's no statute of limitations on that in real life. I mean there are many stories of war criminals and others slipping into civilian life only to be revealed and exposed to his neighbors that they did terrible stuff in a war. So it happening 10 years ago is no excuse.

Thirdly, look Hank Pym is never gonna be a hero again for what he did to Janet, and he still gets a lot of grief and is called out multiple times for creating Ultron, a genocidal robot. So if he doesn't get a pass, I don't see how Scarlet Witch qualifies.

Fourthly, it wasn't addressed. The Children's Crusade feinted where they tried to make Doom responsible but the same story had Wolverine at the end say that Doom is fibbing in an effort to help Wanda and it wasn't explicit and nobody at Marvel is comfortable making Doom responsible for the mass culling of mutants.

At least, Hickman is allowing for the possibility of redemption...and indeed it is far more possible for Wanda to find a great good to counter the action of harm she did...then it is for Hank Pym to undo all the stuff he did.

Another issue; the Wanda hate is so random and kinda hypocritical. He has notorious X-Villains roaming around Krakoa, cracking a cold one with the „heroes“ but god forbid they move past Wanda‘s mental breakdown.

From the perspective of the mutants, it's Wanda Maximoff who did the most harm to them in 616 Marvel. She was the one who took over their powers all out of a sense of resentment and frustration at the person she thought was her father. I mean going "no more mutants" wasn't justifiable in any sense.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Firstly, in the fiction of the Marvel Universe, it's not been "ten years". Per comic book time, only 14 years passed since the FF flew that rocket. For the mutants, it's been 10 years since Professor Xavier first met Moira MacTaggert. SO the entire period of X-Men (the Claremont years, the Morrison years, the Whedon years, the Post-HoM years...all that happened in a very short period of time...if you find that hard to fathom, welcome to comics).

So Wanda's actions in House of M is pretty recent memory for mutants.

Secondly, Wanda's actions is tantamount to mass sterilization and amount to a kind of genocide. There's no statute of limitations on that in real life. I mean there are many stories of war criminals and others slipping into civilian life only to be revealed and exposed to his neighbors that they did terrible stuff in a war. So it happening 10 years ago is no excuse.

So did Sinister. Many, many mutants in krkaoa have done crimes like that, on the small and large scale. And unlike Wanda they're proud of it. They did these crimes to their own mutant brothers and sisters, too. Age of Apocalypse was 616 canon temporarily, and Apocalypse has spent his entire life trying to create that and in many futures he succeeded. But all the lives they've ruined is waved away. Wanda's also had extenuating circumstances and unlike others it's haunted her for years, can't say the same for the Phoenix Five with the latter. The Phoenix Five didn't pay for their crimes, didn't even get trial. Now, nobody cares what they did.

Thirdly, look Hank Pym is never gonna be a hero again for what he did to Janet, and he still gets a lot of grief and is called out multiple times for creating Ultron, a genocidal robot. So if he doesn't get a pass, I don't see how Scarlet Witch qualifies.

Hank remains hero after all that, numerous writers try to rehabilitate him and try to make him not look evil or stupid. He didn't create Ultron to be evil, it's a Mile Dyson situation with Skynet. Ultron was evil on its own, that's why that technology is constantly origins for murderous robots in fiction. Their inventors don't know it's a Pandora's box until it's too late.

Fourthly, it wasn't addressed. The Children's Crusade feinted where they tried to make Doom responsible but the same story had Wolverine at the end say that Doom is fibbing in an effort to help Wanda and it wasn't explicit and nobody at Marvel is comfortable making Doom responsible for the mass culling of mutants.

That shouldn't be the end of it, though. Wolverine doesn't spoeak for all mutant kind, Doom should be a huge priority to take down after Krakao was made for that. But he's not. And it's not like anyone researched further, despite the fact Krkaao has all they need to do this. It's kind of strange for them to not care about this when it's about M-Day. They'll try to kill Wanda over it but with Doom they want to forget? No.

At least, Hickman is allowing for the possibility of redemption...and indeed it is far more possible for Wanda to find a great good to counter the action of harm she did...then it is for Hank Pym to undo all the stuff he did.

Hickman wrote her like a boiler plate villain in his Avengers, despite the fact Doom tried to steal her powers for his own shady agenda. Empyre didn't help.

From the perspective of the mutants, it's Wanda Maximoff who did the most harm to them in 616 Marvel. She was the one who took over their powers all out of a sense of resentment and frustration at the person she thought was her father. I mean going "no more mutants" wasn't justifiable in any sense.

Except not every mutant should feel like this, especially those who know her. She's not a stranger to that community. There are numerous people who have done incredible harm to mutants in 616, many of which are in Krakao. Neither was killing millions or trying to kill billions to blackmail the United Nations for political power, two people who did this are on the Quiet Council and have been the face of Krakoa to the world. Wanda's shown more remorse for her act than they ever did over the years. It's not like Apocalypse or Magneto are spending time trying to resurrect victims and Wanda's trying to help mutants who weren't effected by M-Day. Mutants who have been absent from Krkaoa itself, when they should be a big faction making noise politically on krkaoa or elsewhere.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So did Sinister.

This thread is about Wanda, my dude, not Sinister. This is a forum and not a court of law but the principle's the same. The one's in the docket is on the trial and has to be prosecuted and defended based on what they do. The X-Men's sketchy alliances on Krakoa is discussed and commented on separately but by itself that wouldn't negate or counter the accusations against Wanda.

The Nuremberg trials and the charges against Nazi war criminals aren't undone because the people bringing the charges are Jim Crow and Segregated USA, Stalinist USSR, and the British Empire on its last legs. I am not saying Wanda is morally the same as Nazism but her actions are of large scale and grave consequences and the Nazis did practice and tried to implement mass sterilization.

Hank remains hero after all that, numerous writers try to rehabilitate him and try to make him not look evil or stupid.

And as Doctor Strange told Wanda, Hank has never been able to do a great good to undo the harm he has done. None of the redemptive Hank moments are as big as the scenes where he slapped Janet. The most important thing Hank did was create Ultron and that resulted in the destruction of Slorenia and the slaughter of every man, woman and child in that nation.

He didn't create Ultron to be evil,

Fact is, he did it. Someone with his undiagnosed mental issues had no business using his intellect to create AI...when a very unstable genius plays with toys, is it a surprise that the toy turns out to be a murderbot. He learned it from watching you, Dad.

Except not every mutant should feel like this, especially those who know her. She's not a stranger to that community.

Except she is. She's not a mutant anymore, Magneto's not her Dad. And even then most of her history is tied to the Avengers far more than X-Men and brotherhood.

My view is what it has always been: House of M is a story that Wanda barely appears in, it gets everything wrong about her character and history, and it ends with her doing something that should disqualify her from being a hero ever again if we take it seriously.

Agreed.

The idea that this must be addressed, instead of retconned or dismissed, is just that the moment had a lot of impact on the X-Men books going forward, and there's this idea that she must be punished for things that happened in books she didn't appear in, based on a story that mis-characterized her as an omnipotent self-hating mutant.

I don't know why this is a surprise for some posters. But it's not simply that a story is bad. It becomes worse if it's tied to continuity and publication stuff. It's why OMD is this elephant in the room for Spider-Man. House-of-M is like OMD. For X-Men fans it marked the point where Marvel officially tried to kneecap it away from the spotlight in favor of the Avengers. X-Men editors like Jordan White and others have all admitted that the X-Men continuity has been in a low-end since HoM.

So this isn't a bad story that can be simply swept under the rug. It needs to be addressed.

[gurkle]

I don't know why this is a surprise for some posters. But it's not simply that a story is bad. It becomes worse if it's tied to continuity and publication stuff. It's why OMD is this elephant in the room for Spider-Man. House-of-M is like OMD. For X-Men fans it marked the point where Marvel officially tried to kneecap it away from the spotlight in favor of the Avengers. X-Men editors like Jordan White and others have all admitted that the X-Men continuity has been in a low-end since HoM.

So this isn't a bad story that can be simply swept under the rug. It needs to be addressed.

But, I mean, OMD was swept under the rug. The comic went on, often selling very well, so most comic-buyers and most writers didn't see Spider-Man as the kind of guy who would sell his marriage to the devil. Some readers feel that the story shattered their interest in Spider-Man, and I can definitely understand feeling that way, but writers don't feel like they have to keep bringing it up all the time.

But Spider-Man is a major flagship character, so he's protected from the worst things the writers make him do. Wanda rarely appears unless someone is dredging up House of M. But I don't honestly think "Doom did it or whatever, let's move on" would be that much different from "His marriage never happened because he sold it to Satan, whatever, let's move on."

[Revolutionary_Jack]

But, I mean, OMD was swept under the rug.

No it wasn't.

The comic went on, often selling very well, so most comic-buyers and most writers didn't see Spider-Man as the kind of guy who would sell his marriage to the devil. Some readers feel that the story shattered their interest in Spider-Man, and I can definitely understand feeling that way, but writers don't feel like they have to keep bringing it up all the time.

Except OMD is brought up all the time in many Spider-Man stories and storylines. Spider-Man/Deadpool addressed it constantly and many writers in the main continuity kept addressing it and the current Spider-Man run also addresses it.

A lot of Spider-Man stories since OMD is OMD-baiting in promotion or easter eggs. It's not by any means a story that was swept under the rug.

It's the most important Spider-Man story in the 616 continuity in the last 20 years and no story after it has matched it.

Wanda rarely appears unless someone is dredging up House of M. But I don't honestly think "Doom did it or whatever, let's move on" would be that much different from "His marriage never happened because he sold it to Satan, whatever, let's move on."

Except Doom's not some generic villain. He's a major and popular character and him being tied to the X-Men corner weakens both titles especially for the sake of a character who as you say was minor otherwise.

House of M is the biggest story Scarlet Witch was ever part of and the most consequential action she did in the publication history. So it can't leave her.

[Iron Maiden]

But, I mean, OMD was swept under the rug. The comic went on, often selling very well, so most comic-buyers and most writers didn't see Spider-Man as the kind of guy who would sell his marriage to the devil. Some readers feel that the story shattered their interest in Spider-Man, and I can definitely understand feeling that way, but writers don't feel like they have to keep bringing it up all the time.

But Spider-Man is a major flagship character, so he's protected from the worst things the writers make him do. Wanda rarely appears unless someone is dredging up House of M. But I don't honestly think "Doom did it or whatever, let's move on" would be that much different from "His marriage never happened because he sold it to Satan, whatever, let's move on."

I'm surprised that Spider-Man is forgiven for some of the same things others never were able to survive. He slapped Mary Jane but wasn't as branded by that action as Hank was. Even the writer of the Avengers story Jim Shooter said that the slap was not his intention for that scene and the artist overplayed it. It all mushroomed from there

In that story (issue 213, I think), there is a scene in which Hank is supposed to have accidentally struck Jan while throwing his hands up in despair and frustration—making a sort of “get away from me” gesture while not looking at her. Bob Hall, who had been taught by John Buscema to always go for the most extreme action, turned that into a right cross! There was no time to have it redrawn, which, to this day has caused the tragic story of Hank Pym to be known as the “wife-beater” story.

When that issue came out, Bill Sienkiewicz came to me upset that I hadn’t asked him to draw it! He saw the intent right through Hall’s mistake, and was moved enough by the story to wish he’d had the chance to do it properly.

[Zelena]

Secondly, Wanda's actions is tantamount to mass sterilization and amount to a kind of genocide. There's no statute of limitations on that in real life. I mean there are many stories of war criminals and others slipping into civilian life only to be revealed and exposed to his neighbors that they did terrible stuff in a war. So it happening 10 years ago is no excuse.

“Tantamount to mass sterilization and amount to a kind of genocide?” Please… These things imply a design, a plan…

What did Wanda was an example of a pissed-off super-being can do in a fit of temper. There’s no real analogy in our world.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What did Wanda was an example of a pissed-off super-being can do in a fit of temper. There’s no real analogy in our world.

Well there's drunk driving, and stuff people say when they are drunk. We don't simply consider being drunk an excuse for someone when they say racist things while high on a bender. People assume that there was something deep in that person that just came out. Or if someone was drunk and ran over a kid, or if a schooldriver or a pilot was drunk and they had an accident that resulted in mass deaths, do we say "they weren't in the right state of mind?"

In Wanda's case, was she in the best emotional state when she did that? No. If she were stable would she have done it? No. But at the end of the day, did she do it? Yes.

Even leaving all that, Wanda's action is disproportionate in the extreme. In House of M, it was the Avengers who were the ones who lied to her about the children and hid her mind-wipe of memories from her, and it was Magneto who was a jerk to her and Pietro. If she had taken powers away from the Avengers or Magneto...you could call that revenge, righteous anger and righteous grievance, or chickens coming home to roost. Instead she took away powers from a swathe of innocent people who had done nothing to her, and who don't deserve to lose their powers because of what people close to Wanda had done to her.

From a Doylist perspective, this is why House of M is a terrible story. Because the biggest thing of House of M -- removing mutants of their powers and Wanda doing it -- doesn't proceed logically from the dramatic conflict in Wanda's life. The story is a small intimate personal story of super-teams and their major malfunctions doesn't connect logically with an action and beat that calls for mass sterilization of mutants, and the fact that this was an Avengers story first and foremost and not done in an X-Men story is also a major editorial faux-pas. Using event stories to alter the status-quo of a single line of publication which doesn't happen in the main titles.

In either case, House of M happened, Wanda did it. And it defines her. For a bunch of mutants she is "the pretender Wanda Maximoff" who took away their powers and identity and being. And that bill will come due eventually.

[OOTCS]

Wanda is a hero who did something very bad. (Whether it's bad writing or not, it's canon and it had a lot of ramifications.) When a hero does something very bad, they need to earn redemption. I actually like that Hickman is finally giving Wanda the opportunity to do so (even though I don't like the sanctimonious way Dr. Strange keeps lecturing her about it). For nearly a decade, it's been a cycle of the mutants being angry and Wanda feeling bad. Sure, they could handwave it and say she was going through a thing and now it's over, or that the number of times she's saved the world should balance the scales in her favor, but neither of those would be very heroic--and besides, even if they stopped bringing it up in canon, the X-fans would never let it go. The correct way to go about it is the heroic way, by having her face up to her actions and do her best to make it right. Good for her.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Wanda is a hero who did something very bad. (Whether it's bad writing or not, it's canon and it had a lot of ramifications.) When a hero does something very bad, they need to earn redemption. I actually like that Hickman is finally giving Wanda the opportunity to do so (even though I don't like the sanctimonious way Dr. Strange keeps lecturing her about it). For nearly a decade, it's been a cycle of the mutants being angry and Wanda feeling bad. Sure, they could handwave it and say she was going through a thing and now it's over, or that the number of times she's saved the world should balance the scales in her favor, but neither of those would be very heroic--and besides, even if they stopped bringing it up in canon, the X-fans would never let it go. The correct way to go about it is the heroic way, by having her face up to her actions and do her best to make it right. Good for her.

Its incredibly hypocritical with the Pheonix Five not only being forgiven but forgotten. As well as doing that with every super-villain because they have an x-gene.

[XPac]

Really, its just being brought up again because Wanda will probably start doing stuff in the Wanda Vision tv show. Not identical stuff obviously ... but I'll wager the source material will be an influence.

[Relugus]

Wanda is a hero who did something very bad. (Whether it's bad writing or not, it's canon and it had a lot of ramifications.) When a hero does something very bad, they need to earn redemption. I actually like that Hickman is finally giving Wanda the opportunity to do so (even though I don't like the sanctimonious way Dr. Strange keeps lecturing her about it). For nearly a decade, it's been a cycle of the mutants being angry and Wanda feeling bad. Sure, they could handwave it and say she was going through a thing and now it's over, or that the number of times she's saved the world should balance the scales in her favor, but neither of those would be very heroic--and besides, even if they stopped bringing it up in canon, the X-fans would never let it go. The correct way to go about it is the heroic way, by having her face up to her actions and do her best to make it right. Good for her.

Why does Hickman trash her skills as a sorceress, then? Is that because her witchcraft is her own narrative, so he, like Bendis, seeks to trash/remove it?

Also, there is no credible reason for her to want to have any relationship with Magneto, due to the destruction their relationship has wrought.

If you put your finger in a socket and get an electric shock, you don't put your finger back in the socket. The socket, the thing you learn to avoid like the plague, for Wanda i
that is Magneto.

For Wanda, Magneto and Chthon are identical dangers. They are both corrupting influences that threaten to destroy her.l

[GenericUsername]

Firstly, in the fiction of the Marvel Universe, it's not been "ten years". Per comic book time, only 14 years passed since the FF flew that rocket. For the mutants, it's been 10 years since Professor Xavier first met Moira MacTaggert. SO the entire period of X-Men (the Claremont years, the Morrison years, the Whedon years, the Post-HoM years...all that happened in a very short period of time...if you find that hard to fathom, welcome to comics).

So Wanda's actions in House of M is pretty recent memory for mutants.

Secondly, Wanda's actions is tantamount to mass sterilization and amount to a kind of genocide. There's no statute of limitations on that in real life. I mean there are many stories of war criminals and others slipping into civilian life only to be revealed and exposed to his neighbors that they did terrible stuff in a war. So it happening 10 years ago is no excuse.

Thirdly, look Hank Pym is never gonna be a hero again for what he did to Janet, and he still gets a lot of grief and is called out multiple times for creating Ultron, a genocidal robot. So if he doesn't get a pass, I don't see how Scarlet Witch qualifies.

Fourthly, it wasn't addressed. The Children's Crusade feinted where they tried to make Doom responsible but the same story had Wolverine at the end say that Doom is fibbing in an effort to help Wanda and it wasn't explicit and nobody at Marvel is comfortable making Doom responsible for the mass culling of mutants.

At least, Hickman is allowing for the possibility of redemption...and indeed it is far more possible for Wanda to find a great good to counter the action of harm she did...then it is for Hank Pym to undo all the stuff he did.



From the perspective of the mutants, it's Wanda Maximoff who did the most harm to them in 616 Marvel. She was the one who took over their powers all out of a sense of resentment and frustration at the person she thought was her father. I mean going "no more mutants" wasn't justifiable in any sense.

The sliding timescale is such a problem. It's difficult to believe that everything in 80 years of comics is stuffed in 14 or 15 years. For a character like Wanda who wasn't even present that much, there's more than a few month or years of story. Much more for those that stuck around while she was gone.

So under any scrutiny, it doesn't hold up.

Also, we have no idea what Hickman is doing yet. At most he's turning her into the idiot woman that always messes up and didn't have years of tutelage by Agatha Harkness. Which is both an insult to Wanda and to Agatha. We also don't know when this takes place or even if it's the same Wanda. Could be a Doombot, again.