Why REBIRTH failed and how it may ultimately lead to the end of DC as we know it

[SiegePerilous02]

Hmmm. I would say the characters that actually benefitted from the reboot were:
Superman
Wonder Woman
Aquaman
Supergirl
Red Hood
Justice League
And a bunch of C-Listers actually got a push during the New 52 like Resurrection Man and Jonah Hex. But the entire Titans/TT generation got completely screwed over, a ton of POC characters got dumped, and DC’s two longest running and most successful series (Morrison Batman and Johns GL) got completely screwed over.

I'd say on paper, the idea of a reboot for Superman and Wonder Woman was definitely a sound one at the time. They'd been bogged down by so much contradictory continuity that accumulated since the first Crisis, and WW in particular could benefit from losing stuff like Amazons Attack and all the crap with Donna. But the main issue for both was the lack of planning, and for WW ideas that clashed with the core ideas that went into the characters (power from a man, villainous Amazons). Superman at least got the Morrison Action run which is still the best run he's had in recent memory so the exercise was worth it just for that, but still the overall planning was bad and it fizzled out quickly. But it actually still embraced the core of the character in ways Azz's WW didn't. So I'm the opposite with Rebirth: Rebirth Superman bores me senseless, but I love Rucka's groundwork for WW. It was a more streamlined version of post-Crisis and Bronze Age stuff that leaves her a better foundation than she's had in a while.

In my ideal world, we would have gotten Morrison's Superman and Rucka's Wonder Woman in a better planned New 52, both lasting longer than they did and both being better planned out with coordination between titles and follow ups. Now both are in just as bad of shape as they've always been

[Zero Hunter]

Just a side note, but Green Lantern continuity stayed the same and was unaltered by the first "Crisis" too - the story just continued without a relaunch or revised history like the Trinity. It became "The Green Lantern Corps", but they didn't miss a beat in terms of continuity. But that's neither here nor there...

Hal did a revised history makeover with the Emerald Dawn mini series though after the Green Lantern Corps book ended.

[EmeraldGladiator]

I don't know why it failed but I am sad that it did. I felt that Geoff had a vision of DC that closely matched mine. Bringing Wally back would also bring back the Wolfman era Titans history, ie Vic was a Titan. Saturn Girl is the Saturn girl from the Silver age that has the most history/charcter development (mother of the twins/wife of Garth), the Johns version of the JSA would return, and of course Geoff was the writer of Green Lantern's greatest run ever. In the end all that was promised was never delivered. No Wolfman Titans, no retrobood Legion, just a Bendis reboot, no real JSA book to speak of and Hal is regulated to a Morrison feverdream that will only last but so many issues.

[Pinsir]

Batman, Mister Miracle, Deathstroke, Superman, Bug Forager.

Batman: Tom King run is really entertaining before the bat-cat fiasco, the first few arcs from I am Gotham until the marriage is really good and one of the best written Batman ever.
Mister Miracle: Tom King write a very unusual comic for the Fourth World, but it's really good and I can't recommend this book enough. The second-best book of 2018-2019 (the first is Slott and Allred's Silver Surfer - Is there anything that beat this book).
Deathstroke: The most consistent run of Rebirth. Not that good, but not that bad too.
New-Superman: This book is much much better than the main titles, read it.
Bug Forage: The adventure of Bug written by the Allreds. It's guaranteed to be hip and good. Really recommended.

The other thing that I recommend, but not that consistent or as good as above.
Doom Patrol, Cave Carson has Interstellar and Cybernetic Eyes, Wonder Woman (only read Rucka's arc the rest is pretty much garbage), and Doomsday Clock.

Thanks for the reply, I'll check out Bug Forager first.

Have you ever read any of Rucka’s original Wonder Woman run?

I have. I'm not a huge fan of his original run, its very episodic with no great pay off at the end (the OMAC stuff comes out of nowhere. I don't blame Rucka obviously, this was forced on him, but, it still harms the overall work). My favourite runs of the Post-Crisis period are Messner-Loebs and John Byrne because they have good pay off (and they're kind of weird).

[Factor]

I don't know why it failed but I am sad that it did. I felt that Geoff had a vision of DC that closely matched mine. Bringing Wally back would also bring back the Wolfman era Titans history, ie Vic was a Titan. Saturn Girl is the Saturn girl from the Silver age that has the most history/charcter development (mother of the twins/wife of Garth), the Johns version of the JSA would return, and of course Geoff was the writer of Green Lantern's greatest run ever. In the end all that was promised was never delivered. No Wolfman Titans, no retrobood Legion, just a Bendis reboot, no real JSA book to speak of and Hal is regulated to a Morrison feverdream that will only last but so many issues.

I will agree that I would have been way happier if those stuff actually happened. Those are some of the main things I think are missing in DC (especially the NTT and JSA. I don't hate the current LOSH but I agree the retroboot version would make much more sense than yet another reboot).

[CTTT]

From 2000-2011 before Spew 52, what were some of the storylines going on in the various comics and why was there a need or desire to have Spew 52 in the first place?

[Prime]

In retrospect, yeah it did. At the very least the New 52 state was clean.

[kingaliencracker]

From 2000-2011 before Spew 52, what were some of the storylines going on in the various comics and why was there a need or desire to have Spew 52 in the first place?

The gist of it was that overall sales were dropping, Marvel was bought by Disney, and the new WB heads told Didio & Lee that they needed to do something to revitalize the brand.

[Sacred Knight]

From 2000-2011 before Spew 52, what were some of the storylines going on in the various comics and why was there a need or desire to have Spew 52 in the first place?

Sales fell to desperation levels, and in regards to history in particular, that decade was filled with retcons and shifts out the wazoo that they effectively broke that continuity altogether. And for the record I believe there is a link between the massive sales drop and the incoherency that continuity became.

[Batman Begins 2005]

What are the best Rebirth comics? I am in a comic reading mood for the first time since the Covid emerged and am actually willing to give Rebirth a fair shot. The only Rebirth comics I've read are Mister Miracle (which, is an out of continuity story) and the initial Superman run that introduced the Super kid.

Super Sons, Batman Annual #3 and Batman Annual #4.

Said the following in a different thread. Give me the New 52 Batman books to those in Rebirth. Really didn't like King's Batman.

[Restingvoice]

From 2000-2011 before Spew 52, what were some of the storylines going on in the various comics and why was there a need or desire to have Spew 52 in the first place?

At the top of my head
Flashpoint, Brightest Day, Rise of Arsenal
Batman Inc
Batman and Robin Reborn era, Gotham City Sirens
Final Crisis and friends
Countdown
2006 - 52, One Year Later, Damian Wayne's arrival
2005 - Infinite Crisis and friends
2003 - Geoff Johns Teen Titans
2000 - Batgirl Cassandra Cain
I forget the rest

[Laufeyson]

From 2000-2011 before Spew 52, what were some of the storylines going on in the various comics and why was there a need or desire to have Spew 52 in the first place?

If my memories serve right: DC 1000 Million, Identity Crisis, Seven Soldiers, Infinite Crisis, Sinestro Corps War, Blackest Day, Brightest Day, Final Crisis, 52, Countdown. That's all I could think and I don't count anything from Batman because it will be too many. But, I believe it's because the sales went down and Marvel starts to dominate with various book whether it's Brubaker's Cap, Bendis' Avengers, BND's Spider-Man and Hickman's FF. So, at that WB start to take control and told Didio and Lee to do something to revitalize the brand which led us to Flashpoint. Flashpoint too is initially a Flash-only arc in the same line as Sinestro Corps War and Blackest Night. But, because of the mandate, it becomes the mess that we saw today.

[krazijoe]

Nothing wrong with taking a change, but everyone has to be on the same page. Once everyone started deviating from the plan it starts to fall apart. Which is what we had, if people want to deviate then move them to Elseworlds but keep the strategic world intact.

[Vordan]

I don't know if Superman benefited from the reboot. Morrison's Action run was interesting if uninspired and certainly not to the level of All Star. The main Superman title was pretty much an unmitigated disaster due to the writers and artists of that title having no clue about the new backstory for Superman (George Perez has famously said he couldn't get an answer as to whether the Kents were still alive). Pak's run was solid (not bad is the best I can say about it), but I didn't feel like I was truly reading Superman until the New 52 Superman "perished" and Prime Superman took his place.

I don't see how Green Lantern got screwed over seeing as all that continuity remained in-tact in the New 52. Zero Year should never have replaced Year One in Batman's continuity, so I'll agree with you on that.

That’s fine but Pre-Flashpoint Superman was trash imo and had been for a long time. New Krypton which was designed to be a Sinestro Corps War revitalization imploded, and then we got the abysmal “Reign of the Doomsdays” and “Grounded”. Johns and Busiek had good runs but both were brief and before that the Superman titles were some of the weakest stuff DC was publishing. Sales for the Superline were in the toilet. I blame a lot of this on Berenza, dude was one of the worst editors DC has ever had, that Didio, Lee, and Harras gave him the Superbooks as a “punishment” is just insulting.

The New 52 got people buying Superman again. We got a Superman that did cool stuff and wasn’t written as an out of touch uncool retro character. A Superman who was more of an older brother than a Superdad or Supercop. I enjoyed that while it lasted although what potential it had was ruined by editorial mandates.

I loved Rebirth as it was happening because New 52 Superman outside of Morrison and Pak eventually became just as trashy as Pre-Flashpoint, but I’ve become more critical of Superman Rebirth as the year’s go on. Jurgens was mediocre from start to finish, his last time travel arc in particular was awful and full of boring cliches. Tomasi was extremely uneven, with some arcs being enjoyable (Son of Superman, Trials of the Super-Sons, Black Dawn, Bizarroverse) and some being absolute crap (Multiplicity which wasted a Muktiversal Superman team up on a godawful OC that was just as bad as Bendis’s Rogal, Hopes & Fears which was full of some of the worst filler I’ve ever read, and Imperious Lex which was full of New Gods jobbing and undoing Lex’s character development). A lot of people feel the same as you, as long as it was “their” Superman they overlooked just how bad a lot of the stories were. Hell at the time I overlooked how bad a lot of the stories were. But it was not a Golden Age at all for the character, Tomasi was a better writer of Jon than Clark.

[Masterff]

Actually I think the following:

1. PROBLEM:
Timeline etc. is to complicated...
It would have been better to go simply back to a timeline which consists of 99% Pre-Flashpoint with some inspiration of NEW52+Rebirth.
For example let Jon being born shortly after Conner arrived in Reign of Supermen.
So Conner and Jon can co-exist

2. TIMS GENERATION:
It would have been MUCH MUCH MUCH better if DC would have brought back Tim,Cassie,Bart,Conner with Raven,Miss Martian....(the former TT Line-Up) and let them take new Code-Names and a new Team-Name.
And make them more independent-they seemed to be just Fanboys/Fangirls during Rebirth..

3. DAMIANS GENERATION:
It would have been MUCH MUCH better if Damian,Jon,Iris West II,Teen Lantern...would have become the new Young Justice.
If you look at SuperSons than you see how YJ would have worked with them..

4. NIGHTWING and WALLY WEST

5. DONT BRINGING SUPPORT CHARACTERS LIKE LIAN HARPER etc. back

6. TITANS