Rating and thoughts on Flash Rebirth (2009)

[Hol]

No offense but just using another universe Barry would’ve been kinda lame. Regardless as you and many others have mentioned before Barry was going to return regardless of Johns



Does he call black people white supremacists for criticizing his books?

I don't know man, I don't see why the Barry in Final Crisis had to be the "real" Barry. Could have worked either way.

And honestly I have only told you what Dan Didio said in interviews and the back of some DC comics about always planning on bringing Barry back. I personally don't believe him. It was the plan before Johns run ended to replace Wally but I personally think he didn't decide to bring Barry back until Johns and Van Sciver convinced him around the time Bart was Flash.

As far as EVS? Look it up man. I don't want to get into that conversation.

[Dboi2001]

- I feel like Green Lantern Rebirth brought back characters that had been missing mostly for years and made them shine while Flash Rebirth took the characters we had been reading about for years and made them 2nd tier just to prop Barry Allen up as the one true Flash. God that line in issue #1 when Jay Garrick says "Barry Allen made me the Flash" makes me wanna vomit.

Most non Hal Jordan fans disagree. And no Rebirth didn’t bring down other characters. And jay explained in the very same page what he meant

- Green Lantern brought back the core concept of the Corps, Guardians. Kyle being solo was great! But the Corps returning (with Hal or not) had to happen one day IMO.

And you think one of the most iconic heroes and the character that started the silver age was never going to return?

And like I said before Flash Rebirth aped Green Lantern Rebirth so much in the plot. Seriously, re-read one after the other. It's silly. The negative speed force is not only dumb but it is even worse than Thawne can just make it. lol

Why is the negative speed force dumb? And is it surprising since Johns did both?

Nora being killed wouldn't have been so bad if it was going to be reversed at some point. But now with the TV show adapting it I doubt it will ever go away and I don't think we needed ANOTHER hero with tragic beginings.

What about Hal’s father dying? Again it never was about Barry it was about Thawne. And I really don’t think many heroes have tragic origins. Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Wally, the Green Lanterns, Jay, Alan Scott, Captain America, Iron Man, the Fantastic Four and even Spider-Man got over Ben’s death and had a good relationship with Aunt May. I think the super hero tragedy cliche is over emphasized. And like I said Barry’s mother dying was meant to develop Thawne. And Barry did try to save Nora and it lead to Flashpoint. Let’s be real here Barry’s parents pre CoIE weren’t important

And I do not like Barry being the engine of the speed force. Not only does it make him the super duper bestest Flash ever it just makes the whole concept of the speed force look silly. The more you explain something like that (the force, speedforce, religon) the sillier it looks. Let it be this mysterious thing. Not this place where people are hanging out and having conversations. I didn't like it on the show either. The show, comics, even regular people now study the speed force. It is dumb.

Letting something be “mysterious” is just a cop out. Like people say midichlorians ruined the force but let’s be real the force was dues ex machina. Vader somehow didn’t sense Leia having the force but could sense Luke from across the galaxy not to mention the problem of how Han Solo or the imperial officer thought the force was a hokey religion when both are old enough to have lived through the republic and when the Jedi were running around not to mention Vader and Luke both demonstrate obvious force abilities. When you label it as “mysterious” it just lets you make up rules as you go along. And no Barry isn’t the super duper bestest flash considering he needed the whole flash family to defeat Thawne and didn’t know how to time travel

This post addresses your complaints

https://www.reddit.com/r/theflash/co...h_rebirth2009/

[Dboi2001]

I don't know man, I don't see why the Barry in Final Crisis had to be the "real" Barry. Could have worked either way.

And honestly I have only told you what Dan Didio said in interviews and the back of some DC comics about always planning on bringing Barry back. I personally don't believe him. It was the plan before Johns run ended to replace Wally but I personally think he didn't decide to bring Barry back until Johns and Van Sciver convinced him around the time Bart was Flash.

As far as EVS? Look it up man. I don't want to get into that conversation.

Because if it’s Barry from another dimension he is essentially a different character. Why do you think people were disappointed with Earth 2 JSA during the New 52?

I know all about comicsgate but you had no issue praising Mark Waid when he has done terrible things too. Just because someone has a different opinion or even says someone inappropriate doesn’t negate their talent. Not if they were doing terrible actions I’d agree they don’t deserve to be celebrated but I still respect some of Waid’s work despite disagreeing with him

[Hol]

Most non Hal Jordan fans disagree. And no Rebirth didn’t bring down other characters. And jay explained in the very same page what he meant



And you think one of the most iconic heroes and the character that started the silver age was never going to return?



Why is the negative speed force dumb? And is it surprising since Johns did both?



What about Hal’s father dying? Again it never was about Barry it was about Thawne. And I really don’t think many heroes have tragic origins. Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Wally, the Green Lanterns, Jay, Alan Scott, Captain America, Iron Man, the Fantastic Four and even Spider-Man got over Ben’s death and had a good relationship with Aunt May. I think the super hero tragedy cliche is over emphasized. And like I said Barry’s mother dying was meant to develop Thawne. And Barry did try to save Nora and it lead to Flashpoint. Let’s be real here Barry’s parents pre CoIE weren’t important



Letting something be “mysterious” is just a cop out. Like people say midichlorians ruined the force but let’s be real the force was dues ex machina. Vader somehow didn’t sense Leia having the force but could sense Luke from across the galaxy not to mention the problem of how Han Solo or the imperial officer thought the force was a hocky religion when both are old enough to have lived through the republic and when the Jedi were running around not to mention Vader and Luke both demonstrate obvious force abilities. When you label it as “mysterious” it just lets you make up rules as you go along. And no Barry isn’t the super duper bestest flash considering he needed the whole flash family to defeat Thawne and didn’t know how to time travel

This post addresses your complaints

https://www.reddit.com/r/theflash/co...h_rebirth2009/

I can't speak for "non Hal Jordan fans". I am speaking for myself.

I know that Jay explained what he meant on the same page. Johns is being meta. I get it. Showcase #4 ushered in the silver age and brought superhero comics back to the forefront. Wildcat even says "Barry brought us all back even if he didn't know it" But Jay and Ted are telling readers, new and old, that Barry is the most important super duper Flash. Which is an odd move considering he wasn't the lead for the last 20 plus years. You think they wouldn't want to piss off current fans.

It is easy now for you to say Barry was always going to return. You weren't there. He was gone for 22 years almost. it seemed pretty forever at the time. Keep in mind this was a time where, in comics, the revolving door on heaven wasn't nearly as big a thing. There were certain characters deaths that were considered untouchable. So yes I really didn't think he would ever return. Although after Quiver and GL Rebirth I started to get a little worried.

No I am not surprised that Johns wrote both Rebirths. Plenty of writers have work I both love and dislike.


Ok so I am not a GL expert but wasn't Hals dad dead before GL rebirth? And a parent dying is sad but your worst enemy going back in time and killing your mom to get to you is TRAGIC. She was murdered, Hals dad died in a accident. You can say all you want that Noras death was meant to develop Thawne but I disagree.


midichlorians ARE silly. Just like people hanging in the speed force chatting it up is silly. Just like half of the stories in religion are silly. But yes a mysterious force that powers speedsters? Much cooler. I swear I cringe every time a regular person on the show or comic talks about the speed force. So dumb.

[Hol]

Because if it’s Barry from another dimension he is essentially a different character. Why do you think people were disappointed with Earth 2 JSA during the New 52?

I know all about comicsgate but you had no issue praising Mark Waid when he has done terrible things too. Just because someone has a different opinion or even says someone inappropriate doesn’t negate their talent. Not if they were doing terrible actions I’d agree they don’t deserve to be celebrated but I still respect some of Waid’s work despite disagreeing with him

If Morrison would have been ok with an alt Barry I am sure it would have worked fine. It was his story.

Dude, do you actually believe that nonsense that is spread about Waid? That lawsuit stuff? I won't get into that with you either because it is bullshit. And I said EVS is a good artist...but I think the things he has done and said are disgusting and I am not going to praise him. But I am not talking about EVS anymore.

[Robanker]

Bad.

-Giving Barry a tragic backstory where his father is framed and jailed for murdering his mother goes against the spirit of the character and saddled him with poor stories and mopey characterizations for years since.

-Bart was written out of character for the sake of meta-commentary

-Barry (despite already being a saintly figure) was made the all-important Flash across all time, and the "creator" of the Speed Force.

-Thawne suddenly drew from the "Negative Speed Force", a hammy concept with no real purpose

It wasn't a total disaster in and of itself because the art was cool, Thawne was menacing, the Flash family was emphasized, and "those were for charity, Clark" is an all time great moment. But you could easily call the repercussions of that story disasterous.

My thoughts as well. The only moment I recall fondly is that interaction with Superman in issue #3 which is an all-time rad Flash moment and a real feather in Barry's cap.

Otherwise, Flash: Rebirth did far more harm than good.

[Hol]

BTW these are just my opinions. I am not trying to convince you to agree with me. I am glad you enjoy these comics. That is what they are here for.

I get why you would ask people why they don't like something you love. I posted a similar thread a while back about Identity Crisis. I love it and before posting here on the CBR boards I thought it was universally loved. People here gave me their feedback and that was it. I do not get why you feel the need to rehash it over and over but that's ok. I guess that is the point of the boards.

Anyway, if you like Flash Rebirth and prefer Barry Allen over Wally West god for you. Enjoy your comics.

[Hol]

[QUOTE=Lightning Rider;5114199]Bad.

-Giving Barry a tragic backstory where his father is framed and jailed for murdering his mother goes against the spirit of the character and saddled him with poor stories and mopey characterizations for years since.
-[QUOTE]

Yeah that is the thing...I feel like the Barrys dead mom thing is never going to go away now...especially because of the shows success.

[Dboi2001]

I know that Jay explained what he meant on the same page. Johns is being meta. I get it. Showcase #4 ushered in the silver age and brought superhero comics back to the forefront. Wildcat even says "Barry brought us all back even if he didn't know it" But Jay and Ted are telling readers, new and old, that Barry is the most important super duper Flash. Which is an odd move considering he wasn't the lead for the last 20 plus years. You think they wouldn't want to piss off current fans.

Sorry to me if I’m mistaken but didn’t you praise Waid and WML for emphasizing Barry’s legacy and making him seem more important and saintly than he really was? So Barry was always important even during Wally’s time and as Knight mentioned in the other thread Terminal Velocity heavily implied Barry aided Wally. What do you want jay to say that Wally is the best flash? That Wally made the flash legacy?

Also considering pre crisis earth 2 were fictional comic book characters to earth 1 and that keystone and Jay were erased yes Barry did 'make' Jay Garrick the flash because for almost a decade Jay and the other JSA members fell out of print and were erased from existence until Flash of Two Earths and subsequently CoIE merged Earths 1 and 2

It is easy now for you to say Barry was always going to return. You weren't there. He was gone for 22 years almost. it seemed pretty forever at the time. Keep in mind this was a time where, in comics, the revolving door on heaven wasn't nearly as big a thing. There were certain characters deaths that were considered untouchable. So yes I really didn't think he would ever return. Although after Quiver and GL Rebirth I started to get a little worried.

What about Superman or Phoenix or Professor X a million different times? I know some people dislike death being arbitrary in comics and when overused or misused but death doesn’t need to be permanent to be impactful. Not to mention the problem is if a character stays dead permanently they’re usually forgotten or only remembered for their deaths. Like captain marvel who is only known for getting cancer which I think is a shame. There is a pretty fine line of when heroes just become disposable. Like even if Dick Grayson was great as Batman do you really think it’d be better to leave Bruce dead for good? It just takes the super out of the hero. Like comics like these are never ending stories so it becomes less important who is under the mask or who is dead

Do you think there are some characters that should be resurrected

Ok so I am not a GL expert but wasn't Hals dad dead before GL rebirth? And a parent dying is sad but your worst enemy going back in time and killing your mom to get to you is TRAGIC. She was murdered, Hals dad died in a accident. You can say all you want that Noras death was meant to develop Thawne but I disagree.

I wouldn’t use tragic as much as f’ed up. It showed how far Thawne was going to go to ruin Barry’s life since he could never kill him. And if Barry fixed it at the end people would’ve complained that Barry can just fix any problem negating Zolomon’s motives

midichlorians ARE silly. Just like people hanging in the speed force chatting it up is silly. Just like half of the stories in religion is silly. But yes a mysterious force that powers speedsters? Much cooler. I swear I cringe every time a regular person on the show or comic talks about the speed force. So dumb.

They don’t hand out in the speed force. Barry said he felt like nothing and lost any sense of identity in the speed force. And no midichlorians aren’t silly. Just hand waving something as “mysterious” doesn’t make it better it is just lazy writing. Even religion explains everything and doesn’t just go “mystery.”

[Dboi2001]

BTW these are just my opinions. I am not trying to convince you to agree with me. I am glad you enjoy these comics. That is what they are here for.

I get why you would ask people why they don't like something you love. I posted a similar thread a while back about Identity Crisis. I love it and before posting here on the CBR boards I thought it was universally loved. People here gave me their feedback and that was it. I do not get why you feel the need to rehash it over and over but that's ok. I guess that is the point of the boards.

Anyway, if you like Flash Rebirth and prefer Barry Allen over Wally West god for you. Enjoy your comics.

I’m not rehashing. I just want to see what people as a whole think of it since you and others have claimed “most people” hate Flash Rebirth. I’ve even posted on other forums asking the same thing

[Dboi2001]

If Morrison would have been ok with an alt Barry I am sure it would have worked fine. It was his story.

Dude, do you actually believe that nonsense that is spread about Waid? That lawsuit stuff? I won't get into that with you either because it is bullshit. And I said EVS is a good artist...but I think the things he has done and said are disgusting and I am not going to praise him. But I am not talking about EVS anymore.

I’m not talking about the lawsuit. I’m talking about when Just Some Guy, a black YouTube comic reviewer, criticized Waid’s Ignited for being pro terrorists and politically biased. Waid being the professional 58 year old man he is responded by attacking JSG and calling him a white supremacist. Yet you have no issue with Waid from what I can tell. Like just look through his twitter and anyone who disagrees with him he calls a one of the follow: Nazi, fascist, white supremacy, X-phobe and misogynist

I think what Waid says is disgusting too but I won’t say his writing is awful based on his personality but off what is inked on the paper

[Jack The Tripper]

I’m not talking about the lawsuit. I’m talking about when Just Some Guy, a black YouTube comic reviewer, criticized Waid’s Ignited for being pro terrorists and politically biased. Waid being the professional 58 year old man he is responded by attacking JSG and calling him a white supremacist. Yet you have no issue with Waid from what I can tell. Like just look through his twitter and anyone who disagrees with him he calls a one of the follow: Nazi, fascist, white supremacy, X-phobe and misogynist

I think what Waid says is disgusting too but I won’t say his writing is awful based on his personality but off what is inked on the paper

Hol did not say EVS' art is bad. He said the opposite. He just stated that he doesn't support EVS as a person. This is very fair. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Hol]

Sorry to me if I’m mistaken but didn’t you praise Waid and WML for emphasizing Barry’s legacy and making him seem more important and saintly than he really was? So Barry was always important even during Wally’s time and as Knight mentioned in the other thread Terminal Velocity heavily implied Barry aided Wally. What do you want jay to say that Wally is the best flash? That Wally made the flash legacy?



What about Superman or Phoenix or Professor X a million different times? I know some people dislike death being arbitrary in comics and when overused or misused but death doesn’t need to be permanent to be impactful. Not to mention the problem is if a character stays dead permanently they’re usually forgotten or only remembered for their deaths. Like captain marvel who is only known for getting cancer which I think is a shame. There is a pretty fine line of when heroes just become disposable. Like even if dick Grayson was great as Batman do you really think it’d be better to leave Bruce dead for good? It just takes the super out of the hero. Like comics like these are never ending stories so it becomes less important who is under the mask or who is dead

Do you think there are some characters that should be resurrected



I wouldn’t use tragic as much as f’ed up. It showed how far Thawne was going to go to ruin Barry’s life since he could never kill him. And if Barry fixed it at the end people would’ve complained that Barry can just fix any problem negating Zolomon’s motives



They don’t hand out in the speed force. Barry said he felt like nothing and lost any sense of identity in the speed force. And no midichlorians aren’t silly. Just hand waving something as “mysterious” doesn’t make it better it is just lazy writing. Even religion explains everything and doesn’t just go “mystery.”

Ok so from the top...you don't see the difference here? When the star of the book is being made out to be the bestest and most important hero (and at others expense) compared to when the lead character is trying to live up to the memory of his dead uncle? It is like at a funeral in real life you talk about how great the person is but no one walks around praising them while they are around. It is just weird. You really don't see that? And no I don't want anyone to say Wally is the greatest Flash and created a legacy. I don't get why anyone would want to hear that about their favorite character. Weird ego thing maybe.

You always knew certain characters would always come back. Superman? Cmon. Plus I am telling you the revolving door to heaven wasn't as big a thing back then. Now I feel like most DC characters have been dead...at least once. lol.

Yes they were just hanging out there. Max and Johnny were just chillen, trapped and FULLY aware of who they were and all their memories. So for some reason Barry lost all sense of self but Max and Johnny were just chillen and eating some pizza.

Yeah religion does explain stuff and it makes it sound as silly as it is. You are not making a good point with religion trust me. DC's continuity makes more sense than most religion stories.

[Username taken]

It was lame.

Exactly.

You could tell Johns was trying to recreate the GL Rebirth magic but it all came out quite flat.

[Hol]

I’m not talking about the lawsuit. I’m talking about when Just Some Guy, a black YouTube comic reviewer, criticized Waid’s Ignited for being pro terrorists and politically biased. Waid being the professional 58 year old man he is responded by attacking JSG and calling him a white supremacist. Yet you have no issue with Waid from what I can tell. Like just look through his twitter and anyone who disagrees with him he calls a one of the follow: Nazi, fascist, white supremacy, X-phobe and misogynist

I think what Waid says is disgusting too but I won’t say his writing is awful based on his personality but off what is inked on the paper

I honestly never heard of that Waid stuff so I will look into it and get back to you. But I will say I am usually pretty cautious when listening to anything a YouTuber claims. And I doubt Mark Waid calls anyone he disagrees with those names. I'll look for some posts though and see. If you happen to have any of them available I would appreciate you saving me some work.