Wanda's “unforgivable” crime?!

[XPac]

Question.

I know that Wanda sought the Life Force to bring back her children.
I also know that she originally went to Strange with her plan and he refused.
She then went to Doom.

But, nearly all of the details surrounding these events escape me.

What was Wanda's mental state when she went to both Stephen and Victor? Was she of sound mind, you think?
Was she somehow manipulated by Doom to pursue that idea in the first place?

Theres only so much information you can get with a flashback from a potentially unreliable narrator like Doom.

That said, the fact that she was going to a super villain to raise her magically resurrect her dead children alone probably implies that she wasn't entirely of sound mind. Not necessarily insane... but probably troubled.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Theres only so much information you can get with a flashback from a potentially unreliable narrator like Doom.

That said, the fact that she was going to a super villain to raise her magically resurrect her dead children alone probably implies that she wasn't entirely of sound mind. Not necessarily insane... but probably troubled.

Marvel really should explain all this, give Wanda a one-shot or mini-series from her point of view rather being a passive observer while other people say what happened. She's a veteran Avenger who's saved the world countless times. Where's the respect? And give it to someone who likes the character.

[leokearon]

Well Marvel still haven't explained how Wanda forgot her kids again or where the roughly 15.5 millions mutants vanished of to between Morrison's run and HOM, barring the fact that Benids couldn't be bothered doing any research

[MaximoffTrash]

Marvel really should explain all this, give Wanda a one-shot or mini-series from her point of view rather being a passive observer while other people say what happened. She's a veteran Avenger who's saved the world countless times. Where's the respect? And give it to someone who likes the character.

Well, good job doing that, since HoM is the textbook example of lore butchering, writing from her persepective would be be literal insanity.

[GenericUsername]

The thing is that event storylines come and go, and status-quo is short-lived changes. Like Avengers Disassembled was itself undone later on with characters killed there returning. HoM though stuck around for a decade plus, i.e. the Decimation.

Furthermore, the X-Men wasn't in need of any such status-quo changes. It became a top-selling title with Grant Morrison's run, and he changed and shook up a lot of stuff, Whedon's run that came after also sold pretty well and was also moving in a new direction while building on earlier stuff. So even on a sales perspective, it wasn't justifiable.

They are all for those short bursts in sales. Which is why they kept resetting runs back to #1 too. Everything would sell higher for a few issues. For the X-Men it wasn't that they were stagnating (the Avengers were due to a couple boring runs). For the X-Men Quesada just decided that there were too many mutants. The events were just a plus for their pocket books. Character driven stories took a backseat to the plot driven ones.

[Bunch of Coconuts]

Question.

I know that Wanda sought the Life Force to bring back her children.
I also know that she originally went to Strange with her plan and he refused.
She then went to Doom.

But, nearly all of the details surrounding these events escape me.

What was Wanda's mental state when she went to both Stephen and Victor? Was she of sound mind, you think?
Was she somehow manipulated by Doom to pursue that idea in the first place?

There’s not even evidence that Wanda specifically sought out the Life Force. She just went to Doom for help; we don’t know if the specific method was his or her idea, or an “accident t” (ie. neither knew what they were summoning). Given Doom is supposed to be the superior sorcerer, it’s easier to assume he had more knowledge going in, though.

[XPac]

There’s not even evidence that Wanda specifically sought out the Life Force. She just went to Doom for help; we don’t know if the specific method was his or her idea, or an “accident t” (ie. neither knew what they were summoning). Given Doom is supposed to be the superior sorcerer, it’s easier to assume he had more knowledge going in, though.

The vagueness of that whole situation is somewhat of a double edged sword.

On one hand it arguably created more questions than answers, as Heinberg seemingly didn't bother connecting his story to anything that was in any way, shape, or form established prior to his story. It doesn't even tie in well with Bendis retcons let alone the decades of Wanda material we had prior to that.

But on the other hand because Heinberg didn't bother explaining anything in a lot of ways events are open to interpretation. It wouldn't take much effort to clean up the story since it's basically a flashback from a potentially unreliable narrator. For example, because no one has heard of the Life Force or since CC, you can retcon it to being anything from the Phoenix to Mephisto or Cthon if you wanted to.

Prior to Wanda Vision I doubt anyone would even bother retconning it. But IF Wanda Vision ends up exploring some of these ideas, the comics MIGHT decide to revisit it too... and maybe clean things up. Or make things worse.

[Striderblack01]

The answer to all these questions is that there is no answer. We never got anything beyond a few panels in Children’s Crusade, some of which were narrated by Doom and are intentionally unreliable.

The retcon was intended to explain why Wanda was suddenly omnipotent, but everything else just raised more questions and no other story has followed up.

Well, Damn.

Another dropped ball.

I was in the middle of doing pre-work for a "Trial of Wanda Maximoff" thread, when all these threads popped up and it became redundant.
Contrary to my previous post history, I actually try very hard to remain objective during those threads (I conducted one for Scott Summers).

The more I look into Wanda's case, the more I sympathize with her fans.
Marvel keeps circling around some really great ideas, but they keep botching it - to the explicit detriment of her character.

I think most X-fans are willing to...'forgive' is too strong of a word...excuse/overlook events that occurred during a possession.
But that is dependent on: the ramification of those events, the events leading up to the possession, and the events following the possession.

And Marvel has really screwed over Wanda when it comes to all three.


The Ramifications of the Possession

"No More Mutants" is the single biggest tragedy to affect the X-line.
Full Stop.

It doesn't matter that it was explained away (poorly) in Children's Crusade.
It doesn't matter that it was reversed in AvX.
It's just too big of an event. It affected the line for years.

That Marvel chose to use Wanda for that purpose...is bad.
Unlike say, the Death of Charles Xavier, a character that has died and returned many times (in true comic book fashion), there is no real coming back from something like that.
Not unless you tell a really really good story.


The Events Leading Up To the Possession

So, I'm just going to come out and say it: Children's Crusade was trash.

It was an okay idea, beautifully rendered, and we got some sweet moments, but it's trash because it ultimately failed at its purpose.
The Dr. Doom 'retcon' was executed poorly, and we did not really get Wanda's point of view.
It failed Wanda. It failed the Avengers. And it failed the X-men.

Let's take a brief aside here and talk about Scott Summers.
IMO, the strongest argument that Scott was ultimately responsible for the events during his possession by the Phoenix is this:
It can be argued that Scott's violent disruption of the Avengers' plan (i.e. Tony Stark's desperate "Shoot it with a BFG" plan) caused or contributed to Scott's own possession.
Basically, if Scott and the X-men hadn't been there, Tony's plan might've worked properly.

I personally think there are lot of flaws with that argument, but its an argument that has legal merit and deserved to be fully explored.
And It really wasn't. Not by Marvel, and not even really by the fans in the ensuing discussions.

We have the same scenario with Wanda, but worse.
Marvel never gave us Wanda's POV for this time period.

If CC hadn't happened and HoM stood on its own, Wanda's case would actually be stronger.
Extreme Duress, Catatonia, Violence, Memory Loss, Loss of Reality - these are legitimate symptoms of someone experiencing a mental health disorder.
As much as X-fans would hate it, Wanda would be very easily diagnosed with a Brief Psychotic Disorder and be subsequently acquitted of criminal culpability.
Obviously that wouldn't or shouldn't mean no repercussions whatsoever, but in terms of criminality, that would be end.

But Children's Crusade complicates this.
Things actually became less clear because of this story.

Basically, if Wanda was of sound mind when she went to Doom, then she may be guilty.
If not, then she's acquitted. But the facts during this time period, as laid out, can be used for both the Prosecution and the Defense.

The idea to resurrect her kids with magic seems crazy to the lay person.
But sorcerers use magic to do 'crazy' things all the time.

She went to Dr. Doom for help. That's crazy.
Yes, absolutely. But there's a certain rationality to it too.
Wanda knew she couldn't do it alone (1), so she went to the Sorcerer Supreme for help (2), and failing that, she went to the second most powerful sorcerer on Earth, Dr. Doom (3).
All that seems fairly logical and can lend itself to the argument that she was rational.

She was under extreme emotional stress.
Yes, but to what extent. Enough to render her unable to discern right from wrong? Enough for her to be legally unable to appreciate the possible consequences of her actions?

We just don't know.
And that's a problem.


The Events Following the Possession

Wanda seemed remorseful in the Children's Crusade.
That's good. It could've gone a long way towards "redemption".

But that didn't last.
What we got was Remender's Uncanny Avengers.
And this is where X-fans hatred of Wanda was truly cemented.

Now, UA was a bit of a dumpster fire that I actively avoided, so I don't have the deets.
Do correct me if I get all of this wrong.

During UA, Wanda was not remorseful. She was the opposite - apathetic, downright insulting towards mutant-kind.
This ultimately culminated in Rogue stabbing Wanda.
And it's in this moment that, I think, Remender dropped the ball.

If Rogue, through her power, had learned of the immense crippling guilt that Wanda felt for "her" actions,
If Rogue had learned that Wanda's perceived antagonism was nothing more than a facade,
That she was actually lashing out because she felt she "got off too easily" and "deserved punishment",
And was actively looking for Rogue to punish her,
I mean...that's so good, that's so compelling, and it was right there.

And that's just the guilt aspect. If Remender had explained what happened to Wanda, through Rogue...
But I don't think we got anything like that, did we?

Again, another dropped ball.

[Bunch of Coconuts]

Explaining Wanda through Rogue might resolve the story, but it still ends up telling Wanda’s story without her being present.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Prior to Wanda Vision I doubt anyone would even bother retconning it. But IF Wanda Vision ends up exploring some of these ideas, the comics MIGHT decide to revisit it too... and maybe clean things up. Or make things worse.

Some people seem to have this notion that WandaVision is going to come to the rescue of 616 Wanda. Newsflash, it won't.

The MCU won't come to the rescue and bail out the characters in the comics. The people who see those movies are not gonna read the comics. The versions are too different. Hank Pym in 616 hasn't been bailed out by Michael Douglas, simply because what the MCU confirmed is that the only way Hank can be redeemed is if he never built Ultron, never remarried after his first wife died to a woman who looked just like her, his first wife was a version of Janet, and that Hank becomes a father of a child with Jan. That's so totally remote and removed from the Hank of the comics that they're two separate characters with the common name, tech, and Ant-Man connecting them. The success of the Guardians of the Galaxy movies hasn't made the comics versions top-sellers.

As far as MCU Wanda goes, she isn't Magneto's daughter, she's not a mutant...and no way are they going to backdoor and reintroduce Magneto in a Disney Plus series. The debut of the X-Men in the MCU will be a big event years from now, not some smash and grab. Yes they backdoored Spider-Man into a hurry with the MCU but that was special because of the deal with Sony, and besides it's Spider-Man. MCU Wanda hasn't married Vision or had or lost those kids and in fact she hasn't been established as Scarlet Witch yet, and if anything WandaVision with its '50s Suburban sitcom thing seems to be basing itself on Tom King's VISION miniseries where Vision created a family to live in Washington DC's suburbia, rather than House of M.

I think most X-fans are willing to...'forgive' is too strong of a word...excuse/overlook events that occurred during a possession.
But that is dependent on: the ramification of those events, the events leading up to the possession, and the events following the possession.

Agreed on this, as I do with the rest of your post. It's not that X-Men fans want to hate Wanda forever either. Even after HoM, many of them were upset about Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver no longer being Magneto's kids, though as time passed people I think have accepted it, and now people see Polaris as Erik's heir.

For the X-Men Quesada just decided that there were too many mutants. The events were just a plus for their pocket books. Character driven stories took a backseat to the plot driven ones.

Fact is there isn't any financial or creative justification for Quesada, nor was it something that could be justified as fixing the continuity (as for instance Crisis of Infinite Earths). So he basically invented BS excuses that amount to insulting people's intelligence.

House of M is also a case of editorial malpractice. In general you don't wreck the status-quo of a major team book and a banner title like X-Men by altering that in an event that didn't originate in the run of the lead writer's pen. I think everyone has examples of following a famous run on a character or team only for that to get shafted by an event done by some other writer without the creative team's say-so, consent, or input. HoM is the outstanding overwhelming example of that and even more so because of how long that status-quo lasted. HoM is largely an Avengers story, and not an X-Men story. It wasn't built up or leading up from any setups of X-Men by either Morrison, Whedon, or (sigh) Austen. Whedon himself for the most part ignored the fallout leaving writers after him to come and touch on it.

To reiterate, X-Men are a huge chunk of the Marvel fanbase and any attempts to reclaim Wanda by asking them to get over it is tantamount to writing off or ignoring a huge constituency and major section of the electorate. Sure one must be attentive to Wanda being victim of the "Tyranny of the Majority" but you can't simply ask the X-Men fans to get over it.

[XPac]

Some people seem to have this notion that WandaVision is going to come to the rescue of 616 Wanda. Newsflash, it won't.

The MCU won't come to the rescue and bail out the characters in the comics. The people who see those movies are not gonna read the comics. The versions are too different. Hank Pym in 616 hasn't been bailed out by Michael Douglas, simply because what the MCU confirmed is that the only way Hank can be redeemed is if he never built Ultron, never remarried after his first wife died to a woman who looked just like her, his first wife was a version of Janet, and that Hank becomes a father of a child with Jan. That's so totally remote and removed from the Hank of the comics that they're two separate characters with the common name, tech, and Ant-Man connecting them. The success of the Guardians of the Galaxy movies hasn't made the comics versions top-sellers.

As far as MCU Wanda goes, she isn't Magneto's daughter, she's not a mutant...and no way are they going to backdoor and reintroduce Magneto in a Disney Plus series. The debut of the X-Men in the MCU will be a big event years from now, not some smash and grab. Yes they backdoored Spider-Man into a hurry with the MCU but that was special because of the deal with Sony, and besides it's Spider-Man. MCU Wanda hasn't married Vision or had or lost those kids and in fact she hasn't been established as Scarlet Witch yet, and if anything WandaVision with its '50s Suburban sitcom thing seems to be basing itself on Tom King's VISION miniseries where Vision created a family to live in Washington DC's suburbia, rather than House of M.



Agreed on this, as I do with the rest of your post. It's not that X-Men fans want to hate Wanda forever either. Even after HoM, many of them were upset about Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver no longer being Magneto's kids, though as time passed people I think have accepted it, and now people see Polaris as Erik's heir.



Fact is there isn't any financial or creative justification for Quesada, nor was it something that could be justified as fixing the continuity (as for instance Crisis of Infinite Earths). So he basically invented BS excuses that amount to insulting people's intelligence.

House of M is also a case of editorial malpractice. In general you don't wreck the status-quo of a major team book and a banner title like X-Men by altering that in an event that didn't originate in the run of the lead writer's pen. I think everyone has examples of following a famous run on a character or team only for that to get shafted by an event done by some other writer without the creative team's say-so, consent, or input. HoM is the outstanding overwhelming example of that and even more so because of how long that status-quo lasted. HoM is largely an Avengers story, and not an X-Men story. It wasn't built up or leading up from any setups of X-Men by either Morrison, Whedon, or (sigh) Austen. Whedon himself for the most part ignored the fallout leaving writers after him to come and touch on it.

To reiterate, X-Men are a huge chunk of the Marvel fanbase and any attempts to reclaim Wanda by asking them to get over it is tantamount to writing off or ignoring a huge constituency and major section of the electorate. Sure one must be attentive to Wanda being victim of the "Tyranny of the Majority" but you can't simply ask the X-Men fans to get over it.

Depends on what you mean by bailed out.

Do I think the MCU take on Wanda will somehow change the minds of the people who hate the character? No, because it's a different character.

But I do think there's a possibility that because of the MCU use of the character, the comics might revisit the issue and handle it better. Of course that's just speculation ... time will tell.

[Frontier]

Depends on what you mean by bailed out.

Do I think the MCU take on Wanda will somehow change the minds of the people who hate the character? No, because it's a different character.

But I do think there's a possibility that because of the MCU use of the character, the comics might revisit the issue and handle it better. Of course that's just speculation ... time will tell.

The MCU will keep a character relevant and in people's consciousness, and at the very least it tends to mean they're at least used more and positively in other media, although unlike other characters Wanda lost out on a major media push because of the Fox deal.

(Of course she also missed out on being in Avengers Assemble, which could be a silver lining when you think about it even if it was silly that they threw in characters who didn't even have movies out yet rather than use her).

[GenericUsername]

Depends on what you mean by bailed out.

Do I think the MCU take on Wanda will somehow change the minds of the people who hate the character? No, because it's a different character.

But I do think there's a possibility that because of the MCU use of the character, the comics might revisit the issue and handle it better. Of course that's just speculation ... time will tell.

The synopsis hints at something messing with Vision and Wanda. So I don't think her reality warping is involved. Yet, at least. Keep in mind that this version of Wanda does not have the power conduit ability just yet. It could be something they establish down the line if she stays in the MCU long enough. Or they could rush into it with Agatha appearing and telling her about her powers. But I'd rather they not rush something involving Chthon if they go that route. Especially if it's to do some fan wishlist thing of her bringing people's favorite heroes into the MCU. That'd be garbage. A lot of those videos with predictions on her are straight garbage.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Depends on what you mean by bailed out.

Do I think the MCU take on Wanda will somehow change the minds of the people who hate the character? No, because it's a different character.

But I do think there's a possibility that because of the MCU use of the character, the comics might revisit the issue and handle it better. Of course that's just speculation ... time will tell.

That might happen, in theory.

Practically speaking, Wanda Vision was mid-production before the Lockdown. It's not finished production leave alone post-production, so it's not likely to drop on Disney Plus until late 2021-2022 at the earliest. By which time Hickman's X-Men run would have clocked more time and likely deal with this even more.

[GenericUsername]

The MCU will keep a character relevant and in people's consciousness, and at the very least it tends to mean they're at least used more and positively in other media, although unlike other characters Wanda lost out on a major media push because of the Fox deal.

(Of course she also missed out on being in Avengers Assemble, which could be a silver lining when you think about it even if it was silly that they threw in characters who didn't even have movies out yet rather than use her).

Wanda wasn't tied to the Fox stuff. Feige stated that no one negotiated for the twins, so anyone could use them. Wanda has gotten a bigger push in merchandise from being in the MCU than she ever got simply from comics. Avengers Assemble was just to reflect the MCU then, she hadn't been in it quite yet. So they did not add her. She was actually supposed to end up in EMH but that show got cancelled. It's universe was tied to Wolverine and the X-Men. She was gonna go from the Brotherhood to the Avengers.