Wanda's “unforgivable” crime?!

[Iron Maiden]

Not like Jean was, and he didn't think he did anything wrong while being Dark Phoenix. This story as about both teams, that's why it called Avengers vs X-men rather than X-men: (Blank) which guest starred the Avengers. Decimation being a thing isn't a good reason for the X-men not to be written as bad guys if they are the bad guys in the story. Avengers members have had that done to them, in fact - like Iron Man. It's telling when after he won Civil War marvel toned down the evil things he did or quietly retconned them because many writers thought he was a villain in that story, Mark Millar wasn't one of them. Despite that, he was made to be the bad guy whenever he talked to numerous Avengers (Thor, for instance) and that was a natural response. I say this as a fan of Iron Man.


What do the movie rights have to do with HYDRA Cap or AvX? Perlmutter may have downplayed the X-men regarding Fox owning them but Magneto!/Dark Phoenix Scott was embraced by many X-men fans as a good thing. I disagree with their take but *shrug*. The example bought up replaced Cyclops with Captain America and I explained how the two aren't the same. They're literally two separate people.


The man in yellow is HYDRA Supreme AKA HYDRA Captain America, the other is the real Steve Rogers.

Let me just add I'm glad Millar is long gone from Marvel and he has his own characters to screw around with. He has been successful (bafflingly so to me) getting film adaptations of his creations,etc so he really doesn't need the gig anyway.

[BroHomo]

They're not going to destroy the Star Brand because it means murdering a baby. They weren't keen on killing Hope either... that's why Steve threw Logan out of a plane.

If the Star Brand was actively trying to destroy worlds like the Phoenix was at the start of AvX, the Avengers obviously wouldn't bring it to earth... but the threat at the moment is contained. That's not to say it's without risk... just as there was a risk in helping Hope and Wanda.

I guess destroying a Galaxy sized prison is not the same as destroying a world....
Except it WAS destroying worlds HENCe why so many cosmic chars were trying to stop it/the Avengers

[Lucyinthesky]

Not like Jean was, and he didn't think he did anything wrong while being Dark Phoenix. This story as about both teams, that's why it called Avengers vs X-men rather than X-men: (Blank) which guest starred the Avengers. Decimation being a thing isn't a good reason for the X-men not to be written as bad guys if they are the bad guys in the story. Avengers members have had that done to them, in fact - like Iron Man. It's telling when after he won Civil War marvel toned down the evil things he did or quietly retconned them because many writers thought he was a villain in that story, Mark Millar wasn't one of them. Despite that, he was made to be the bad guy whenever he talked to numerous Avengers (Thor, for instance) and that was a natural response. I say this as a fan of Iron Man.

Yes every super hero by now has been made a bad guy at least once well maybe not all, because I don´t remember Spider-Man being made one, still the story was about Avengers vs X-men,when you make a hero vs hero fight you try to at least make an argument for both to keep the story and the characters balanced but many things were ignored to bring false tension into the story and push the Avengers in a better light just because, even if it didn´t made sense at the moment, when you have to bassically posses the main leaders of one of the teams to force a confrontation with them then maybe you didn´t do a good job developing the reasons and tension for the story.

The story also got in the way of the X-men dealing with decimation only for it to end with things left unfinished which was annoying because it was a big thing on the X-books, having been developed for years and two main crossovers between all the titles. If they have made it just a classic avengers vs x-men story then maybe it would have been better.

What do the movie rights have to do with HYDRA Cap or AvX? Perlmutter may have downplayed the X-men regarding Fox owning them but Magneto!/Dark Phoenix Scott was embraced by many X-men fans as a good thing. I disagree with their take but *shrug*. The example bought up replaced Cyclops with Captain America and I explained how the two aren't the same. They're literally two separate people.

The man in yellow is HYDRA Supreme AKA HYDRA Captain America, the other is the real Steve Rogers.

My analogy was about how Avengers fans would have reacted if the X-men were made the main heros of an Avengers story like Secret Empire, just like they were made for AvX in what was bassically a X-men story. I also made clear I felt personally that way, I was not talking about others fans povs but I have seen some of them agreeing with me in how I saw the story. In fact is part of the reason why some X-Fans like it better when the X-men are left in their own corner of the MU, I personally like it when they interact with the main marvel universe, it makes me remember the old comics where most characters could interact but only if they are well written and the story is well balanced and developed which isn´t always the case.

The problem with AvX is that the arguments over which side was "right" are completely plot-dependent. The only reason any character is right or wrong is that the plot makes them right or wrong.

Agreed, I think writers can make stories were both sides are partially right but that has not been the case lately.

Compare that with "Civil War," the event all these vs. events are ripping off. There fan arguments actually have a point because the pro-registration vs. anti-registration viewpoints are moral/ethical issues. Even if registration leads to something bad for a character you can still believe the pro-reg side had the better argument. The same goes for something like "Identity Crisis" where fans could argue over the ethics of magically mind-wiping villains. Most of the successive events don't get this and instead they try to create arguments about whether the Avengers or the X-Men were right about the Phoenix. How should we know when we don't even know what exactly the Phoenix is or does?

I liked Civil War until it got a little out of hand with the pro-registration heros the fact Tony and Reed thought it was a good idea to put in jail other heros in the negative dimension and then never getting any consequences over that left a bad taste for me in the story. But it had an interesting premise and yes Identity Crisis was also interesting.

[Tony Stark]

Not like Jean was, and he didn't think he did anything wrong while being Dark Phoenix. This story as about both teams, that's why it called Avengers vs X-men rather than X-men: (Blank) which guest starred the Avengers. Decimation being a thing isn't a good reason for the X-men not to be written as bad guys if they are the bad guys in the story. Avengers members have had that done to them, in fact - like Iron Man. It's telling when after he won Civil War marvel toned down the evil things he did or quietly retconned them because many writers thought he was a villain in that story, Mark Millar wasn't one of them. Despite that, he was made to be the bad guy whenever he talked to numerous Avengers (Thor, for instance) and that was a natural response. I say this as a fan of Iron Man.

They didn’t retcon anything Tony did during Civil War. Every character called him out on the things he did. Thor kicked Tony’s ass real good for making a clone of him. Reed Richards is the one that got a pass on everything.

[XPac]

I guess destroying a Galaxy sized prison is not the same as destroying a world....
Except it WAS destroying worlds HENCe why so many cosmic chars were trying to stop it/the Avengers

The threat was contained (at least for now) with the baby. Again, if the baby tried destroying planets with the Star Brand the Avengers likely wouldn't be bring it to earth. It's the difference between an active threat and a potential one.

[Tony Stark]

The threat was contained (at least for now) with the baby. Again, if the baby tried destroying planets with the Star Brand the Avengers likely wouldn't be bring it to earth. It's the difference between an active threat and a potential one.

Pretty much what I was going to state.

[BroHomo]

The threat was contained (at least for now) with the baby. Again, if the baby tried destroying planets with the Star Brand the Avengers likely wouldn't be bring it to earth. It's the difference between an active threat and a potential one.

Yes cause babies are usually the most trustworthy to act responsibly.

Pretty much what I was going to state.

If given the choice between
a cosmic world eater coming to earth thats been successfully controlled by both the Mother and the (still alive)Daughter
Oooooor
A baby who has access to a cosmic world eater weapon.
Id prob pick the first one.
They convoluted all these extra people into the Phoenix mythos because The avengers decided
Hope was too young, too inexperienced to weld the PF
But a world ending weapon who use is at the whim of a newborn?
Yeah that's cool

[XPac]

Yes cause babies are usually the most trustworthy to act responsibly.


If given the choice between
a cosmic world eater coming to earth thats been successfully controlled by both the Mother and the (still alive)Daughter
Oooooor
A baby who has access to a cosmic world eater weapon.
Id prob pick the first one.
They convoluted all these extra people into the Phoenix mythos because The avengers decided
Hope was too young, too inexperienced to weld the PF
But a world ending weapon who use is at the whim of a newborn?
Yeah that's cool

Its not exactly cool... there is a risk to what the Avengers are doing and they know it. But they don't want the baby killed, and it needs to be watched over. The pregmant mother couldn't control the Star Brand, but the baby so far seems chill. Not that there isn't an inherent danger, but for the moment the threat is contained.

In the case of Phoenix, Logan and Beast indicated to Steve the potential danger of Hope controlling PHoenix and he acted on their advice. You can fault Steve for taking their word over Scotts.... but considering they were right about Hope not being able to control it and Scott was wrong, I don't think Steve will lose too much sleep over his call there. Had Logan and Beast not adviced Steve, maybe Steve would have trusted Scott... but in hindsight that would have been a bad mistake. So things worked out the way they needed to.

And perhaps the Avengers are making a mistake this time. Again, the threat is contained for now... the baby has shown no signs of being a danger. That could change, and if the Avengers can't contain the situation the responsibility would be on them. We'll see.

[Ferro]

anyways I just wanda to die off in an event (no relation to mutants just like a casuality) and the island makes "ding dong the witch is dead" go number one on Itunes.

that be the most hilarious addition to this story I can think off

[gurkle]

LOL if they killed Wanda off (which they might, though it'll probably be in a mutant story) the endless Wanda threads would continue forever.

Wanda and Jean Grey are similar characters - not surprising since they were both The Token Girl on the first two mutant groups - and they both have this strange ability to make any story about them even when they're not actually in it. Think of how much we never stopped hearing about Jean or seeing fake-out characters who might be Jean during the time she was dead. Wanda could be out of comics for years (already was, currently almost is) and we'll still never stop arguing about her.

[Journey]

Ya know the fact people obsess and converse over her like this is the main reason she will never stop fucking up in X-Books and will likely never see the redemption arc or complete separation her fans and some of her haters want. The writers feed off this energy it's why they'll keep doing what they're doing. *shrugs*

[gurkle]

Ya know the fact people obsess and converse over her like this is the main reason she will never stop fucking up in X-Books and will likely never see the redemption arc or complete separation her fans and some of her haters want. The writers feed off this energy it's why they'll keep doing what they're doing. *shrugs*

True. Her fans and haters agree on one thing, they'd rather not see her in stories that bring up House of M. Unfortunately it's clear by now that it's not going to happen, even if the MCU version doesn't go that way (well, if she does it won't be wiping out mutants, but you know what I mean). Marvel editors believe, and they're probably right, that angry fans mean more sales.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Yes every super hero by now has been made a bad guy at least once well maybe not all, because I don´t remember Spider-Man being made one, still the story was about Avengers vs X-men,when you make a hero vs hero fight you try to at least make an argument for both to keep the story and the characters balanced but many things were ignored to bring false tension into the story and push the Avengers in a better light just because, even if it didn´t made sense at the moment, when you have to bassically posses the main leaders of one of the teams to force a confrontation with them then maybe you didn´t do a good job developing the reasons and tension for the story.

Peter hit a pregnant Mary-Jane in the 90's.



Ben Reilly, his clone, who temporary doom up the Spider-man mane also became a villain.

The Avengers and X-men were getting into fights in AvX long before the Phoenix Five, it spilt into the ongoings - which didn't do the Avengers any favors. Revolutionary! Cyclops was a controversial figure since he became Magneto 2.0. Put him in any confrontation with any non-X-men team, and they'll come off as correct against someone like him.

The story also got in the way of the X-men dealing with decimation only for it to end with things left unfinished which was annoying because it was a big thing on the X-books, having been developed for years and two main crossovers between all the titles. If they have made it just a classic avengers vs x-men story then maybe it would have been better.

It's a crossover, and Decimation didn't end with that. The X-men are allowed to be wrong occasionally, Revolutionary! Cyclops couldn't even rely on all then X-men to back him since it lead to a civil war between the team.

My analogy was about how Avengers fans would have reacted if the X-men were made the main heros of an Avengers story like Secret Empire, just like they were made for AvX in what was bassically a X-men story. I also made clear I felt personally that way, I was not talking about others fans povs but I have seen some of them agreeing with me in how I saw the story. In fact is part of the reason why some X-Fans like it better when the X-men are left in their own corner of the MU, I personally like it when they interact with the main marvel universe, it makes me remember the old comics where most characters could interact but only if they are well written and the story is well balanced and developed which isn´t always the case.

Except the analogy wasn't a good match since the differences shown are why that didn't make the Avengers fanbase turn on Cap. But the Avengers didn't do that in AvX, its right in the title, its not an X-men story not every story the X-men are in are just an X-men story. But there's minimising how popular those depictions of Cyclops were with the fanbase, while HYDRA Cap and Civil War Tony/Reed were despised by theirs.

Even in the older stories the X-men and Avengers clashed. Violently.

Agreed, I think writers can make stories were both sides are partially right but that has not been the case lately.

True, but the X-men should be allowed to do wrong things or being called out when they do bad things.

I liked Civil War until it got a little out of hand with the pro-registration heros the fact Tony and Reed thought it was a good idea to put in jail other heros in the negative dimension and then never getting any consequences over that left a bad taste for me in the story. But it had an interesting premise and yes Identity Crisis was also interesting.

That's why I preferred the movie version. Tony and Reed should have gotten more consequences for their actions.

[Lucyinthesky]

Peter hit a pregnant Mary-Jane in the 90's.
Ben Reilly, his clone, who temporary doom up the Spider-man mane also became a villain.
The Avengers and X-men were getting into fights in AvX long before the Phoenix Five, it spilt into the ongoings - which didn't do the Avengers any favors. Revolutionary! Cyclops was a controversial figure since he became Magneto 2.0. Put him in any confrontation with any non-X-men team, and they'll come off as correct against someone like him.
It's a crossover, and Decimation didn't end with that. The X-men are allowed to be wrong occasionally, Revolutionary! Cyclops couldn't even rely on all then X-men to back him since it lead to a civil war between the team.
Except the analogy wasn't a good match since the differences shown are why that didn't make the Avengers fanbase turn on Cap. But the Avengers didn't do that in AvX, its right in the title, its not an X-men story not every story the X-men are in are just an X-men story. But there's minimising how popular those depictions of Cyclops were with the fanbase, while HYDRA Cap and Civil War Tony/Reed were despised by theirs.
Even in the older stories the X-men and Avengers clashed. Violently.
True, but the X-men should be allowed to do wrong things or being called out when they do bad things.
That's why I preferred the movie version. Tony and Reed should have gotten more consequences for their actions.

Decimation is definitely a X-men story, not an Avengers issue, so I stand by what I said, it would have been better if marvel did a different AvX story and yes I think Reed and Tony should have gotten way more consequences for all the stuff they did during civil war.

Cyclops wasn´t anywhere near being Magneto or at least not villain magneto, the only thing they had in common at the time was that both were living on Utopia, which was Magneto´s old asteroid base, the reason they choose to leave San Francisco to Utopia made sense given Norman Onsborn attacked them and they keep contact with the goverment of San Francisco, they keep supporting and protecting the world and keep helping each other deal with decimation, just X-men bussines as usual, they just went from the X-mansion to Utopia.

Yes I remember that scene of Peter but I doubt it counts as an actual villain arc for him, maybe that time he meet Venom counts more as an villain arc for him.

[JTHM]

Ya know the fact people obsess and converse over her like this is the main reason she will never stop fucking up in X-Books and will likely never see the redemption arc or complete separation her fans and some of her haters want. The writers feed off this energy it's why they'll keep doing what they're doing. *shrugs*

Literally this. If you showed this to any current Marvel writer (let alone an X-Office writer) they would probably think to themselves "Wow, this makes readers so engaged. Better keep it the way it is."

To be quite frank, Wanda gets more juice out of the Marvel Comic crowd this way than any other. Writers know it. They know that if they give her a proper, definitive redemption arc or just accept the wackiness of the situation and turn her totally evil they would lose on to threads like this, on discussions between "She's good/she's bad" between general fans and X-fans. And that, in the end, whatever they do with her will not bring as much attention as this does. And writers care first and foremost about the engagement of the readers, not necessarily their enjoyment.

Only hope is that movie influence is so big they are forced to synchronize Wanda's character with the movies, but even that is not a given.