Rating and thoughts on Flash Rebirth (2009)

[Username taken]

I’m not talking about the lawsuit. I’m talking about when Just Some Guy, a black YouTube comic reviewer, criticized Waid’s Ignited for being pro terrorists and politically biased. Waid being the professional 58 year old man he is responded by attacking JSG and calling him a white supremacist. Yet you have no issue with Waid from what I can tell. Like just look through his twitter and anyone who disagrees with him he calls a one of the follow: Nazi, fascist, white supremacy, X-phobe and misogynist

I think what Waid says is disgusting too but I won’t say his writing is awful based on his personality but off what is inked on the paper

Comicsgate as a topic is completely banned here. It’s now viewed as a hate group.

I don’t mean to backseat moderate but the entire issue is very complicated and was a colossal problem here before serious changes were made to this site.

Hol was right to not want to discuss the topic.

[Shadowedeyes]

It's been awhile since I read it, but from what I remember it felt really average. A few good moments, some bad/dumb ones but nothing overly memorable other than the Flash/Superman one.

[Hol]

Comicsgate as a topic is completely banned here. It’s now viewed as a hate group.

I don’t mean to backseat moderate but the entire issue is very complicated and was a colossal problem here before serious changes were made to this site.

Hol was right to not want to discuss the topic.

Thanks for letting us know. I wasn't around here for that but I just don't feel comfortable talking about them and giving them any kind of oxygen.

Do you think the Waid stuff would fall under that umbrella? I only ask because maybe the YouTuber is a part of ComicsGate? I honestly don't know and don't want it to be a problem.

[Dboi2001]

I honestly never heard of that Waid stuff so I will look into it and get back to you. But I will say I am usually pretty cautious when listening to anything a YouTuber claims. And I doubt Mark Waid calls anyone he disagrees with those names. I'll look for some posts though and see. If you happen to have any of them available I would appreciate you saving me some work.

Well here is Just Some Guy talking about it with the tweet in the video. This isn’t the first time he’s done something like this. It’s pretty well known actually. Like when I looked up if I should read Waid’s flash the person asking specifically mentioned he didn’t want to support Waid because of his behavior. And if you have any doubt that Waid doesn’t call anyone who disagrees with him a bigot read Ignited. The main characters poison their teacher, burn down Alex Jones’ house, calls the police fascists and adopts the name Terror and are depicted as the good guys. Even in his captain America run he has Rogers act out of character lamenting how America has become corrupt. Like people thought Zack Snyder didn’t make Superman hopeful or optimistic enough but Waid takes it to a whole new level with Captain America who is suppose to be the embodiment of the American spirit

But like I said I won’t knock Waid down or say “I hate to admit that Waid is a good writer” because he is a damn good writer despite his views and behavior. But he isn’t hurting anybody (physically that is) so I’m not going to boycott him or anything like that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QvokbO8lZg

[Username taken]

Thanks for letting us know. I wasn't around here for that but I just don't feel comfortable talking about them and giving them any kind of oxygen.

Do you think the Waid stuff would fall under that umbrella? I only ask because maybe the YouTuber is a part of ComicsGate? I honestly don't know and don't want it to be a problem.

Yep, the Waid stuff definitely falls under it because he’s being sued by the one of the “founders” of comicsgate.

[Dboi2001]

Comicsgate as a topic is completely banned here. It’s now viewed as a hate group.

I don’t mean to backseat moderate but the entire issue is very complicated and was a colossal problem here before serious changes were made to this site.

Hol was right to not want to discuss the topic.

Well I’m not talking about comicsgate but thanks for the heads up. I was talking about Mark Waid’s behavior

[Dboi2001]

Ok so from the top...you don't see the difference here? When the star of the book is being made out to be the bestest and most important hero (and at others expense) compared to when the lead character is trying to live up to the memory of his dead uncle? It is like at a funeral in real life you talk about how great the person is but no one walks around praising them while they are around. It is just weird. You really don't see that? And no I don't want anyone to say Wally is the greatest Flash and created a legacy. I don't get why anyone would want to hear that about their favorite character. Weird ego thing maybe.

Wally made Barry out like a saint and the greatest flash. Even Jay admired Barry during the Wally era. So Barry being put in a pedestal isn’t new

You always knew certain characters would always come back. Superman? Cmon. Plus I am telling you the revolving door to heaven wasn't as big a thing back then. Now I feel like most DC characters have been dead...at least once. lol.

I guess you have a point. Still the idea Barry being dead as a permanent thing wasn’t solidified until TROBA. And I just don’t think icons like Barry should be killed off. If Superman is considered off limits I don’t see how Barry Allen shouldn’t be too. But I guess that’s just me

Yes they were just hanging out there. Max and Johnny were just chillen, trapped and FULLY aware of who they were and all their memories. So for some reason Barry lost all sense of self but Max and Johnny were just chillen and eating some pizza.

They were trapped in the negative speed force and they were losing their memories. Max thought he’d never be able to leave before Barry told him how much he meant to Bart.

Yeah religion does explain stuff and it makes it sound as silly as it is. You are not making a good point with religion trust me. DC's continuity makes more sense than most religion stories.

And you don’t think it’s silly to say the universe was once a dot and that dot then decided to explode and create the universe with its various laws and then amebas evolved into fish and then into people and somehow gained conscious thought without any guidance? Like when Flash of 2 worlds came out people thought the multiverse was sci fi nonsense now people believe that. And you described the speed force as a spiritual/religious thing not me

My point is there is a difference between mystery and vague. Things the the force from SW a and the speed force are vague. You can write something as mysterious or not completely comprehensible but there has to be obvious limits to them. The speed force and the force just began to fit the need of the story

[Hol]

Well here is Just Some Guy talking about it with the tweet in the video. This isn’t the first time he’s done something like this. It’s pretty well known actually. Like when I looked up if I should read Waid’s flash the person asking specifically mentioned he didn’t want to support Waid because of his behavior. And if you have any doubt that Waid doesn’t call anyone who disagrees with him a bigot read Ignited. The main characters poison their teacher, burn down Alex Jones’ house, calls the police fascists and adopts the name Terror and are depicted as the good guys. Even in his captain America run he has Rogers act out of character lamenting how America has become corrupt. Like people thought Zack Snyder didn’t make Superman hopeful or optimistic enough but Waid takes it to a whole new level with Captain America who is suppose to be the embodiment of the American spirit

But like I said I won’t knock Waid down or say “I hate to admit that Waid is a good writer” because he is a damn good writer despite his views and behavior. But he isn’t hurting anybody (physically that is) so I’m not going to boycott him or anything like that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QvokbO8lZg

This YouTuber is a ComicsGater and I’m done with this portion of our discussion.

[Dboi2001]

This YouTuber is a ComicsGater and I’m done with this portion of our discussion.

Alright that’s fine. I never heard JSG supporting comicsgate but all I know is name calling someone is never appropriate

[Cyberstrike]

edit: nevermind

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I can't speak for "non Hal Jordan fans". I am speaking for myself.

I know that Jay explained what he meant on the same page. Johns is being meta. I get it. Showcase #4 ushered in the silver age and brought superhero comics back to the forefront. Wildcat even says "Barry brought us all back even if he didn't know it" But Jay and Ted are telling readers, new and old, that Barry is the most important super duper Flash. Which is an odd move considering he wasn't the lead for the last 20 plus years. You think they wouldn't want to piss off current fans.

It is easy now for you to say Barry was always going to return. You weren't there. He was gone for 22 years almost. it seemed pretty forever at the time. Keep in mind this was a time where, in comics, the revolving door on heaven wasn't nearly as big a thing. There were certain characters deaths that were considered untouchable. So yes I really didn't think he would ever return. Although after Quiver and GL Rebirth I started to get a little worried.

No I am not surprised that Johns wrote both Rebirths. Plenty of writers have work I both love and dislike.


Ok so I am not a GL expert but wasn't Hals dad dead before GL rebirth? And a parent dying is sad but your worst enemy going back in time and killing your mom to get to you is TRAGIC. She was murdered, Hals dad died in a accident. You can say all you want that Noras death was meant to develop Thawne but I disagree.


midichlorians ARE silly. Just like people hanging in the speed force chatting it up is silly. Just like half of the stories in religion are silly. But yes a mysterious force that powers speedsters? Much cooler. I swear I cringe every time a regular person on the show or comic talks about the speed force. So dumb.

That’s because Barry kind of is. Jay came back because they revived the concept with Barry, if he didn’t Jay would have been a Sandman or even Alan Scott type who is lucky to get page time. Pretty much the entire mythology of Flash comes from the story Barry started. Wally? Can’t tell his story without Barry. He was Barry’s sidekick, he had the exact same origin, he is the nephew of Barry’s girlfriend, he became Flash because Wally died, and major parts of his run were specifically about living up to Barry and reflecting on Barry. Bart also is Barry’s grandson. Barry was put on a pedestal long before Rebirth and by that point it was kind of merited. He was important inside the stories and the meta history comparatively.

Jason Todd, Bucky, Hal, etc had came back before Barry. Barry was implied to be alive several times. In Return of Barry Allen the lighting bolt that saved Wally from Zoom is heavily implied to be Barry, Barry comes out of the speedforce to make an assist in Infinite Crisis. Barry is when returned briefly via time displacement in Rogue Wars. Once the Flash books started fumbling it was only a matter of time. In the 90’s I might have agreed when bold things were happening like Hal going bad, the GLC being gone, Jean Paul Valley as Bats, etc. But by the early to mid 2000’s things were retracting again and you could see that a lot of the experimentations were receding back. Even in Flash an effort to reimagine the old Rogues happened and giving Wally a Reverse Flash. It was very clear they were going back to older pastures and by that point Barry was inevitable.

Hal’s dad wasn’t dead until Emerald Dawn so after Crisis. I would argue the big difference is that Flash Rebirth treated it like a recent thing that was a result of Zoom screwing with the timeline and that Nora only “died” canonically very recently and until Flashpoint there was the possibility to change that. Then CW’s show ran with it and Manapaul kept it in his run and now it’s a thing.

[Lightning Rider]

Why do people thing Barry having a tragic backstory changes his character?

I've read a lot of Flash. I can tell you that Barry's dead mom is frequently cited whenever he's confronting a villain with some sort of tragedy, like Godspeed, or when he's teaming up with Batman, or when he's trying to relate to someone else about losing someone. It was true during several New 52 arcs (including a botched Zoom arc), and after a repireve, was also back after the Rebirth initiative. It's all over the show too. "I've lost so much....I've had a lot of pain in my life..." etc.

Even in Rebirth itself, Barry is given a bit of a hard-on-crime attitude implicitly attributed to his mother's murder. "Savitar is a murderer. He's guilty." Now there's a way to justify that choice for other reasons, but it was clear that this man was obsessed with his mother's case throughout his life as a young CSI.

Yeah that is the thing...I feel like the Barrys dead mom thing is never going to go away now...especially because of the shows success.

Right. I got behind on Flash in the last year or so and am only now catching up (though I might not pick the rest of Williamson's run since I'm thoroughly unimpressed with this nonsense about forces.) I walked into my local store and saw one of the most recent issues on display, and behold, the cover itself features someone talking about Barry's dead mom. Not really an incentive to continue reading for me. It has overshadowed everything for over a decade.

I agree with folks that say the story could have been saved by Barry being able to save Nora. I hope he gets tha closure one day. The killing definitely did make Thawne more menacing and personal villain. But I don't know if we'll get it. The show cemented it, the movie will continue to explore it. Every time mass audiences think "Flash", they think "sad brown-haired kid with a dead mom". Really pisses me off.

[Hol]

That’s because Barry kind of is. Jay came back because they revived the concept with Barry, if he didn’t Jay would have been a Sandman or even Alan Scott type who is lucky to get page time. Pretty much the entire mythology of Flash comes from the story Barry started. Wally? Can’t tell his story without Barry. He was Barry’s sidekick, he had the exact same origin, he is the nephew of Barry’s girlfriend, he became Flash because Wally died, and major parts of his run were specifically about living up to Barry and reflecting on Barry. Bart also is Barry’s grandson. Barry was put on a pedestal long before Rebirth and by that point it was kind of merited. He was important inside the stories and the meta history comparatively.

Jason Todd, Bucky, Hal, etc had came back before Barry. Barry was implied to be alive several times. In Return of Barry Allen the lighting bolt that saved Wally from Zoom is heavily implied to be Barry, Barry comes out of the speedforce to make an assist in Infinite Crisis. Barry is when returned briefly via time displacement in Rogue Wars. Once the Flash books started fumbling it was only a matter of time. In the 90’s I might have agreed when bold things were happening like Hal going bad, the GLC being gone, Jean Paul Valley as Bats, etc. But by the early to mid 2000’s things were retracting again and you could see that a lot of the experimentations were receding back. Even in Flash an effort to reimagine the old Rogues happened and giving Wally a Reverse Flash. It was very clear they were going back to older pastures and by that point Barry was inevitable.

Hal’s dad wasn’t dead until Emerald Dawn so after Crisis. I would argue the big difference is that Flash Rebirth treated it like a recent thing that was a result of Zoom screwing with the timeline and that Nora only “died” canonically very recently and until Flashpoint there was the possibility to change that. Then CW’s show ran with it and Manapaul kept it in his run and now it’s a thing.

I’m not saying Barry isn’t a very important character in the Flash mythos. But he’s not the most important. There is no most important in my opinion. All the stuff you say about Barry? All wouldn’t be possible without Jay Garrick. He’s the original. There would be no concept to revive without Jay. If Barry was the most important Flash character he never would have remained dead for over 20 years imo.

And yeah you can’t tell Wallys origin without a Barry but so what? If needed you could keep it super brief. Back in the day you didn’t have to know a lot about Abin Sur to explain Hal Jordan’s origin. They fleshed it out later. All you need to know for Wally is he was a kid sidekick and his mentor died. The “you can’t tell Wallys story without Barry” argument was never a solid argument for me for why Barry was more important or iconic. Didio used to say that. Scott Lang isn’t the original Ant Man and I betcha most people remember his name and not Hanks.

Jason Todd Bucky and Hal all came back a handful of years before Barry. I was talking about before that which why I mentioned getting nervous when Hal and Ollie came back.

[Hol]

I've read a lot of Flash. I can tell you that Barry's dead mom is frequently cited whenever he's confronting a villain with some sort of tragedy, like Godspeed, or when he's teaming up with Batman, or when he's trying to relate to someone else about losing someone. It was true during several New 52 arcs (including a botched Zoom arc), and after a repireve, was also back after the Rebirth initiative. It's all over the show too. "I've lost so much....I've had a lot of pain in my life..." etc.

Even in Rebirth itself, Barry is given a bit of a hard-on-crime attitude implicitly attributed to his mother's murder. "Savitar is a murderer. He's guilty." Now there's a way to justify that choice for other reasons, but it was clear that this man was obsessed with his mother's case throughout his life as a young CSI.



Right. I got behind on Flash in the last year or so and am only now catching up (though I might not pick the rest of Williamson's run since I'm thoroughly unimpressed with this nonsense about forces.) I walked into my local store and saw one of the most recent issues on display, and behold, the cover itself features someone talking about Barry's dead mom. Not really an incentive to continue reading for me. It has overshadowed everything for over a decade.

I agree with folks that say the story could have been saved by Barry being able to save Nora. I hope he gets tha closure one day. The killing definitely did make Thawne more menacing and personal villain. But I don't know if we'll get it. The show cemented it, the movie will continue to explore it. Every time mass audiences think "Flash", they think "sad brown-haired kid with a dead mom". Really pisses me off.

Part of me still hopes that somehow he will still save her on the show. I stopped watching but I’d tune in for that.

[Dboi2001]

I've read a lot of Flash. I can tell you that Barry's dead mom is frequently cited whenever he's confronting a villain with some sort of tragedy, like Godspeed, or when he's teaming up with Batman, or when he's trying to relate to someone else about losing someone. It was true during several New 52 arcs (including a botched Zoom arc), and after a repireve, was also back after the Rebirth initiative. It's all over the show too. "I've lost so much....I've had a lot of pain in my life..." etc.

Even in Rebirth itself, Barry is given a bit of a hard-on-crime attitude implicitly attributed to his mother's murder. "Savitar is a murderer. He's guilty." Now there's a way to justify that choice for other reasons, but it was clear that this man was obsessed with his mother's case throughout his life as a young CSI.

I feel you’re looking too deep into it. And Barry always had a strong sense of justice. The rogues got off relatively easy because they never hurt or killed anyone whereas more menacing villains like Thawne who were murderers he was much harder on

Yes manupulo and the show bring it up a lot but Rebirth didn’t make a big deal about it

Also o wouldn’t call CW Barry super mopey especially after season 2. At least Miller in Justice League isn’t so mopey

I agree with folks that say the story could have been saved by Barry being able to save Nora. I hope he gets tha closure one day. The killing definitely did make Thawne more menacing and personal villain. But I don't know if we'll get it. The show cemented it, the movie will continue to explore it. Every time mass audiences think "Flash", they think "sad brown-haired kid with a dead mom". Really pisses me off.

I hate to break it to you but tv and movies will always shape the general audiences perception on characters. The mcu will be the definitive version for most people despite being very different from the comics. Like will people remember Star Lord the space lawman or Star lord who is Chris Pratt? I mean even Superman took a lot of stuff from the movies and shows. The S being the crest of El, the flight, Perry White, the heat vision etc all from movies and shows. They even changed his look to be more like Reeves