Why REBIRTH failed and how it may ultimately lead to the end of DC as we know it

[batnbreakfast]

I'm nor sure if i would include Jonah Hex there, before the reboot the Palmiotti/Gray run reached 70 issues, after the New 52 the continued as usual but with another title (All Star Western) and a half hearted attempt to tied with the Court of Owls. Far i know thought, Hex hasn't appeared on anything since 2014. Thougth i guest that you could argue that he recieved a good sale boost with the reboot?.

All Star Western wasn't as great as Jonah Hex but still better than most of the output. In general Jonah is made for OGN much like European Western Comics. Just put one out once a year and I could see steady sales. Same goes for John Constantine.

[Restingvoice]

What are the best Rebirth comics? I am in a comic reading mood for the first time since the Covid emerged and am actually willing to give Rebirth a fair shot. The only Rebirth comics I've read are Mister Miracle (which, is an out of continuity story) and the initial Superman run that introduced the Super kid.

Wonder Woman

[Pinsir]

Wonder Woman

Oh, sorry, yeah, I forgot that Rucka's Wonder Woman was Rebirth. I have read that title too (I'd say that it is one of the better Post-Crisis runs).

[j9ac9k]

"DC as we know it" ends all the time - its planned obsolescence is part of the marketing strategy. Everything changes every 5 years so they can relaunch and get a big sales spike. We'll always go for that carrot...

But if you're talking about doing away with monthlies and a complete restructuring of how DC sells comics, etc.. it would take more than any creative decision like the Rebirth relaunch to instigate that large a paradigm shift, imo. I think it would have to be more about the industry as a whole or the marketplace.

[Restingvoice]

Oh, sorry, yeah, I forgot that Rucka's Wonder Woman was Rebirth. I have read that title too (I'd say that it is one of the better Post-Crisis runs).

Hmm... New Super-Man

[cranger]

The whole point of Rebirth was basically to try and write a story in canon that explained why so much of DC's history was erased and Rebirth was going to add back that history, but no one at DC knew what that meant. It ended up becoming a giant mess and writers were left on their own to figure it out. So yes, they did say that erased history was coming back, but I (and DC too) never said that the pre-New 52 canon was going to come back as it was. Just that the history was going to come back. Like the original Titans or the JSA. In the next part of my post I explained that what Rebirth in part ended up being was a retelling of that pre-New 52 history that the fans wanted back, but it wasn't the same as the pre-New 52 stories. It became confusing, especially when you also have characters like Wally and Superman be fully aware and have their memories of the old pre-New 52 canon that are also story points in their ongoing stories.

A good example is the Titans series. Rebirth gave Dick's Titans their history back which got erased with the New 52. It now established that they were a team that formed when they were teens just like the Pre-New 52 team, but no one knew what that meant. No one knew who all was part of this now reestablished history or what stories were part of it. So the writers were left trying to figure it out. So we ended up getting a story like Lazarus Contract which was them trying to retell how the Judas Contract story happened in this new messy New 52/Rebirth continuity that no one clearly understood. So it is DC bringing back their erased history, but also completely rewriting it.

Fair enough. While I still argue that describing it as bringing back the lost history is too loaded and only leads to people who literally wanting the pre FP continuity back latch on to false hopes, I do agree with most of the rest, particularly the Superman confusion (I never got up to the whole merging story so I still don't know what is up with him). However, even the issues with inconsistencies in Titans are partly due to readers mistakenly believing the restored memories were pre FP and partly due to people who are still trying to squeeze the whole pre FP continuity into 5 years. It really just needs to be looked at as its own story, but too many people went into looking for pre FP. Titans started out just fine. I dropped it before the LC crossover because I hate crossovers, but when I got back on it it read just fine still.

So I can see why those were problems, but those were just two stories among many relaunched books with Rebirth. Titans and Superman, no matter whether they had real or imagined problems, were not taking down the whole of the line.

I can point out more issues with Hickman's X-Men, from it not meshing with past stories to current writers not all being on the same page with

[kingaliencracker]

Hmmm. I would say the characters that actually benefitted from the reboot were:
Superman
Wonder Woman
Aquaman
Supergirl
Red Hood
Justice League
And a bunch of C-Listers actually got a push during the New 52 like Resurrection Man and Jonah Hex. But the entire Titans/TT generation got completely screwed over, a ton of POC characters got dumped, and DC’s two longest running and most successful series (Morrison Batman and Johns GL) got completely screwed over.

I don't know if Superman benefited from the reboot. Morrison's Action run was interesting if uninspired and certainly not to the level of All Star. The main Superman title was pretty much an unmitigated disaster due to the writers and artists of that title having no clue about the new backstory for Superman (George Perez has famously said he couldn't get an answer as to whether the Kents were still alive). Pak's run was solid (not bad is the best I can say about it), but I didn't feel like I was truly reading Superman until the New 52 Superman "perished" and Prime Superman took his place.

I don't see how Green Lantern got screwed over seeing as all that continuity remained in-tact in the New 52. Zero Year should never have replaced Year One in Batman's continuity, so I'll agree with you on that.

[Aahz]

Zero Year should never have replaced Year One in Batman's continuity, so I'll agree with you on that.

Imo it doesn't really have much effect on the Batman stories set in present day, which origin story is the canonic one.

[Digifiend]

Hmm... New Super-Man

Yeah, New Super-Man, Green Lanterns (which stars Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz), Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps (which features Hal, John, Guy and Kyle), and The Flash would be my recommendations. Flash and New Super-Man need to be read concurrently, because Avery Ho debuts in Flash, joins New Super-Man's Justice League of China, then goes back to the Flash when New Super-Man is cancelled.

[kingaliencracker]

Fair enough. While I still argue that describing it as bringing back the lost history is too loaded and only leads to people who literally wanting the pre FP continuity back latch on to false hopes, I do agree with most of the rest, particularly the Superman confusion (I never got up to the whole merging story so I still don't know what is up with him). However, even the issues with inconsistencies in Titans are partly due to readers mistakenly believing the restored memories were pre FP and partly due to people who are still trying to squeeze the whole pre FP continuity into 5 years. It really just needs to be looked at as its own story, but too many people went into looking for pre FP. Titans started out just fine. I dropped it before the LC crossover because I hate crossovers, but when I got back on it it read just fine still.

So I can see why those were problems, but those were just two stories among many relaunched books with Rebirth. Titans and Superman, no matter whether they had real or imagined problems, were not taking down the whole of the line.

I can point out more issues with Hickman's X-Men, from it not meshing with past stories to current writers not all being on the same page with

If we're to believe interviews, then Johns had to be dragged in kicking & screaming to do the Rebirth special (that's hyperbole of course but he's stated that he initially turned it down or at the very least was extremely reluctant to do it).

My guess is he was told that they were setting up the Watchmen characters and Doctor Manhattan specifically to be responsible for The New 52, and all the nostalgia bits were completely added by Johns. In the interviews I've heard and read with Dan Didio, he was always moving forward in his head with stories and wasn't a stickler for continuity so I doubt he was keen on the stuff Johns added.

[skyvolt2000]

I don't see how Green Lantern got screwed over seeing as all that continuity remained in-tact in the New 52. Zero Year should never have replaced Year One in Batman's continuity, so I'll agree with you on that.

At one point in New 52 all the Latnerns (except jessica and Simon) were leading some book. Along with Lafreeze & Sinestro.

Then came the axing of the GLC mini and another one with Guy shoehorned in it.

Then Rebirth saw Simon and Jessica lead a GL book and serve in JL.

Then came Hal and TGLC-which as the former DC employed artist state was a HAL book. Which he made clear to John Stewart fans. So they were alienated before the first issue and already frustrated based on other issues during new 52 & DCYou.
Sales came out and Jessica/Simon book at various time outperformed Hal & TGLC be it floppies or trades. John fans got lectured on this forum about not supporting the book and THAT didn't end too well.

New 52 took everything from John-his wife and his family outisde of mom-he had siblings including one who might be a certain person's ex-wife. So he did not benefit. Then again they wanted him killed off anyway.

[Laufeyson]

What are the best Rebirth comics? I am in a comic reading mood for the first time since the COVID emerged and am actually willing to give Rebirth a fair shot. The only Rebirth comics I've read are Mister Miracle (which, is an out of continuity story) and the initial Superman run that introduced the Super kid.

Batman, Mister Miracle, Deathstroke, Superman, Bug Forager.

Batman: Tom King run is really entertaining before the bat-cat fiasco, the first few arcs from I am Gotham until the marriage is really good and one of the best written Batman ever.
Mister Miracle: Tom King write a very unusual comic for the Fourth World, but it's really good and I can't recommend this book enough. The second-best book of 2018-2019 (the first is Slott and Allred's Silver Surfer - Is there anything that beat this book).
Deathstroke: The most consistent run of Rebirth. Not that good, but not that bad too.
New-Superman: This book is much much better than the main titles, read it.
Bug Forage: The adventure of Bug written by the Allreds. It's guaranteed to be hip and good. Really recommended.

The other thing that I recommend, but not that consistent or as good as above.
Doom Patrol, Cave Carson has Interstellar and Cybernetic Eyes, Wonder Woman (only read Rucka's arc the rest is pretty much garbage), and Doomsday Clock.

[j9ac9k]

...I don't see how Green Lantern got screwed over seeing as all that continuity remained in-tact in the New 52...

Just a side note, but Green Lantern continuity stayed the same and was unaltered by the first "Crisis" too - the story just continued without a relaunch or revised history like the Trinity. It became "The Green Lantern Corps", but they didn't miss a beat in terms of continuity. But that's neither here nor there...

[manwhohaseverything]

but I didn't feel like I was truly reading Superman until the New 52 Superman "perished" and Prime Superman took his place.

I had the reverse problem the main superman was so boring to me that i didn't notice i was reading and started reading the books for some other character. Namely the kid, jon kent.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Oh, sorry, yeah, I forgot that Rucka's Wonder Woman was Rebirth. I have read that title too (I'd say that it is one of the better Post-Crisis runs).

Have you ever read any of Rucka’s original Wonder Woman run?