Wanda's “unforgivable” crime?!

[GenericUsername]

The X-men have managed a big number of members for most of the 90´s it´s just natural when teams expand a writers bring more new characters to the table, not writting all of them all the time was exactly what the writers were doing and after Genosha, there was no reason to do another event about mutants dying, the X-books covered most of the main characters anyway. So I would like to know what was marvel logic at the time with killing off or depowering mutants just right after a similar event happened in the comics and now Jordan White said they didn´t need to reduce the number to 198 because when compared to the rest of the human population, that´s not even a minority.

Kevin Feige had plans of making references to mutants as early as Iron Man´s first movie but they didn´t get an agreemnt with Fox so they cut off that part. I would agree it was until this moment the discussion over the characters rights got more complicated.

It's because it was Quesada's idea to shake up things and to cull numbers because he had a bad interpretation of minorities and marginalization. In the early 2000s Marvel wasn't trying to push Fox into selling the rights back. Marvel wasn't in that kind of position yet. And really wouldn't be until they were bought up by Disney. Which didn't happen until 2008. Them excluding mutants from everything to push Fox into stricking a deal didn't happen until 2014.

[Lucyinthesky]

I think both things are or could be connected given the way things developed over on the X-books but well I think at this point there´s no much point to keep discussing this given we can´t know for sure and yes decimation would not be the first time he was in charge of an unpopular story.

Back on topic I think in the case of Wanda, given the X-men are already addressing decimation with the ressurection protocols that leaves the matter of Wanda but I guess her fans are just tired of this matter and I agree, I just wish marvel handled the story better.

[GenericUsername]

I think both things are or could be connected given the way things developed over on the X-books but well I think at this point there´s no much point to keep discussing this given we can´t know for sure and yes decimation would not be the first time he was in charge of an unpopular story.

Back on topic I think in the case of Wanda, given the X-men are already addressing decimation with the ressurection protocols that leaves the matter of Wanda but I guess her fans are just tired of this matter and I agree, I just wish marvel handled the story better.

If it were even remotely so, they wouldn't have started it off with trashing the classic Avengers team. It's just this is what comics have been since they started doing the dark and shocking stuff. They started amping up heroes become villains, villains become heroes. Everything is bleak stuff.

[Lucyinthesky]

I think you can argue Utopia and Krakoa made mutants pretty scary to the world.

Utopia was made as a response of mutants being sistematically targeted, at first they were mostly on their own.

Didn't Scott call his group the Extinction team or something to that effect because they were essentially weapons of mass destruction? He was literally trying to scare the world into leaving them alone (which if Scott ever took a psychology class in his life would realise that would have the opposite effect).

The Extinction team was made to help protect the world and gain a few points for Utopia, they were kind of the mutant Avengers and he made sure that at least San Francisco Mayor was involved with some of their decisions so it wasn´t like it was made to scare people off. Seriously Scott´s Utopia was not that different to the usual X-men stories, he just had bad rep, because marvel wanted to push him agaist Steve and the Avengers before the AvX crossover.

Krakoa is scary in a less direct way. Without trying to sound too judgemental it's this sort of creepy cult. They're killing each other and rising from the dead.

The smaller numbers make them scarier because it makes them desperate. It makes them more militant. Even the good guys will start going to more and more extreme measures to try and preserve themselves. A wild animal is a hole lot scarier when it's back in a corner with no place to go.

I think it´s human to look for community and protection when you felt you are being killed off little by little, nothing militant with that, it´s quite a human reaction.

Krakoa is more like them saying We already tried to get along with you guys, we will still try but this time it will be on our terms.

If it were even remotely so, they wouldn't have started it off with trashing the classic Avengers team. It's just this is what comics have been since they started doing the dark and shocking stuff. They started amping up heroes become villains, villains become heroes. Everything is bleak stuff.

I remember reading a Bendis interview in which he bassically said he was tasked with making the Avengers a more modern looking team and he understood why fans hated him, he after all went with a baseboll bat and started destroying things, methaphorically speaking, on the Avengers house, so I see your point but I don´t think things in the general marvel universe became more bleak, I saw it morel like them trying to use more direct analogies with the RW. He brought characters like Wolverine and Spider-Man to the Avengers, that was interesting for me as a new Avengers reader, because I liked those characters, I guess what´s left to do is to involve new versions of the classic avengers and give them more to do with the main title.

[XPac]

Utopia was made as a response of mutants being sistematically targeted, at first they were mostly on their own.



The Extinction team was made to help protect the world and gain a few points for Utopia, they were kind of the mutant Avengers and he made sure that at least San Francisco Mayor was involved with some of their decisions so it wasn´t like it was made to scare people off.



I think it´s human to look for community and protection when you felt you are being killed off little by little, nothing militant with that, it´s quite a human reaction.

Krakoa is more like them saying We already tried to get along with you guys, we will still try but this time it will be on our terms.

You don't call your group the Extinction team if you're not trying to scare people.

I'm not saying what they're doing isn't understandable. Anyone in their position would become more militant... the bottom line though being they are still becoming more militant. And people who already fear mutants will only fear them more now because of that. They're working with super villains.... they're killing people (with consent) to repower them. And of course there's X-Force. That speaks for itself. They're understandably doing what they need to do to survive... but that's making them a heck of a lot scarier than they were when they were just a super hero team punching out bad guys. But the trade off being it arguably makes them more interesting. That's what Decimation got them.

[Lucyinthesky]

You don't call your group the Extinction team if you're not trying to scare people.

TBH I think that was more like their designed file name, because they were supposed to deal with extinction level situations, they protected San Francisco from Mr Sinister and the dreaming celestial, etc to the world at large they were just the X-men but I see the point

I'm not saying what they're doing isn't understandable. Anyone in their position would become more militant... the bottom line though being they are still becoming more militant. And people who already fear mutants will only fear them more now because of that. They're working with super villains.... they're killing people (with consent) to repower them. And of course there's X-Force. That speaks for itself. They're understandably doing what they need to do to survive... but that's making them a heck of a lot scarier than they were when they were just a super hero team punching out bad guys. But the trade off being it arguably makes them more interesting. That's what Decimation got them.

I would like to read a little more of Hickman´s X-men before deciding because it´s clear there´s still many things left for the reader to interpret but yes, they are supposed to be of a mind in which they have accepted they may never be seen without fear so they are trying to improve themselves and be happy despite that. They invited their villains as a trade off, I stop fighting you, you stop attacking the world and lest go live together as one people. I am sure in the next few months we will see some of their villains betraying them sooner rather than later but at least some of them will look at their offer at face value,so it would have been for something, making themselves vulnerable that way, because the ones more vulnerable to their betrayal are the X-men themselves not the world at large.

[GenericUsername]

Utopia was made as a response of mutants being sistematically targeted, at first they were mostly on their own.



The Extinction team was made to help protect the world and gain a few points for Utopia, they were kind of the mutant Avengers and he made sure that at least San Francisco Mayor was involved with some of their decisions so it wasn´t like it was made to scare people off. Seriously Scott´s Utopia was not that different to the usual X-men stories, he just had bad rep, because marvel wanted to push him agaist Steve and the Avengers before the AvX crossover.



I think it´s human to look for community and protection when you felt you are being killed off little by little, nothing militant with that, it´s quite a human reaction.

Krakoa is more like them saying We already tried to get along with you guys, we will still try but this time it will be on our terms.



I remember reading a Bendis interview in which he bassically said he was tasked with making the Avengers a more modern looking team and he understood why fans hated him, he after all went with a baseboll bat and started destroying things, methaphorically speaking, on the Avengers house, so I see your point but I don´t think things in the general marvel universe became more bleak, I saw it morel like them trying to use more direct analogies with the RW. He brought characters like Wolverine and Spider-Man to the Avengers, that was interesting for me as a new Avengers reader, because I liked those characters, I guess what´s left to do is to involve new versions of the classic avengers and give them more to do with the main title.

It's not really real world. If that's what they were going for then they failed at that too. It was dark events. Someone died each time or multiple people died. Heroes were turned into jackasses. It's more along the lines of dystopian style than real life. Because it's still set in this universe that isn't very realistic at all. It's fine to have a new Avengers team. Not the first time in history by far. It's how it was done in what way that made it bad. And made it dark.

[Lucyinthesky]

It's not really real world. If that's what they were going for then they failed at that too. It was dark events. Someone died each time or multiple people died. Heroes were turned into jackasses. It's more along the lines of dystopian style than real life. Because it's still set in this universe that isn't very realistic at all. It's fine to have a new Avengers team. Not the first time in history by far. It's how it was done in what way that made it bad. And made it dark.

For me it´s mixed feeling Avengers dissasembled, House of M, Civil War, Secret invasion and Dark Reign were quite dark but the Heroic Age post Dark Reign was mostly a feel good again group of stories, even in the X-books things improved a little during this time, the fight over Asgrad had an epic feel I had not seen in a while on marvel, Hickman´s FantasticFour were very bright and optimistic family stories, Kieron Gillen X-men was mostly them having fun being super heros again, young avengers was usually quite light hearted and happy stories with the exception of Children´s crusade, Empyre had a mostly happy and optimistic feel, if we are talking bleak and dark I would say the early 90´s were a lot more pesimistic times. I think the tone of the story depends more on the writer and what they want to do with the characters.

Heros being turned into jackassess I think has a little to do with the influence of the MCU but well, marvel could do well stopping trying to make the comic counter part of the characters so similar to their MCU versions and instead focus on developing them.

[GenericUsername]

For me it´s mixed feeling Avengers dissasembled, House of M, Civil War, Secret invasion and Dark Reign were quite dark but the Heroic Age post Dark Reign was mostly a feel good again group of stories, even in the X-books things improved a little during this time, the fight over Asgrad had an epic feel I had not seen in a while on marvel, Hickman´s FantasticFour were very bright and optimistic family stories, Kieron Gillen X-men was mostly them having fun being super heros again, young avengers was usually quite light hearted and happy stories with the exception of Children´s crusade, Empyre had a mostly happy and optimistic feel, if we are talking bleak and dark I would say the early 90´s were a lot more pesimistic times. I think the tone of the story depends more on the writer and what they want to do with the characters.

Heros being turned into jackassess I think has a little to do with the influence of the MCU but well, marvel could do well stopping trying to make the comic counter part of the characters so similar to their MCU versions and instead focus on developing them.

Hickman's F4 was bright after Johnny came back, but not when he was killed off. What about Dark Reign wasn't dark? I'm not saying that makes it bad either mind you. Just that it was no light romp. 90s Avengers was great at times and boring others but wasn't dark. Having everyone killed off in horrible ways and the mansion destroyed, taking out hallmarks for the Avengers with it was way beyond that. Even Tony being taken over by Kang, or Vision taken over by ISAAC wasn't as dark. Even in canon Disassembled was the Avengers darkest day.

Heroes being turned into jackasses had nothing to do with the MCU, because when that started to happen in comics, the MCU was not a thing. Marvel Studios hadn't even been formed yet. MCU versions aren't even like that anyway. They are still going through their heroic era.

[Lucyinthesky]

Hickman's F4 was bright after Johnny came back, but not when he was killed off. What about Dark Reign wasn't dark? I'm not saying that makes it bad either mind you. Just that it was no light romp. 90s Avengers was great at times and boring others but wasn't dark. Having everyone killed off in horrible ways and the mansion destroyed, taking out hallmarks for the Avengers with it was way beyond that. Even Tony being taken over by Kang, or Vision taken over by ISAAC wasn't as dark. Even in canon Disassembled was the Avengers darkest day.

Hickman´s F4 was bright before and after Johnny "died" he really was ruling the negative dimension and I liked to see him mature a little bit and Sue being made an ambassador for Atlantis. I was talking about 90´s marvel in general Spider-Man and parts of X-men were kind of dark but you are right the Avengers titles were not dark at the time.

Heroes being turned into jackasses had nothing to do with the MCU, because when that started to happen in comics, the MCU was not a thing. Marvel Studios hadn't even been formed yet. MCU versions aren't even like that anyway. They are still going through their heroic era.

Must be Bendis style then, I guess but I liked his Spider-Man, Nick Fury and Maria Hill. The thing with Bendis is that he´s usually good with solo titles and street level heros but doesn´t do as well with whole teams and more powerful characters. But I liked his first Avengers issues post Dissasembled.

[GenericUsername]

I liked Hickman's F4. It was pretty great. But Johnny's death was pretty depressing. The Future Foundation stuff I found to be pretty light. But that stuff is subjective. I like seeing characters grow and get older, I don't have a problem with it. I just didn't see it as bright. Which isn't necessarily an insult. My problem is how dark is sometimes done or how often. Balance is always a preference for me. Overall I feel like comics try too much to be edgy in the modern day.

[Tony Stark]

From what I hear the X-Men are doing I think that they have every right to do so. They should be left alone.........but when this blows up. Which it will. A lot of innocent people will get hurt or killed. This has too many dangerous personalities mixing and Xavier and the X-Men will have no one to blame but themselves and the Avengers will have to fix it. From what I have seen Beast is already heading to this conclusion.

[Ferro]

From what I hear the X-Men are doing I think that they have every right to do so. They should be left alone.........but when this blows up. Which it will. A lot of innocent people will get hurt or killed. This has too many dangerous personalities mixing and Xavier and the X-Men will have no one to blame but themselves and the Avengers will have to fix it. From what I have seen Beast is already heading to this conclusion.

"the avengers will have to fix it" please what part of their current book of getting their asses handed to them by moon boy and getting their asses handed again by plant people until a deux ech armor suit was invented says the avengers can defeat krakoa? they cant even deal with namor, don't make me laugh.

the avenger's are the most overyhyped jobbers in the current marvel universe, let's not pretend otherwise, AND they aren't entitled to being heroes in the x-men titles just because they are self acclaimed A-list superheroes, the x-men books already have main characters.

AND ALSO it took blantant favoritism and every other marvel propriety becoming "an avenger" to make the sides balanced on the first time, literaly in what universe are the avengers even necessary or needed in any x-men tale or are even capable of winning agaist it's current size?

Like, can the x-men get their own seperate universes so my favorite characters dont get policed by the red headed step child no one cares about outside of te mcu, to show up uninvinted to become the heroes in someone else's story? Honestly im not sure why the avengers are necessary or even should be allowed to "fix a situation", it's so anoying imagine if batman books had to worry about the justice league butting into any slightly darker story for "justice" when they can't even deal with any threat in their own main book.

[Tony Stark]

"the avengers will have to fix it" please what part of their current book of getting their asses handed to them by moon boy and getting their asses handed again by plant people until a deux ech armor suit was invented says the avengers can defeat krakoa? they cant even deal with namor, don't make me laugh.
the avenger's are the most overyhyped jobbers in the current marvel universe, let's not pretend otherwise, they aren't entitled to being heroes in the x-men titles, those already have main characters.

it took blantant favoritism and every other marvel propriety becoming "an avenger" to make the sides balanced on the first time, literaly in what universe are the avengers even necessary or needed in any x-men tale?

Like, can the x-men own seperate universes so my favorite characters dont get policed by the red headed step child no one cares about outside of te mcu, to show up uninvinted to become the heroes in someone else's story? Honestly im not sure why the avengers are necessary or even should be allowed to "fix a situation", it's so anoying imagine if batman books had to worry about the justice league butting into any slightly darker story for "justice" when they can't even deal with any threat in their own main book.

I'm not talking about beating up Krakoa. I'm saying the Avengers will have to step in and fix it or save it. Just remember what I said here lol. Also I am the kind of person that adores saying I told you so.

[Ferro]

Just remember what I said here lol. Also I am the kind of person that adores saying I told you so.

The avengers aren't the main top dogs, not anymore in the books.

There won't be an avengers vs x-men 2.0 because now the scales are balanced and marvel know who wins in ever metric.

The avenger's wont be the vaunted heroes that save the day in someone else's book because the artifical sense of importance that made everyone bow down to the avengers is gone, there is no more mandate to pretend they are the most important and powerfull team in the marvel universe, they aren't even conected to shield anymore.