Rating and thoughts on Flash Rebirth (2009)

[Dboi2001]

See, I'm of the opinion that fridging Barry's mum to motivate him to heroism takes away an important piece of his personality. He became the Flash because he felt it was the right thing to do.
He was already a cop, and his powers gave him another avenue to help people. Barry was a minority as he had a perfectly normal mum and dad.
The retcon of Barry being the generator of the Speed Force effectively made every other speedster lesser.
Thawne generating a negative speed force was equally awful.
While I can perfectly understand wanting to push Barry front & centre, Geoff pretty much threw the baby out with the bathwater.

I actually thought Geoff Johns' original run on the Flash with Wally was INFINITELY superior to everything he wrote headlining Barry.

Again Barry did not become the Flash because of his mother. Never once in any Flash story does it say he became a hero or even a police scientist because of his mother's murder. I mean even in Flashpoint Barry was still a cop meaning he was always going to be a cop regardless.

And minority? That is a bit of a stretch. Hal Jordan, Sue and Johnny Storm, Aquaman (depending on which version), Superman, Iron Man, Captain America, Kyle Rainer, Simon Baz, Kamala Khan, Wally West and more all have typical childhoods with parents. Even most of the X-Men had loving families before their mutations (and some even after). TBH only really Spider-Man and Batman are directly inspired by their guardian's murder to become heroes at least that are well known. At least a good amount became heroes just because and don't even really focus on their families. I'm pretty sure most silver age heroes lacked tragic backstories like Batman or Spider-Man

and no the other speedsters aren't lesser than Barry. Barry didn't know how to time travel unlike Wally and didn't know about the speedforce unlike Max Mercury. He didn't even know how to make his costume unlike Wally

[Doctor Bifrost]

Again Barry did not become the Flash because of his mother.

You are one of the few people who believe this.

Sue and Johnny Storm have typical childhoods with parents.

No offense, but this is one of the reasons that people get frustrated having this conversation with you. You make claims that are simply false.

Susan Storm, and her younger brother, Jonathan grew up in the town of Glenville, Long Island, children of a physician named Franklin Storm and a woman named Mary. The parents left their kids alone one night to travel to a dinner honoring Dr. Storm. On the way, a tire blew out but only Mary was injured. Franklin escaped injury and insisted on operating on his wife. He was unable to save her and she died. After his wife's death, Dr. Franklin Storm became a gambler and a drunk, losing his medical practice, which led him to the accidental killing of a loan shark. Franklin did not defend himself in court, because he still felt guilty over Mary's death. With their father in prison, Susan had to become a mother figure for her younger brother.

That's from The Marvel Saga: Official History of The Marvel Universe #16, quoted here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Woman. But I read it when it Dad Storm was first introduced around Fantastic Four #31 in 1964 (the first issue he appeared, although the full story might have come out over a few issues), and never forgot. I don't think that's most people's definition of a "normal childhood," and in fact is much closer to Barry's current story.

A lot of the rest of your list isn't more convincing. Hal Jordan's dad was killed while test-piloting a plane (he voluntarily crashed it so it wouldn't crash in a populated area) while young Hal watched, which inspired the boy to become a test pilot and hero. Inspiration through tragedy! I'm hard-pressed to think of any version of Aquaman, going back all the way to the Golden Age, which suggests a normal childhood - in most versions, he is, after all, the child of a human and an Atlantean, and never knows his mother, who does not stick around. Kyle Rayner?

his father abandoned his mother when she was pregnant. It was later revealed that his father was a Mexican-American CIA agent named Gabriel Vasquez and that Aaron Rayner was merely an alias

(I'd accept the argument that he had a fairly ordinary single-parent upbringing, except for the fact that his father simply disappeared - but the truth, of course, turned out to be bizarre and melodramatic.)

Captain America?

Steven Grant Rogers was born in the Lower East Side of Manhattan, New York City, in 1920 to poor Irish immigrants, Sarah and Joseph Rogers. Joseph died when Steve was a child, and Sarah died of pneumonia while Steve was a teen.

A lot of early tragedy going around. I'm sorry, I wish you well, and I understand your frustration concerning Barry Allen, but you don't help your case by saying things that are not true. (I am not calling you a liar. I think you just don't know, and make a lot of convenient assumptions rather than do the research.)

[married guy]

Again Barry did not become the Flash because of his mother. Never once in any Flash story does it say he became a hero or even a police scientist because of his mother's murder. I mean even in Flashpoint Barry was still a cop meaning he was always going to be a cop regardless.

And minority? That is a bit of a stretch. Hal Jordan, Sue and Johnny Storm, Aquaman (depending on which version), Superman, Iron Man, Captain America, Kyle Rainer, Simon Baz, Kamala Khan, Wally West and more all have typical childhoods with parents. Even most of the X-Men had loving families before their mutations (and some even after). TBH only really Spider-Man and Batman are directly inspired by their guardian's murder to become heroes at least that are well known. At least a good amount became heroes just because and don't even really focus on their families. I'm pretty sure most silver age heroes lacked tragic backstories like Batman or Spider-Man

and no the other speedsters aren't lesser than Barry. Barry didn't know how to time travel unlike Wally and didn't know about the speedforce unlike Max Mercury. He didn't even know how to make his costume unlike Wally

I think Doctor Bifrost has responded pretty well already.

I will add Superman DIDN'T HAVE PARENTS until the Byrne relaunch. (Which I thought was a BRILLIANT idea). Hal Jordan watched his father die!! Aquaman and his parental relationships are a complete mess! Kyle Rayner had his father take off on him as a baby. Bruce Wayne's parents murdered. Tim Drake's parents murdered.

And Barry was retconned that he now GENERATED the very thing that gave all speedsters their power. That alone instantly lessened EVERY. OTHER. SPEEDSTER.

[Dboi2001]

I think Doctor Bifrost has responded pretty well already.

I will add Superman DIDN'T HAVE PARENTS until the Byrne relaunch. (Which I thought was a BRILLIANT idea). Hal Jordan watched his father die!! Aquaman and his parental relationships are a complete mess! Kyle Rayner had his father take off on him as a baby. Bruce Wayne's parents murdered. Tim Drake's parents murdered.

And Barry was retconned that he now GENERATED the very thing that gave all speedsters their power. That alone instantly lessened EVERY. OTHER. SPEEDSTER.

Well it was more of Superman’s parents just weren’t super relevant to his adult. None of those characters were defined by their parents deaths like Batman or spider-man. Hal’s dad dying wasn’t a thing until Emarald Dawn and it was more to show why he wanted to be a pilot not a superhero. Tim had a father until Identity Crisis which people hated killing off Jack but he was already Robin. And Kyle wasn’t broken up about his dad not being around he never knew him. my point is none of these heroes we’re defined by their parents deaths like Batman. Likewise Barry did not become a hero because of his mother’s death and if Flashpoint is any indication he would’ve been a police scientist anyways

It wasn’t a retcon that would imply it contradicted a previously established mythos. The speed force was always left vague so it could fill whatever plot device. However Wally mentioned he felt a connection to barry in the speed force. Barry is not lesser just because he generates it. Like even if he dies the speed force is still there. It just ties the speedsters together which Waid established

[Lightning Rider]

Absolutely. And they could have gone that route - or a different route. There's many ways they could have brought back or rebooted Barry Allen. But the goal was clearly not simply "bring back the guy we all remember." (Which I think would be difficult - some remember the Waid pastiche, some remember the 1960s version from the Archives / reprints, and some (like me) like the Cary Bates version best.)

And I don't think the trauma is just a form of motivation; Barry is aware its his destiny to become the Flash - the tragedy begets obstacles, tough choices; the things we expect from modern stories.

As evidence I'd point you to the first season (and a half, or so) of the TV show, which Johns had a hand in adapting, free from editorial interference. It made for a terrific arc, and a unique, terrifying take on Thawne.

I think the first arc of the show was great, and it did an excellent job at making Thawne a mysterious, compelling, and sinister villain. I suppose my gripe is with the constant revisiting/recycling, and the narrative weight given to the muder's consequences with respect to Barry's persona.

[Dboi2001]

but none of those heroes were defined by their tragedies like Batman and most of those changes were made much later. Hal’s dad dying was retconned post crisis. Sue and Johnny still had a happy childhood and even after their mother death it didn’t push them to become scientists and in 1610 Franklin is a loving father to Johnny and Sue. People hated Kyles father being a CIA agent who went into hiding and even then he still had a regular childhood. As for Steve that was pretty common back then and again added later. But he didn’t become a hero because of his siblings deaths. you’re being disingenuous saying barry didn’t have a traumatic origin pre crisis but bringing up post crisis examples

Again it isn’t like Batman or Spider-Man at all

[Lightning Rider]

Again Barry did not become the Flash because of his mother. Never once in any Flash story does it say he became a hero or even a police scientist because of his mother's murder.

From sometime in 2017/18:



There are a good number of examples like that spread throughout post-New52 Flash comics. Some more subtle than others.

Yes, in the original timeline, he's Flash anyway. But this Barry, the one who remembers growing up sad, cites the event as motivating factor.

[Dboi2001]

From sometime in 2017/18:


There are a good number of examples like that spread throughout post-New52 Flash comics. Some more subtle than others.

Yes, in the original timeline, he's Flash anyway. But this Barry, the one who remembers growing up sad, cites the event as motivating factor.

The new 52 made everyone edgier. The amazons were now rapists and murderers, the Kents died when Clark was a teen, Billy was a cynical kid in the foster system and Cyborg had daddy and his mom was dead. Rebirth is still a continuation of the new 52. I mean new 52 superman was so unfixable they killed him off and replaced him with pre 52 superman

even then i still wouldn’t put barry in the same bracket as Batman

[Doctor Bifrost]

but none of those heroes were defined by their tragedies like Batman and most of those changes were made much later. Hal’s dad dying was retconned post crisis. Sue and Johnny still had a happy childhood and even after their mother death it didn’t push them to become scientists and in 1610 Franklin is a loving father to Johnny and Sue. People hated Kyles father being a CIA agent who went into hiding and even then he still had a regular childhood. As for Steve that was pretty common back then and again added later. But he didn’t become a hero because of his siblings deaths. you’re being disingenuous saying barry didn’t have a traumatic origin pre crisis but bringing up post crisis examples

Again it isn’t like Batman or Spider-Man at all

The poster you were responding to said:

Barry was a minority as he had a perfectly normal mum and dad.

You replied:

And minority? That is a bit of a stretch.

And then you gave a list of counterexamples. But most of them were factually false. The characters did not have "a perfectly normal mum and dad."

Now you want to say you were not talking about what the poster you responded to said, but something more narrow: did the character's early tragedy specifically cause then to go int crime fighting? That's called "raising the bar," and it's not a good form of argumentation. It's a distraction from the fact that your original response was based on incorrect information.

And then you double down:

Sue and Johnny still had a happy childhood

A happy childhood in which their mother is killed in a car crash, their father feels responsible and is wracked by guilt, and his life spirals down until he winds up in jail? Yeah, I'm not sure what you mean by a "happy childhood."

And:

in 1610 Franklin is a loving father to Johnny and Sue

1610 as in the year, or the parallel world designation? In neither case do I have any idea why you think this would be relevant to the life of Sue and Johnny in the primary world. You can find parallel world versions to back up pretty much anything about anybody, which is why they don't tell you much.

As for Steve that was pretty common back then and again added later. But he didn’t become a hero because of his siblings deaths.

Siblings? What siblings? Are you even interested in what was said in the comics?

I wish you well, but you can have the rest of this conversation without me. You say things that are simply not true. Then when they are demonstrated to be not true, you say it doesn't matter, or it doesn't prove some other point, or it's true in a parallel world (I think...), or that what you said was true even thought you got the details wrong. (Siblings?)

You can stick to your own, idiosyncratic version of things, in which either you never make mistakes (because you were "talking about some other point"), or the mistakes in your evidence never cause you to reconsider your conclusions - which, therefore, do not seem to be based on your evidence. There's nothing meaningful I can contribute to that discussion. I don't think it's even really a discussion.

[Lightning Rider]

The new 52 made everyone edgier. The amazons were now rapists and murderers, the Kents died when Clark was a teen, Billy was a cynical kid in the foster system and Cyborg had daddy and his mom was dead. Rebirth is still a continuation of the new 52. I mean new 52 superman was so unfixable they killed him off and replaced him with pre 52 superman

even then i still wouldn’t put barry in the same bracket as Batman

I never claimed he belongs in the same bracket as Batman. I'm saying the retcon has been continuously referred back to in Flash comics/media, and contrary to what you just claimed, various moments in the comics do in fact point to his mother's death as a reason for his doing good.

[Dred]

The new 52 made everyone edgier. The amazons were now rapists and murderers, the Kents died when Clark was a teen, Billy was a cynical kid in the foster system and Cyborg had daddy and his mom was dead. Rebirth is still a continuation of the new 52. I mean new 52 superman was so unfixable they killed him off and replaced him with pre 52 superman

even then i still wouldn’t put barry in the same bracket as Batman

Nearly all of Barry Allen's post revival publication history has to count, man. You can't just keep saying everything doesn't count.

[Dboi2001]

I never claimed he belongs in the same bracket as Batman. I'm saying the retcon has been continuously referred back to in Flash comics/media, and contrary to what you just claimed, various moments in the comics do in fact point to his mother's death as a reason for his doing good.

You took that page out of context and again he never said he became the flash because of his mother. We saw in Flashpoint he was still a police scientist without his mother dying. At most he became a police scientist for what happened to his mom but even during the new 52 run it was more because he was raised by Captain Frye (who himself felt partially responsible for nora’s death)

But like I said people overestimate how many superheroes families/parents really mattered to them becoming heroes. Saying Barry only became the flash because of his mother is like saying Wally only became the Flash because his father was neglectful. And yes most flash media uses post crisis origin but so does most comic book media. Why do you think Marvel is going straight to Carol Danvers in the mcu? Barry died in the 80s and came back in 2009 so of course they’ll use more recent stories especially since the silver age wasn’t exactly known for its intricate and thoughtful stories

Plus people said Barry pre crisis was boring so you have to choose between a “cliche” and “boring.” It’s a lose lose either way

Even if I take all this as fact none of that was what Flash Rebirth set. Flash Rebirth never says Barry became a hero because of Nora and was meant to develop Eobard more. You are criticizing things that came after

[Dred]

You took that page out of context and again he never said he became the flash because of his mother. We saw in Flashpoint he was still a police scientist without his mother dying. At most he became a police scientist for what happened to his mom but even during the new 52 run it was more because he was raised by Captain Frye (who himself felt partially responsible for nora’s death)

But like I said people overestimate how many superheroes families/parents really mattered to them becoming heroes. Saying Barry only became the flash because of his mother is like saying Wally only became the Flash because his father was neglectful. And yes most flash media uses post crisis origin but so does most comic book media. Why do you think Marvel is going straight to Carol Danvers in the mcu? Barry died in the 80s and came back in 2009 so of course they’ll use more recent stories especially since the silver age wasn’t exactly known for its intricate and thoughtful stories

Plus people said Barry pre crisis was boring so you have to choose between a “cliche” and “boring.” It’s a lose lose either way

Even if I take all this as fact none of that was what Flash Rebirth set. Flash Rebirth never says Barry became a hero because of Nora and was meant to develop Eobard more. You are criticizing things that came after

That image is not taken out of context. There's no necessary context before or after. Barry is explaining too Wally why abusing their powers is bad. But in doing so evokes both his mother's death and its significance to him, explicitly stating that he dedicates every single day of his life to preventing similar tragedies from happening because his mother was murdered. You are just saying the words out of context when it is perfectly within context and perfectly relevant to the conversation. He "became The Flash" because he got zapped by lightning but he, as a character, is defined by this tragic backstory. He says it as plainly as it can possibly said and you still, somehow, manage to pretend it doesn't count.

Wally does not frequently bring up his parents as pathos to explain his motivation as a superhero. Barry does, frequently, more so than any other thing he's ever brought up since coming back to life. It is by far his most driving character motivation and foundation since Flash Rebirth. There isn't even an argument about this besides you saying it is. People have posted many examples for you, from all phases of The Flash since Barry's return, and your continuous statement is that it doesn't count...even though literally every. single. writer. has had Barry give a long soliloquy about how much his mother dying means to him and is why he became The Flash.

Wally brings up Barry frequently, often, as the reason he is a superhero. It is the thing he mentions as much as Barry mentions his mother. It would be perfectly reasonable to say Wally's character is in great part defined by having Barry and Iris raise him. The example you used makes no sense because, despite being part of his updated origin story, it is like the third most important part of his origin. Wally's neglectful parents are never given as a reason for his heroics. His neglectful parents are used as a reason for him to find better, surrogate parents in Iris and Barry.

I do not know why you use Flashpoint as an example. Barry was not The Flash in the Flashpoint universe....when his mom was alive. That's part of the butterfly effect. His mother never dies, he never becomes The Flash, and characters like Wally subsequently don't become speedsters because he was never The Flash. Flashpoint is explicitly a story about that. He becomes The Flash...after he gets memories back from his previous timeline, where his mother died and he became The Flash. Flashpoint was CAUSED by Barry being completely and utterly obsessed with his mother's death. When Flashpoint ended and the universe rebooted...his mom was still dead, and he was still utterly and completely defined by it. Jesus, when they reintroduced "Wally" in the New 52 they tried to make Wally and Barry's bonding point over their mutually dead moms. Thank god the Wally stuff didn't stick like Barry's did.

Once again you're peddling in false equivalency.

It is fair to say that Silver Age Barry became The Flash completely without his parents dying and that character never needed that kind of trauma to define him as a character. That is not the case with modern Barry. Modern Barry is defined by his mother's death as much as Batman is by his. That is explicit -- by design. They wanted Barry to be more popular and intentionally made him more similar to the most popular comic book character in the world.

[Dboi2001]

That image is not taken out of context. There's no necessary context before or after. Barry is explaining too Wally why abusing their powers is bad. But in doing so evokes both his mother's death and its significance to him, explicitly stating that he dedicates every single day of his life to preventing similar tragedies from happening because his mother was murdered. You are just saying the words out of context when it is perfectly within context and perfectly relevant to the conversation. He "became The Flash" because he got zapped by lightning but he, as a character, is defined by this tragic backstory. He says it as plainly as it can possibly said and you still, somehow, manage to pretend it doesn't count.

Again I disagree. Barry isn't defined by his mother's death. All he was telling Wally was he never wants people to suffer like him not to mention the fact Eobard stole Barry's life and has manipulated him since

Wally does not frequently bring up his parents as pathos to explain his motivation as a superhero. Barry does, frequently, more so than any other thing he's ever brought up since coming back to life. It is by far his most driving character motivation and foundation since Flash Rebirth. There isn't even an argument about this besides you saying it is. People have posted many examples for you, from all phases of The Flash since Barry's return, and your continuous statement is that it doesn't count...even though literally every. single. writer. has had Barry give a long soliloquy about how much his mother dying means to him and is why he became The Flash.

He did a lot during WML and parts of Waid's run. Barry did not bring up his mother for most of Manapul's run and again in Flash Rebirth they never once say Nora was why he became a superhero. Regardless one could argue making the West dysfunctional takes away from Wally's goody two shoes idealistic mid western childhood

Wally brings up Barry frequently, often, as the reason he is a superhero. It is the thing he mentions as much as Barry mentions his mother. It would be perfectly reasonable to say Wally's character is in great part defined by having Barry and Iris raise him. The example you used makes no sense because, despite being part of his updated origin story, it is like the third most important part of his origin. Wally's neglectful parents are never given as a reason for his heroics. His neglectful parents are used as a reason for him to find better, surrogate parents in Iris and Barry.

And neither was Nora's death. We just are going to have to disagree on how often Barry talks about his dead mother or how important her death was to Barry becoming the Flash

I do not know why you use Flashpoint as an example. Barry was not The Flash in the Flashpoint universe....when his mom was alive. That's part of the butterfly effect. His mother never dies, he never becomes The Flash, and characters like Wally subsequently don't become speedsters because he was never The Flash. Flashpoint is explicitly a story about that. He becomes The Flash...after he gets memories back from his previous timeline, where his mother died and he became The Flash. Flashpoint was CAUSED by Barry being completely and utterly obsessed with his mother's death. When Flashpoint ended and the universe rebooted...his mom was still dead, and he was still utterly and completely defined by it. Jesus, when they reintroduced "Wally" in the New 52 they tried to make Wally and Barry's bonding point over their mutually dead moms. Thank god the Wally stuff didn't stick like Barry's did.

Because people say Barry only became a hero or police scientist because of Nora. However in Flashpoint we see Barry is still a police scientist. In other words Nora was not the reason he became a police scientist and even in the new 52 it was more because of Captain Frye
since even Frye doubted that Henry killed Nora.

It is fair to say that Silver Age Barry became The Flash completely without his parents dying and that character never needed that kind of trauma to define him as a character. That is not the case with modern Barry. Modern Barry is defined by his mother's death as much as Batman is by his. That is explicit -- by design. They wanted Barry to be more popular and intentionally made him more similar to the most popular comic book character in the world.

because it was the silver age. Almost all heroes were good guys just because. Why did the Fantastic Four become heroes? Just because. Why did the Atom become a hero? Just because. I mean a good handful of heroes were scientists and/or police in some way, shape or form. Like even the Hawks were changed to be space cops instead of the reincarnation of Egyptian royalty because back then people viewed scientists and police as being righteous. Also which character are you talking about because a handful of heroes can be argued to be the most popular. If you mean Batman I disagree because like I said it didn't damage Barry as badly as Bruce (and he wanted to solve his mother's case because it went cold). Superman did not have a traumatic past until the New 52 (or at least he had two loving parents). Spider-Man was inspired by Ben's death but that was because he inadvertently killed his uncle. Like I said Eobard killing Nora was to develop Eobard more not Barry Allen in the context of Flash Rebirth which is what this thread is about and I still wouldn't define Barry by his mother's death. And I still disagree that the superhero dead parents cliche is that common. Most superheroes around Barry's time did not have intricate family lives or details let alone tragic ones. The point of Nora's death was to show how much Eobard is willing to torture Barry Allen since he could never kill him. In fact both Flash Rebirth and Flashpoint end with Barry letting go of his mother's death

The point is in Flash Rebirth and Flashpoint when Johns was at the helm of Barry Allen Nora’s death was not that important for Barry and was treated more like a “modern” death than a retcon since Thawne outright tells Barry there was a time where Barry did have his parents. We could argue how writers post new 52 overemphasized Nora’s death but under Johns’ she was not emphasized as a defining part of Barry and the theme of Rebirth and Flashpoint was Barry letting go. It’s fine to have a hero who is good because it’s the right thing, I mean Superman is one of my favorite heroes for that reason but just because Johns gave Barry a tragic backstory doesn’t make him Batman. And like I said people thought Barry was boring before the change

[BohemiaDrinker]

It wasn’t a retcon that would imply it contradicted a previously established mythos.

Wally became the fastest one. This was a big deal.

Jay was the original. This was also a big deal.

But the retcon makes it so that Wally was never faster than Barry (which is impossible, because the speed comes from him) nor Jay the original.

And a similar "big deal" thing about each and every one of these characters can be found, if you look hard enough. You don't want to look hard enough, though, it seems, what you want is confirmation that FlashRebirth is "correct" on its take. Good luck getting people who've read a lot of Flash to agree with you on that.

It not only invalidates previous established mythos, it's a very poor taste, like "genitalia measuring" poor taste, to put Barry up top.

"Oh, but I don't agree". Well, most people in this thread have been reading Flash forever. There's a sort of consensus here.

Again: you like Flash Rebirth. That's fine. But you've seen the characters as portrayed there and went "Oh, that's how they are!". And It's just not. What that is is a massive downgrade.