Wanda's “unforgivable” crime?!

[lowfyr]

I thought Bishop got too much of a free pass. People like Jean, Wanda, and the Phoenix 5 can arguably get off the hook for possession or whatever. That just happens in their line of work. See Axis.

But Bishop wasn't possessed or controlled or anything like that. He murdered billions purely because he was a baby killing jerk.

True. If we are talking about unforgivable stuff he is one of the first X-Men on the list. And his excuse that killing Hope would erase him killing billions of people does not really work because even if true he still would have killed a baby for something she perhaps will do in the future.

The main problem with Wanda is simply the story was bad from the start and the handling of it got even worse.

[Steel Inquisitor]

So it states here that Doom was behind Wanda's act. I didn't see it in Childrens Crusade, but it's right here. Thanks for posting this. I was asking if Doom was behind it but didn't see this comic.

And the X-men/Krakao didn't lift a finger against Doom when they discovered this. It took a crossover with the Fantastic Four for them to remember Doom is not their friend. But Wanda? Immediate execution is warranted.

[Iron Maiden]

So it states here that Doom was behind Wanda's act. I didn't see it in Childrens Crusade, but it's right here. Thanks for posting this. I was asking if Doom was behind it but didn't see this comic.

Nope..... Doom was not there when Wanda says "No More Mutants" It was all part of the conflict between her, Magneto and Pietro that lead to that.

[lowfyr]

True. Blaming Doom is not really working for this.
I am a little surprised that they did not use the Phoenix as a scapegoat and made up this "Life-Force" stuff.

[Tony Stark]

Nope..... Doom was not there when Wanda says "No More Mutants" It was all part of the conflict between her, Magneto and Pietro that lead to that.

Wanda and Wonder Man are stating it right there. I going by the comic shown here and it’s hinted at in Children’s Crusade. He didn’t have to be right next to her to manipulate her. We agree to disagree that’s all.

[Iron Maiden]

True. Blaming Doom is not really working for this.
I am a little surprised that they did not use the Phoenix as a scapegoat and made up this "Life-Force" stuff.

For real......

Doom was added to the narrative 5 years after Bendis wrote Disassembled and House of M. And even Heinberg gives Doom an out in his story and suggets that Doom is covering for her. It is a lame attempt to shift the blame from the toxic relationship between Wanda/Magneto/Pietro who were the main focus of House of M.

[MaximoffTrash]

Ultimately, it seems every poster here agrees that House of M is a bad story, and that Wanda depowering mutants is a bad thing.

What fans of Wanda and others seem to ask for is that this be swept under the rug citing other stuff, and that she still be treated as a hero regardless of it.

Okay, that's a fair ask. But again, people need to realize that Wanda's actions in House of M is an event of great significance in Marvel continuity while that's not the case with other characters whose misdeeds are cited here, not for the most part.

Because really, we are tired of her long absence and half-assed redemption arcs, and we are just not interested in that kind of stories anymore.
I am personally more irritated by her connections to the X-side than anything else, my mentality is just leave her be. Give her stories that have nothing to do with mutants like she had been for the most time of her existence. Pretend she doesn't exist or trash her all they want without actually dragging her into another shitstorm.

[Cruelrain]

XPac is Right, it has been official Stated as Canon that Wanda had a form of power that was not her own and after it was taken by Doom was not able to get it back or make more mutants as she originally planned. When she Had it she gave back to Rictor his mutant powers, after Doom took it it gave him Godlike powers for abit Until the X-Men and Avengers stopped him and Wanda was not able to make mutants on her own anymore cause of losing it.

Now if Children's Crusade is not enought, it was Offically Stated Doom did Tamper and Manipulated Wanda and her powers in other Comics after Children's Crusade. It was Known and stated by Wonderman in Uncanny Avengers #13, Vol.1;

Now if that is not enough either back during the AXIS event in 2014 in Avengers World #14 Doom after being reversed by the AXIS event to being good for a Short time Admited in manipulated Wanda as well;

By these Possession and/or Manipulation Stories with Doom are canon and amitted as well too by Doom, so it is the offical stated case in Canon by Marvel that that was what happen to Wanda.

But really the most important factor to take from The Possession/Manipulation story is are where to Show Wanda was a Good Person used in a Bad way and not in character(kind of like how many fans feel she was used for a time by Marvel Writers in the 2000s during this M-Day stories). The Wanda we she after thoses stories starting with Children's Crusade shows the character a she should be and trying despite having this outs not taking them and taking it still upon herself to set events right.

In Those Panels from Uncanny Avengers and other she still takes the Guilt onto herself not using the Manpulation as a crunch to say she does not have to do anything or help make up for Anything. Still she takes it upon herself and with Stories like Children's Crusade, AvX, Uncanny Avengers and Now Recently X-Men: Empyre still trys to make things right by the events of M-Day and that is what I admire her for.

Yeah it seems like the writers did try to reedem Wanda, This scans are all after Children Crussade and unless a new writer denies all this it still canon.

it's not the first time writers mess with their own storyline for the people that says Doom wasn't around during that period of time.

Wanda can still feel guilty even if she was manipulated, so far the Wanda in Hickman's current story does, let's see what happens next...

[Iron Maiden]

Yeah it seems like the writers did try to reedem Wanda, This scans are all after Children Crussade and unless a new writer denies all this it still canon.

it's not the first time writers mess with their own storyline for the people that says Doom wasn't around during that period of time.

Wanda can still feel guilty even if she was manipulated, so far the Wanda in Hickman's current story does, let's see what happens next...

I have to repeat though. Doom was added to the narrative 5 years after House of M's events. Even then, Heinberg leaves it very murky as to what Doom is responsible for. Wanda is very contrite and admits it her guilt and doesn't even go along with the others when they try to shift the blame.

[GenericUsername]

For real......

Doom was added to the narrative 5 years after Bendis wrote Disassembled and House of M. And even Heinberg gives Doom an out in his story and suggets that Doom is covering for her. It is a lame attempt to shift the blame from the toxic relationship between Wanda/Magneto/Pietro who were the main focus of House of M.

Well it's just like the stuff didn't make sense for Wanda either. Until they needed to change everything about her to make AD/HoM likely. Everything was round peg in square hole through all of this. I think anyone that can look at these stories based on how well they were done, instead of roleplaying like they are in the universe knows that all of this is just bad storytelling. Started with bad mandates. All to shock people into buying and reading. I had problems with the Doom link when Chthon is right there and waiting. She could have simply been fully possessed by him which would have given her much more of his power.

[XPac]

So it states here that Doom was behind Wanda's act. I didn't see it in Childrens Crusade, but it's right here. Thanks for posting this. I was asking if Doom was behind it but didn't see this comic.

It states that Doom was behind Wanda's power up, but not that he was directly behind the actual Decimation.

Even if you want to assume the worst of Doom and assume he was using Wanda for power all along, there was really no way he could have possibly anticipated Wanda wiping out mutants one day. That was more the possession of the Life Force than Doom, who was nowhere to be found at that point in the story.

You could try and argue Doom was indirectly responsible, as he clearly lost control over what was happening. Though my personal interetation of Childrens Cruasade (and I'm sure many will disagree) is that in the end Doom intentionally TRIED to fall on the sword for Wanda and take the blame on himself. Though most of the heroes there probably didn't buy it (even though I'm sure they wanted to). Again, just my interpretation.

86906_original.jpg

[Iron Maiden]

Well it's just like the stuff didn't make sense for Wanda either. Until they needed to change everything about her to make AD/HoM likely. Everything was round peg in square hole through all of this. I think anyone that can look at these stories based on how well they were done, instead of roleplaying like they are in the universe knows that all of this is just bad storytelling. Started with bad mandates. All to shock people into buying and reading. I had problems with the Doom link when Chthon is right there and waiting. She could have simply been fully possessed by him which would have given her much more of his power.

Exactly. It is unfortunate that when Marvel revamped their website, they have apparently jettisoned a ton of their older articles and interviews. ONes I had bookmarked before have come up not found, etc.

This website of doomfans makes reference to one of the now erased (or maybe archived out there?) interviews with Heinberg as the story was in progress. One of Heinberg's quotes is included in the post...

"I thought it would be interesting to tell a story where there were no clear-cut good guys and bad guys, a story where even Doctor Doom is a protagonist worthy of our sympathy". That plus the page I posted tells you what the writers purpose was to include Doom and the story and to also justify his idea to make it sort of a mixed up love story as a subplot to the main story of Wanda's redemption. It's too bad the writers that followed it mostly missed the point.

Heinberg hasn't done much for Marvel, if at all, since. He's usually good for a return to his Young Avengers and I think at one time that was in the work.

When these interview links started to move or disappear altogether, I started making copies of them. Here's one that occurs around issue #6

Marvel Interview: Allen Heinberg's Children's Crusade Sept 20 2011
From: Marvel

The Scarlet Witch changed everything.

She did it when she disassembled the Avengers.

She did it when she created the House of M.

She did it when she said “No more mutants.”

She’s about to do it again.

For the past year, AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN’S CRUSADE has chronicled the Scarlet Witch’s return in an epic adventure that has drawn in all of Earth’s Mightiest Heroes as well as the X-Men, X-Factor, Magneto, Doctor Doom and more. With the pivotal issue #7 on sale Wednesday, September 21, we’ve enlisted writer Allan Heinberg to revisit the critical events and major players, as well as discuss what will happen next.

We’ve spent a week looking back at the pivotal players and events of AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN’S CRUSADE, but the time for talk has almost come to a close. Tomorrow, issue #7 hits stands and the landscape changes once again.

For a final time prior to the release of this latest chapter, writer Allan Heinberg took the time to enlighten us on his grand plan and what a certain group of mutant heroes who crashed the party at the end of last issue have in store.


Marvel.com: Where do the X-Men stand on the issue of The Scarlet Witch, particularly in contrast to the Avengers? How does their full involvement beginning with issue #7 change the tone of the story?

Allan Heinberg: At this point in the story, the X-Men assembled on the lawn of Avengers Mansion all share Cyclops' point of view: that The Scarlet Witch needs to be held accountable for her actions and brought to justice by the mutant community. But the Avengers have their own ideas about how to deal with Wanda, and those don't necessarily involve just handing her over to the X-Men and walking away. So, the X-Men's involvement obviously complicates an already complicated situation and provokes these heroes to act in ways that aren't necessarily very heroic, all in the name of justice. But is it justice? Or is it revenge?

Marvel.com: What position will the X-Men’s arrival place Magneto in? How tough are things going to get for him?

Allan Heinberg: Magneto is already in an impossible position. He has to choose between his two families: his biological family—Wanda and Pietro—and the X-Men, who've become more of a family than he's ever had. And his position in the Marvel Universe is going to be determined by the choice he makes.

Marvel.com: What is Wanda’s immediate goal?

Allan Heinberg: Wanda's only goal is to restore the mutants whose lives she destroyed at the end of House of M. And she'll do whatever she has to, to make that happen.

Marvel.com: How unified are the Avengers right now?

Allan Heinberg: The Avengers are by no means unified on the subject of Wanda Maximoff. They all want to find her and contain her, but then the question becomes, "What do we do with her once we've found her?" Wolverine and Captain America have already bumped heads on the subject. And I think most of the team is similarly divided. Everyone agrees that The Scarlet Witch is a threat, but how do you go about neutralizing that threat? Everyone wants to hold Wanda accountable for what she's done, but how? What is the punishment for those crimes?



Marvel.com: Will X-Factor prove to be—pardon the pun—a factor or are they observers here?

Allan Heinberg: The members of X-Factor are as divided as the Avengers and X-Men. Madrox has already stated his point of view on the subject: he'd just as soon leave Wanda to her fate, whatever that is. But Wanda has just restored Rictor, so Rictor is going to be invested in helping Wanda do the same for all the other de-powered mutants. Either way, the X-Factor team now finds itself in the middle of a volatile conflict between the X-Men and the Avengers. And this X-Factor team has always been very independent. Madrox and the others are not going to start taking orders from Cyclops.

Marvel.com: How will Doctor Doom find his way back into this story?

Allan Heinberg: Doom's love for Wanda will soon put him at the center of the story, right between the warring Avengers and the X-Men.

Marvel.com: Now that Wiccan has found his mother, what does he want? How about Speed?

Allan Heinberg: Wiccan's goal was not only to find his mother, but to help her reclaim her position as a hero in the Marvel Universe. He still doesn't believe The Scarlet Witch could have been responsible for the events of "Avengers: Disassembled" and House of M and so he's determined to find out what really happened; how someone as good and as compassionate as The Scarlet Witch could suddenly turn on her friends, her family, and her entire species. At this point in the story, though, Wiccan is mostly concerned with helping Wanda stay alive. As for Speed, he's been very skeptical about the idea of The Scarlet Witch being his mother, but after the events of CRUSADE #6, I think Speed's feelings about Wanda and the lengths he's willing to go to, to protect her are going to surprise his teammates—and himself.

Marvel.com: With all the big action taking place, will we get to see more development as far as the triangle between Stature, Iron Lad and Vision?

Allan Heinberg: Absolutely, the Stature-Vision-Iron Lad triangle explodes in CRUSADE #8 and is finally resolved in #9.

Marvel.com: What will Scott Lang’s role be moving forward?

Allan Heinberg: You'll have to keep reading to find out if Scott Lang actually survives the crusade.

Marvel.com: They’ve been somewhat off to the side for a while now, but do Patriot and Hawkeye still have parts to play in this story?

Allan Heinberg: The tension between Hawkeye and Patriot which began in CRUSADE #2 comes to a head in #7, and the outcome is devastating.

Marvel.com: What else can you tease for the final portion of this series and its fallout?

Allan Heinberg: CRUSADE #7 sparks a war between the Avengers and the X-Men over the fate of The Scarlet Witch. It also reveals the fate of the de-powered mutants, the secret origin of Wanda's latent reality-altering powers, and the hidden truth about her involvement in "Avengers: Disassembled" and House of M. It also features the debut of a powerful new super hero in the Marvel Universe.

Issue #8 tells the story of the final, bloody battle between the Avengers, the X-Men, and X-Factor over the fate of The Scarlet Witch, whose tragic outcome will be the death of an Avenger.

Issue #9 deals with the aftermath of that death and the loss of several other heroes, as well. It sets the stage for the next big Marvel Universe event and spins the Young Avengers off in a brand-new direction.

[Iron Maiden]

It states that Doom was behind Wanda's power up, but not that he was directly behind the actual Decimation.

Even if you want to assume the worst of Doom and assume he was using Wanda for power all along, there was really no way he could have possibly anticipated Wanda wiping out mutants one day. That was more the possession of the Life Force than Doom, who was nowhere to be found at that point in the story.

You could try and argue Doom was indirectly responsible, as he clearly lost control over what was happening. Though my personal interetation of Childrens Cruasade (and I'm sure many will disagree) is that in the end Doom intentionally TRIED to fall on the sword for Wanda and take the blame on himself. Though most of the heroes there probably didn't buy it (even though I'm sure they wanted to). Again, just my interpretation.

86906_original.jpg

Totally agree with this. It's a bit coincidental to this but Christopher Cantwelll the writer of Doctor Doom series made some interesting points that are relevant to why Doom would be willing to "fall on the sword" for Wanda.
In the interview Cantwell says "To me, Doom is both Dr. Frankenstein and the Monster. He is able to love, but he feels he is unable to be loved. "

Let me be clear. I think the Wanda was totally wronged in what Bendis wrote in Disassembled House of M. But let's not throw Doom under the bus to accomplish that when it obviously was not Heinberg's intent.

[Tony Stark]

It states that Doom was behind Wanda's power up, but not that he was directly behind the actual Decimation.

Even if you want to assume the worst of Doom and assume he was using Wanda for power all along, there was really no way he could have possibly anticipated Wanda wiping out mutants one day. That was more the possession of the Life Force than Doom, who was nowhere to be found at that point in the story.

You could try and argue Doom was indirectly responsible, as he clearly lost control over what was happening. Though my personal interetation of Childrens Cruasade (and I'm sure many will disagree) is that in the end Doom intentionally TRIED to fall on the sword for Wanda and take the blame on himself. Though most of the heroes there probably didn't buy it (even though I'm sure they wanted to). Again, just my interpretation.

86906_original.jpg

Say's right there he manipulated her and gave her the power. To me that's proof enough. We just agree to disagree.

[Iron Maiden]

Say's right there he manipulated her and gave her the power. To me that's proof enough. We just agree to disagree.

This is the panel that comes shortly after where Heinberg shows his cards about Doom

This is what refer to Doom choosing to fall on his sword to protect Wanda. More importantly, Doom didn't manipulate into Wanda to saying "No more mutants".....that was caused all the family drama with Magneto and Pietro in House of M.