Why REBIRTH failed and how it may ultimately lead to the end of DC as we know it

[sifighter]

I think when it comes to DC problems is that they actually really have to acknowledge that reboots and continuity changes took place for their stories to make sense which can make following the history a bit rough.

Cause here is the thing when it comes to Rebirth(which I really liked), is that part of it was still dependent on the new 52 or mixed old continuity into the new 52 continuity. Yes it was about returning past storylines, but they also understood that they couldn’t full stop get rid of the new 52 because characters and events that happened are still referenced or existing. Whole new characters who are still in the comics today came directly from the New 52, certain characters still have their new 52 stories lead into Rebirth, and certain characters origins or starting points are now completely different because of the New 52.

Which fine we want to keep the new 52 readers but do you have any idea how complicated this is. Just try recommending Flash to someone:

“Okay you want to read the new 52 run of the flash, that stays on until Rebirth which will then start a whole new #1, now in Rebirth I know you know Wally West but that’s actually Wally West the second, here you are going to meet the original Wally West. Who is he? Well he was the first kid Flash and then Flash for 20 some years...huh? Oh yeah I know Barry is the Flash, but so is Wally. When did that happen? In the 1980’s Crisis on Infinite earth when Barry died...but Barry came back later. Why is this the first your hearing about this? Because Flashpoint rebooted everything, and got rid of Wally but now he’s back. Yes that does mean you are reading an altered continuity that is about to reference stories you never heard of ranging from the mid to late 1980’s all the way until about 2010.”

[iron chimp]

I think fundamentally it doesnt make a difference what they do. The size of the market for the books they publish has been same size for 20 years now. Its just plateaued. Dc and marvel have tried God knows how many different things over last 20 years and all they are doing is swopping readers between them not adding more.

Its up to them to try different genres, writers etc. But they dont want to do that because they are so hellbent on using their own 'ip' which 20 years of wider readers have been entirely indifferent to. They are just stuck in a loop of their own making

[skyvolt2000]

Which fine we want to keep the new 52 readers but do you have any idea how complicated this is. Just try recommending Flash to someone:

“Okay you want to read the new 52 run of the flash, that stays on until Rebirth which will then start a whole new #1, now in Rebirth I know you know Wally West but that’s actually Wally West the second, here you are going to meet the original Wally West. Who is he? Well he was the first kid Flash and then Flash for 20 some years...huh? Oh yeah I know Barry is the Flash, but so is Wally. When did that happen? In the 1980’s Crisis on Infinite earth when Barry died...but Barry came back later. Why is this the first your hearing about this? Because Flashpoint rebooted everything, and got rid of Wally but now he’s back. Yes that does mean you are reading an altered continuity that is about to reference stories you never heard of ranging from the mid to late 1980’s all the way until about 2010.”

How about this to tell that person-

You are free to pick which ever era of Flash you want to read. Don't worry about what fits and doesn't fits.
This is a mess now because former DC employees with agendas that had ZERO to do with business or sales wanted everything their way despite who did or did not sell.

You have two Wallys because the first one wasn't a favorite of management despite holding a book for 20 years.
You have 10 Earth lanterns because someone didn't care for that black male one and made a bigger mess.
A ton of folks from Black Lightning's kids to Cassandra Cain vanished because someone didn't like them.

View these books like the Simpsons, Star Trek, South Park, Dr Who, Archie and PBS's Arthur-where stuff FOREVER contradicts each other. Yes Arthur-where the final episode (getting ready to enter 4th grade) aired back in season 5.
Same with Bart heading to the 5th grade.
How do time lords not run into their former versions when going in time.
Star Trek Discovery Klingons versus OG Star Trek Klingons versus Enterprise Klingons.
We won't talk of Abrams Trek with Kirk's Dad's ship that was still active in Next Generation.
Or that mystery Enterprise from Star Trek the Motion Picture.

[kingaliencracker]

How about this to tell that person-

You are free to pick which ever era of Flash you want to read. Don't worry about what fits and doesn't fits.
This is a mess now because former DC employees with agendas that had ZERO to do with business or sales wanted everything their way despite who did or did not sell.

You have two Wallys because the first one wasn't a favorite of management despite holding a book for 20 years.
You have 10 Earth lanterns because someone didn't care for that black male one and made a bigger mess.
A ton of folks from Black Lightning's kids to Cassandra Cain vanished because someone didn't like them.

View these books like the Simpsons, Star Trek, South Park, Dr Who, Archie and PBS's Arthur-where stuff FOREVER contradicts each other. Yes Arthur-where the final episode (getting ready to enter 4th grade) aired back in season 5.
Same with Bart heading to the 5th grade.
How do time lords not run into their former versions when going in time.
Star Trek Discovery Klingons versus OG Star Trek Klingons versus Enterprise Klingons.
We won't talk of Abrams Trek with Kirk's Dad's ship that was still active in Next Generation.
Or that mystery Enterprise from Star Trek the Motion Picture.

Just going to point out that we got Kyle Rayner because, at one point, someone didn't care for the Hal Jordan version. I don't see race having anything to do with it - DC has been going back-and-forth with the Green Lantern mythos since the 80's.

[Bad Witch]

I think it's becoming increasingly clear that if johns is not in control he will sabotage things. Either put him in charge or get rid of him.

[blunt_eastwood]

I think it's becoming increasingly clear that if johns is not in control he will sabotage things. Either put him in charge or get rid of him.

I'm out of the loop. What did he sabotage?

[Bad Witch]

I'm out of the loop. What did he sabotage?

All that's been proven is he sabotaged the dceu because Nolan chose Snyder and goyers take on superman and he actively worked against it. Seeing as he would do that I don't think it's far fetched to assume he did the same on the books

[SiegePerilous02]

All that's been proven is he sabotaged the dceu because Nolan chose Snyder and goyers take on superman and he actively worked against it. Seeing as he would do that I don't think it's far fetched to assume he did the same on the books

That take sabotaged itself. Can we let this myth go already?

Wonder Woman and Aquaman are doing well, and he had a hand in both of those.

[manwhohaseverything]

That take sabotaged itself. Can we let this myth go already?

Wonder Woman and Aquaman are doing well, and he had a hand in both of those.

To be fair, snyder also worked on these films in what capacity we don't know. All we know is snyder and johns were both credited. We don't really know what the equation is behind the scene or politics .if these guys had such problems with each other or not is up in the air.Quite frankly, it doesn't matter. These shared universe movies with him are dead projects.

[SiegePerilous02]

To be fair, snyder also worked on these films in what capacity we don't know. All we know is snyder and johns were both credited. We don't really know what the equation is behind the scene or politics .if these guys had such problems with each other or not is up in the air.Quite frankly, it doesn't matter. These shared universe movies with him are dead projects.

Yes, the situation is chaotic all around and it's pretty moot.

But we have stuff like Wonder Woman where Patty Jenkins doesn't seem to have anything bad to say about either Snyder or Johns who both had a hand in it, So the latter deliberately sabotaging the former because it didn't line up with how he views Superman rings false. I don't think Johns had any involvement during pre-production of MoS and trying to get the project of the ground when Snyder and Nolan were chosen.

[blunt_eastwood]

All that's been proven is he sabotaged the dceu because Nolan chose Snyder and goyers take on superman and he actively worked against it. Seeing as he would do that I don't think it's far fetched to assume he did the same on the books

How did he sabotage it?

[skyvolt2000]

Just going to point out that we got Kyle Rayner because, at one point, someone didn't care for the Hal Jordan version. I don't see race having anything to do with it - DC has been going back-and-forth with the Green Lantern mythos since the 80's.

Hal Jordan was not slated to be killed off. John Stewart was and that writer refused and QUIT DC over it.

Hal was taken out of the picture and someone found a use for him as something else be it a villain or Spectre.

That was never an option with John Stewart. Who many view as a threat to Hal's popularity. Kyle was never viewed as that once Hal came back.

It's not by accident we had 2 new Lanterns by the guy many take or took issue with his treatment of John in Green Lantern books.

[SiegePerilous02]

Hal was taken out of the picture and someone found a use for him as something else be it a villain or Spectre.

That was never an option with John Stewart.

The Parallax and Spectre stuff is nothing to write home about, and not something John Stewart fans would ever be satisfied with for their favorite either.

[kingaliencracker]

Hal Jordan was not slated to be killed off. John Stewart was and that writer refused and QUIT DC over it.

Hal was taken out of the picture and someone found a use for him as something else be it a villain or Spectre.

That was never an option with John Stewart. Who many view as a threat to Hal's popularity. Kyle was never viewed as that once Hal came back.

It's not by accident we had 2 new Lanterns by the guy many take or took issue with his treatment of John in Green Lantern books.

Sorry friend, you're going to have to clean up your argument a bit.

If we're talking about Emerald Twilight, the end of it was always going to be the removal of Hal Jordan as Green Lantern and a replacement not John Stewart or Guy Gardner put in his place. This was going to be the case whether we got Gerard Jones' story or Ron Marz's story. So my point stands.

I don't think Green Lantern fans or even eventual fans of Kyle Rayner were satisfied with what happened with Hal, so I certainly don't believe John Stewart fans would have been happy with Stewart going the route of villain.

[Bruce Wayne]

From 2000-2011 before Spew 52, what were some of the storylines going on in the various comics and why was there a need or desire to have Spew 52 in the first place?

It was largely a means to boost comic sales to inaugurate the post-Levitz regime under Diane Nelson and to show how much better she could run things. Of course Jim Lee and Dan Didio used it as an opportunity to shape the DCnU in their image such as incorporating the Wildstorm characters, the no marriage rule, getting rid of the JSA, remaking Barbara into Batgirl. So in other words, it was largely a result of greed and ego and the end result satisfied no one with many of the revamps crippling the characters due to creative musical chairs on books as well as nepotism where people were fired/hired based on their association with management. Many of the revamps themselves lead to creative dead ends with the sales crashing and burning by the end of the DCYou.

You can pretty much lay the recent bloodbath at DC at the feet of management and their missteps during this era.