Rating and thoughts on Flash Rebirth (2009)

[Dboi2001]

Part of me still hopes that somehow he will still save her on the show. I stopped watching but I’d tune in for that.

He did save her. Guess what happened?

[Hol]

He did save her. Guess what happened?

I saw that season. Flashpoint. I stopped watching after the first episode of season 4 Occasionally I’ll pop in to check an episode out but am always disappointed. It’s a shame because season 1 was awesome. I’d say it was the best season of a superhero show ever. Season 2 began to lose me and 3 was terrible.

I meant I hope they end the show saving her for keeps.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I’m not saying Barry isn’t a very important character in the Flash mythos. But he’s not the most important. There is no most important in my opinion. All the stuff you say about Barry? All wouldn’t be possible without Jay Garrick. He’s the original. There would be no concept to revive without Jay. If Barry was the most important Flash character he never would have remained dead for over 20 years imo.

And yeah you can’t tell Wallys origin without a Barry but so what? If needed you could keep it super brief. Back in the day you didn’t have to know a lot about Abin Sur to explain Hal Jordan’s origin. They fleshed it out later. All you need to know for Wally is he was a kid sidekick and his mentor died. The “you can’t tell Wallys story without Barry” argument was never a solid argument for me for why Barry was more important or iconic. Didio used to say that. Scott Lang isn’t the original Ant Man and I betcha most people remember his name and not Hanks.

Jason Todd Bucky and Hal all came back a handful of years before Barry. I was talking about before that which why I mentioned getting nervous when Hal and Ollie came back.

Only movie fans know Lang more then Pym and that’s because Pym was retconned to be outside the original Avengers timeline

[Hol]

Only movie fans know Lang more then Pym and that’s because Pym was retconned to be outside the original Avengers timeline

I know.

There are way more people who see the Avengers movies than read the comics. That’s my point. Story wise it didn’t matter as much who Hank is. He’s the old guy who was the original Ant Man. But to millions of movie goers Scott Lang is Ant Man. Same type of thing could be done with Wally and Barry. Just because he’s important to Wallys back story doesn’t mean he’s the most important Flash. There is none. In my opinion.

[Dboi2001]

I’m not saying Barry isn’t a very important character in the Flash mythos. But he’s not the most important. There is no most important in my opinion. All the stuff you say about Barry? All wouldn’t be possible without Jay Garrick. He’s the original. There would be no concept to revive without Jay. If Barry was the most important Flash character he never would have remained dead for over 20 years imo.

And does the same apply to Alan Scott or Dinah Drake? Yeah without Jay there’d be no Flash but without Barry the Flash name would’ve gone the way of Black Fury, Moon Girl and Captain Battle same for Hal Jordan with green Lantern. Barry made the flash more science based, formed the JLA (which is more iconic and cooler than the JSA), introduced some of the most iconic villains, had Wally West, made the cosmic treadmill and thus time travel, Central City and basically revitalized superheroes. We could go back and forth to who is more important between Wally or Barry but what I do know is without Barry, Wally wouldn’t have had the journey from fanboy to sidekick to succeeding his idol that you love so much.

On top of that Barry brought the JSA to New Earth so yes he made Jay the Flash since during that time the JSA including Jay were just comic book characters in their world. But Wally brought them all back. And you debunk yourself with that argument “if he was so improtant he wouldn’t have stayed dead for 20 year.” He still remained vital to Wally’s story even in death. Plenty of important characters have had extended time dead. You think Hal is unimportant?

And yeah you can’t tell Wallys origin without a Barry but so what? If needed you could keep it super brief. Back in the day you didn’t have to know a lot about Abin Sur to explain Hal Jordan’s origin. They fleshed it out later. All you need to know for Wally is he was a kid sidekick and his mentor died. The “you can’t tell Wallys story without Barry” argument was never a solid argument for me for why Barry was more important or iconic. Didio used to say that. Scott Lang isn’t the original Ant Man and I betcha most people remember his name and not Hanks.

There is more too it. Abin Sur was just some alien who gave Hal his ring with no personal connection to Hal. Barry is important to Wally and is an icon to him that isn’t an argument it’s a fact. So yes I’d say even in death Barry is vital to Wally’s story even if it’s brief

People only know Scott Lang because of the movies. Even then I’d still argue Hank is more iconic being a founding avenger, creating Ultron and having one of the most controversial legacies with his wife not to mention was a star of Avengers EMH. Even then you are doing yourself no favors since even in the MCU Scott is Ant Man 2 and Hank is his mentor. So you need Hank to tell Scott’s story just like you need Barry even in death to tell Wally’s story (outside of just compositing them together)

[Dboi2001]

I know.

There are way more people who see the Avengers movies than read the comics. That’s my point. Story wise it didn’t matter as much who Hank is. He’s the old guy who was the original Ant Man. But to millions of movie goers Scott Lang is Ant Man. Same type of thing could be done with Wally and Barry. Just because he’s important to Wallys back story doesn’t mean he’s the most important Flash. There is none. In my opinion.

And comic fans hated the change which made Pym worse. Is that the hill you are going to die on? Sure you could just have Barry be retired or dead but what’s the point? The DCAU did that and it was not good for Wally

[Hol]

And does the same apply to Alan Scott or Dinah Drake? Yeah without Jay there’d be no Flash but without Barry the Flash name would’ve gone the way of Black Fury, Moon Girl and Captain Battle same for Hal Jordan with green Lantern. Barry made the flash more science based, formed the JLA (which is more iconic and cooler than the JSA), introduced some of the most iconic villains, had Wally West, made the cosmic treadmill and thus time travel, Central City and basically revitalized superheroes. We could go back and forth to who is more important between Wally or Barry but what I do know is without Barry, Wally wouldn’t have had the journey from fanboy to sidekick to succeeding his idol that you love so much.

On top of that Barry brought the JSA to New Earth so yes he made Jay the Flash since during that time the JSA including Jay were just comic book characters in their world. But Wally brought them all back. And you debunk yourself with that argument “if he was so improtant he wouldn’t have stayed dead for 20 year.” He still remained vital to Wally’s story even in death. Plenty of important characters have had extended time dead. You think Hal is unimportant?



There is more too it. Abin Sur was just some alien who gave Hal his ring with no personal connection to Hal. Barry is important to Wally and is an icon to him that isn’t an argument it’s a fact. So yes I’d say even in death Barry is vital to Wally’s story even if it’s brief

People only know Scott Lang because of the movies. Even then I’d still argue Hank is more iconic being a founding avenger, creating Ultron and having one of the most controversial legacies with his wife not to mention was a star of Avengers EMH. Even then you are doing yourself no favors since even in the MCU Scott is Ant Man 2 and Hank is his mentor. So you need Hank to tell Scott’s story just like you need Barry even in death to tell Wally’s story (outside of just compositing them together)

You don’t know what would have happened if Barry Allen wasn’t created. We will never know because he was created and things played out the way they did. And btw I disagree that the JLA is cooler than the JSA. Also alllll those things that came from Barry? There are plenty of things that came from Wallys run that are used today. The speed force, Impulse and other characters and concepts. That’s my point. They all brought great things to the table. None of them are more important than the others but for some reason you need your guy to be.

And again your missing the point. Of course more people know Lang because of the movies. Much wider audience and all but my point is just because you have to explain one character in another characters origin doesn’t mean one character is more important than another.

But again it just feels like you need Barry to be numero uno because I never said any of them should be.

[Hol]

And comic fans hated the change which made Pym worse. Is that the hill you are going to die on? Sure you could just have Barry be retired or dead but what’s the point? The DCAU did that and it was not good for Wally

A) not all comic fans hated it. I loved it. Ant Man and Ant Man and the Wasp and their roles in the Infinity movies were great! Again you’re lumping everyone into one group. B) how was no Barry in the DCAU bad for Wally?? Back the comment up.

[Dboi2001]

You don’t know what would have happened if Barry Allen wasn’t created. We will never know because he was created and things played out the way they did. And btw I disagree that the JLA is cooler than the JSA. Also alllll those things that came from Barry? There are plenty of things that came from Wallys run that are used today. The speed force, Impulse and other characters and concepts. That’s my point. They all brought great things to the table. None of them are more important than the others but for some reason you need your guy to be.

I have a good idea what would’ve happened.

That’s interesting you like the JSA more. Curious what you like more about them? Regardless the JLA has been the dc team since it’s inception and the JSA has been the second fiddle since. They’re kinda neat though a bit outdated now ( as in there’s no way they fought in WW2 since they’d be over 100 years old. At least they’ll be in Black Adam)

Look it really doesn't matter who added more to the Flash mythos but who had a greater impact and I'd easily say Barry Allen since even in death much of Wally's stories revolved around him

And again your missing the point. Of course more people know Lang because of the movies. Much wider audience and all but my point is just because you have to explain one character in another characters origin doesn’t mean one character is more important than another.

You just complained that you don’t want people to see Barry as how he is shown from the CW series. Well I don’t want ant man to be remembered as Paul Rudd. And even then MCU treats Hank Pym as more important than Scott giving him a tech company, working for SHIELD and giving Scott his suit

But again it just feels like you need Barry to be numero uno because I never said any of them should be.

Maybe important is the wrong word. I will agree arguing who is the most important is a bit trite. Jay was the original and introduced speedsters, Barry revitalized the name and industry and Wally brought it to the modern age. All Flashes define 3 different eras in comic books. But the fact is if you just say Barry was important to Wally before he died well you just don’t get the same impact and if Barry died outside of a crisis event it has even less impact. One of the biggest appeals to Wally was the fact the story of the flash progressed and changed the status quo. Barry’s story concluded and Wally’s began which is rare as heroes are expected to go on forever. But Barry certainly shouldn’t be shoved off to the side and Wally absolutely needs to be introduced as Kid Flash and an idolizing Barry. Part of the appeal of Wally is that readers grew up with him and saw him become the Flash. Taking that away leaves you with Wally at his lowest

A) not all comic fans hated it. I loved it. Ant Man and Ant Man and the Wasp and their roles in the Infinity movies were great! Again you’re lumping everyone into one group. B) how was no Barry in the DCAU bad for Wally?? Back the comment up.

I’m not trying to lump everyone. I don’t know how into the Avengers or ant man you were. All I know is many MANY fans of the classic avengers were disappointed Hank was sidelined and striped to being a bland mentor. I don’t hate Scott or Hope they were fine in their movies but there really wasn’t anything you couldn’t have done with Hank and Janet and arguably be better and more compelling. However marvel thought ant man was too stupid of a hero so they made his movies comedies and downplayed Hank’s negative traits. Like so many people were upset that Green Lantern was left from JL and even Martian Manhunter being replaced by Cyborg well Hank and Janet came up with the name avengers. I just think most people would’ve preferred Hank and Janet first then transition to Scott and maybe even Cassie. I really don't think Ant Man is the ant hill you want to die on for arguing how to introduce a legacy character without the original.

Also I find it hypocritical you complain about Barry taking things from Wally when Scott got Giant Man and Wasp when both were Hanks, made Yellowjacket a villain and overplayed Scott’s importance to the other avengers.

As for DCAU Flash he wasn’t bad just not as memorable as the others. Never grew to anything more than the funny one and him being Wally was never important. They gave him Barry’s villains and job even central city instead of keystone. Like it really didn't matter if he was Barry or Wally if they changed his color and called him Barry I doubt anyone would notice. I feel the only reason people view this version so highly is because of how great the rest of the show was. Flash wasn't terrible but he was unexceptional in an exceptional show. To me virtually all of the JL are at their best here besides the Flash who never really got any character development or growth. Like Michael Rosenbaum is a great actor but I just can't picture his voice for Wally unlike the rest of the JL. Hell I'd rather have Aquaman take his place

No offense dude but you keep switching arguments. First you say it is bad that people view Barry Allen off the show but praise Ant Man for being viewed off the movie. You criticize DC giving Barry all of Wally's things but think it is okay for the mcu to do it with Scott. You argued if Barry wasn't that important because he was dead for 20 years yet ignore that the JSA and Jay fell out of print for 10 years with no mention of them until after the multiverse was introduced by Barry Allen which is something else you can add to Barry's list and on top of that there would be a gap between 1977 and 1991 and wouldn't get an ongoing series until 1999 with John's JSA. You also claim none of the Flashes need to be "numero uno" but seem to have a problem with Barry being alive and stealing the spotlight from Wally

It may be arbitrary who is "more important" but imo Barry did much more to add to the greater DCU than Wally. I mean DC is very much defined by the multiverse and is what separates it from Marvel until recently. He helped form the JLA which is still DC's flagship team to this day and ushered the modern age with CoIE leading to things like Death in the Family, Wally as Flash and so on

[Hol]

I have a good idea what would’ve happened.

That’s interesting you like the JSA more. Curious what you like more about them? Regardless the JLA has been the dc team since it’s inception and the JSA has been the second fiddle since. They’re kinda neat though a bit outdated now ( as in there’s no way they fought in WW2 since they’d be over 100 years old. At least they’ll be in Black Adam)



You just complained that you don’t want people to see Barry as how he is shown from the CW series. Well I don’t want ant man to be remembered as Paul Rudd. And even then MCU treats Hank Pym as more important than Scott giving him a tech company, working for SHIELD and giving Scott his suit



Maybe important is the wrong word. I will agree arguing who is the most important is a bit trite. Jay was the original and introduced speedsters, Barry revitalized the name and industry and Wally brought it to the modern age. All Flashes define 3 different eras in comic books. But the fact is if you just say Barry was important to Wally before he died well you just don’t get the same impact and if Barry died outside of a crisis event it has even less impact. One of the biggest appeals to Wally was the fact the story of the flash progressed and changed the status quo. Barry’s story concluded and Wally’s began which is rare as heroes are expected to go on forever. But Barry certainly shouldn’t be shoved off to the side and Wally absolutely needs to be introduced as Kid Flash and an idolizing Barry.



I’m not trying to lump everyone. I don’t know how into the Avengers or ant man you were. All I know is many MANY fans of the classic avengers were disappointed Hank was sidelined and striped to being a bland mentor. I don’t hate Scott or Hope they were fine in their movies but there really wasn’t anything you couldn’t have done with Hank and Janet and arguably be better and more compelling. However marvel thought ant man was too stupid of a hero so they made his movies comedies and downplayed Hank’s negative traits. Like so many people were upset that Green Lantern was left from JL and even Martian Manhunter being replaced by Cyborg well Hank and Janet came up with the name avengers. I just think most people would’ve preferred Hank and Janet first then transition to Scott and maybe even Cassie.

Also I find it hypocritical you complain about Barry taking things from Wally when Scott got Giant Man and Wasp when both were Hanks, made Yellowjacket a villain and overplayed Scott’s importance.

As for DCAU Flash he wasn’t bad just not as memorable as the others. Never grew to anything more than the funny one and him being Wally was never important. They gave him Barry’s villains and job even central city instead of keystone

Dude I think you’re mixing me up with other posters here. I never said I didn’t want people to see Barry as he is shown in the CW series. I love Gustin as Barry Allen. Also I never complained about Barry taking things from Wally. I said they’ve all contributed important elements to the mythos.

And yes one of the key elements of Wallys run was him living up to his mentors memory. And Barry did come up a lot in Wallys run but you don’t have to go much into Barry’s back story to drive that home and have the impact on Wally. Barry was mentioned a lot in Wallys run but people tend to exaggerate to what extent. He’s mostly just mentioned. Not much more or less than uncle Ben in a spider man comic. You can tell great Wally West Flash stories without going into any more detail about Barry as Hal stories typically deal with Abin Sur.
People sometimes act like every Flash comic of volume 2 was about Barry. It wasn’t. He was mentioned a lot but only a few arcs were a lot about him. Return of Barry Allen and Secret of Barry Allen.

[9th.]

5, but only because it got me into the Flash

[Hol]

I have a good idea what would’ve happened.

That’s interesting you like the JSA more. Curious what you like more about them? Regardless the JLA has been the dc team since it’s inception and the JSA has been the second fiddle since. They’re kinda neat though a bit outdated now ( as in there’s no way they fought in WW2 since they’d be over 100 years old. At least they’ll be in Black Adam)

Look it really doesn't matter who added more to the Flash mythos but who had a greater impact and I'd easily say Barry Allen since even in death much of Wally's stories revolved around him



You just complained that you don’t want people to see Barry as how he is shown from the CW series. Well I don’t want ant man to be remembered as Paul Rudd. And even then MCU treats Hank Pym as more important than Scott giving him a tech company, working for SHIELD and giving Scott his suit



Maybe important is the wrong word. I will agree arguing who is the most important is a bit trite. Jay was the original and introduced speedsters, Barry revitalized the name and industry and Wally brought it to the modern age. All Flashes define 3 different eras in comic books. But the fact is if you just say Barry was important to Wally before he died well you just don’t get the same impact and if Barry died outside of a crisis event it has even less impact. One of the biggest appeals to Wally was the fact the story of the flash progressed and changed the status quo. Barry’s story concluded and Wally’s began which is rare as heroes are expected to go on forever. But Barry certainly shouldn’t be shoved off to the side and Wally absolutely needs to be introduced as Kid Flash and an idolizing Barry. Part of the appeal of Wally is that readers grew up with him and saw him become the Flash. Taking that away leaves you with Wally at his lowest



I’m not trying to lump everyone. I don’t know how into the Avengers or ant man you were. All I know is many MANY fans of the classic avengers were disappointed Hank was sidelined and striped to being a bland mentor. I don’t hate Scott or Hope they were fine in their movies but there really wasn’t anything you couldn’t have done with Hank and Janet and arguably be better and more compelling. However marvel thought ant man was too stupid of a hero so they made his movies comedies and downplayed Hank’s negative traits. Like so many people were upset that Green Lantern was left from JL and even Martian Manhunter being replaced by Cyborg well Hank and Janet came up with the name avengers. I just think most people would’ve preferred Hank and Janet first then transition to Scott and maybe even Cassie. I really don't think Ant Man is the ant hill you want to die on for arguing how to introduce a legacy character without the original.

Also I find it hypocritical you complain about Barry taking things from Wally when Scott got Giant Man and Wasp when both were Hanks, made Yellowjacket a villain and overplayed Scott’s importance to the other avengers.

As for DCAU Flash he wasn’t bad just not as memorable as the others. Never grew to anything more than the funny one and him being Wally was never important. They gave him Barry’s villains and job even central city instead of keystone. Like it really didn't matter if he was Barry or Wally if they changed his color and called him Barry I doubt anyone would notice. I feel the only reason people view this version so highly is because of how great the rest of the show was. Flash wasn't terrible but he was unexceptional in an exceptional show. To me virtually all of the JL are at their best here besides the Flash who never really got any character development or growth. Like Michael Rosenbaum is a great actor but I just can't picture his voice for Wally unlike the rest of the JL. Hell I'd rather have Aquaman take his place

No offense dude but you keep switching arguments. First you say it is bad that people view Barry Allen off the show but praise Ant Man for being viewed off the movie. You criticize DC giving Barry all of Wally's things but think it is okay for the mcu to do it with Scott. You argued if Barry wasn't that important because he was dead for 20 years yet ignore that the JSA and Jay fell out of print for 10 years with no mention of them until after the multiverse was introduced by Barry Allen which is something else you can add to Barry's list and on top of that there would be a gap between 1977 and 1991 and wouldn't get an ongoing series until 1999 with John's JSA. You also claim none of the Flashes need to be "numero uno" but seem to have a problem with Barry being alive and stealing the spotlight from Wally

It may be arbitrary who is "more important" but imo Barry did much more to add to the greater DCU than Wally. I mean DC is very much defined by the multiverse and is what separates it from Marvel until recently. He helped form the JLA which is still DC's flagship team to this day and ushered the modern age with CoIE leading to things like Death in the Family, Wally as Flash and so on

So wait because the JLA is THE DC team does that mean they’re better than the JSA? Because they’re more successful in respects to selling comics? I’m wondering if success is the barometer of quality or the better characters for you because the Paul Rudd Ant Man movies are known worldwide. He’s better known as Ant Man and has made Marvel a lot more money. Does that make him THE Ant Man in your mind then?

[Hol]

I have a good idea what would’ve happened.

That’s interesting you like the JSA more. Curious what you like more about them? Regardless the JLA has been the dc team since it’s inception and the JSA has been the second fiddle since. They’re kinda neat though a bit outdated now ( as in there’s no way they fought in WW2 since they’d be over 100 years old. At least they’ll be in Black Adam)

Look it really doesn't matter who added more to the Flash mythos but who had a greater impact and I'd easily say Barry Allen since even in death much of Wally's stories revolved around him



You just complained that you don’t want people to see Barry as how he is shown from the CW series. Well I don’t want ant man to be remembered as Paul Rudd. And even then MCU treats Hank Pym as more important than Scott giving him a tech company, working for SHIELD and giving Scott his suit



Maybe important is the wrong word. I will agree arguing who is the most important is a bit trite. Jay was the original and introduced speedsters, Barry revitalized the name and industry and Wally brought it to the modern age. All Flashes define 3 different eras in comic books. But the fact is if you just say Barry was important to Wally before he died well you just don’t get the same impact and if Barry died outside of a crisis event it has even less impact. One of the biggest appeals to Wally was the fact the story of the flash progressed and changed the status quo. Barry’s story concluded and Wally’s began which is rare as heroes are expected to go on forever. But Barry certainly shouldn’t be shoved off to the side and Wally absolutely needs to be introduced as Kid Flash and an idolizing Barry. Part of the appeal of Wally is that readers grew up with him and saw him become the Flash. Taking that away leaves you with Wally at his lowest



I’m not trying to lump everyone. I don’t know how into the Avengers or ant man you were. All I know is many MANY fans of the classic avengers were disappointed Hank was sidelined and striped to being a bland mentor. I don’t hate Scott or Hope they were fine in their movies but there really wasn’t anything you couldn’t have done with Hank and Janet and arguably be better and more compelling. However marvel thought ant man was too stupid of a hero so they made his movies comedies and downplayed Hank’s negative traits. Like so many people were upset that Green Lantern was left from JL and even Martian Manhunter being replaced by Cyborg well Hank and Janet came up with the name avengers. I just think most people would’ve preferred Hank and Janet first then transition to Scott and maybe even Cassie. I really don't think Ant Man is the ant hill you want to die on for arguing how to introduce a legacy character without the original.

Also I find it hypocritical you complain about Barry taking things from Wally when Scott got Giant Man and Wasp when both were Hanks, made Yellowjacket a villain and overplayed Scott’s importance to the other avengers.

As for DCAU Flash he wasn’t bad just not as memorable as the others. Never grew to anything more than the funny one and him being Wally was never important. They gave him Barry’s villains and job even central city instead of keystone. Like it really didn't matter if he was Barry or Wally if they changed his color and called him Barry I doubt anyone would notice. I feel the only reason people view this version so highly is because of how great the rest of the show was. Flash wasn't terrible but he was unexceptional in an exceptional show. To me virtually all of the JL are at their best here besides the Flash who never really got any character development or growth. Like Michael Rosenbaum is a great actor but I just can't picture his voice for Wally unlike the rest of the JL. Hell I'd rather have Aquaman take his place

No offense dude but you keep switching arguments. First you say it is bad that people view Barry Allen off the show but praise Ant Man for being viewed off the movie. You criticize DC giving Barry all of Wally's things but think it is okay for the mcu to do it with Scott. You argued if Barry wasn't that important because he was dead for 20 years yet ignore that the JSA and Jay fell out of print for 10 years with no mention of them until after the multiverse was introduced by Barry Allen which is something else you can add to Barry's list and on top of that there would be a gap between 1977 and 1991 and wouldn't get an ongoing series until 1999 with John's JSA. You also claim none of the Flashes need to be "numero uno" but seem to have a problem with Barry being alive and stealing the spotlight from Wally

It may be arbitrary who is "more important" but imo Barry did much more to add to the greater DCU than Wally. I mean DC is very much defined by the multiverse and is what separates it from Marvel until recently. He helped form the JLA which is still DC's flagship team to this day and ushered the modern age with CoIE leading to things like Death in the Family, Wally as Flash and so on

Omg dude this is why so many posters get frustrated talking to you. You are either making **** up or you honestly can’t keep track of what people are saying.
1) I never ever said I didn’t want people to view Barry Allen as he is depicted on the show. I love Gustins take on him. I said I didn’t like the dead mom thing sticking and the quality of the show went down. That is what I said. Stop making stuff up.
2) I never criticized DC for giving Barry some of Wallys things. Ever. Wallys run used Barry’s toys. I’m ok with that. Again stop making stuff up. I didn’t say that.
3) I didn’t say Barry was unimportant and that’s why he was gone 20 years. I said he wasn’t the most important. None are. Only you seem to need his character to be the bestest. So one more time stop making **** up.

And nothing you’re bringing up about the JSA or Jay disappearing is relevant because I never send they were the most important things ever. That’s your thing apparently.

So get your facts straight and stop making **** up.

Also no character is inherently better. I love all Flashes. You clearly need Barry be the best. I don’t care what Barry did or did not do in the silver age. Guess what? Wallys been the best written Flash hands down. So if you want to get into some silly pissing contest about what different characters bring to the table...Wally is the best written. And that’s really all that matters.

[Hol]

I’m not trying to lump everyone. I don’t know how into the Avengers or ant man you were. All I know is many MANY fans of the classic avengers were disappointed Hank was sidelined and striped to being a bland mentor. I don’t hate Scott or Hope they were fine in their movies but there really wasn’t anything you couldn’t have done with Hank and Janet and arguably be better and more compelling. However marvel thought ant man was too stupid of a hero so they made his movies comedies and downplayed Hank’s negative traits. Like so many people were upset that Green Lantern was left from JL and even Martian Manhunter being replaced by Cyborg well Hank and Janet came up with the name avengers. I just think most people would’ve preferred Hank and Janet first then transition to Scott and maybe even Cassie. I really don't think Ant Man is the ant hill you want to die on for arguing how to introduce a legacy character without the original.

on

Well considering the first Ant Man movies gross receipts were over 500 million just 2 years after Man of Steel grossed 600 million I’d say I feel good dying on that hill.

[Dboi2001]

So wait because the JLA is THE DC team does that mean they’re better than the JSA? Because they’re more successful in respects to selling comics? I’m wondering if success is the barometer of quality or the better characters for you because the Paul Rudd Ant Man movies are known worldwide. He’s better known as Ant Man and has made Marvel a lot more money. Does that make him THE Ant Man in your mind then?

That is purely subjective when you say "better" since there is no real objectivity to these books. You like the JSA better and I like the JLA better. But if we view success by going of sales, publication and general promotion then yes I'd argue the Justice League is more successful. It is why we have had numerous television series and a movie based around the JLA rather than the JSA. And yeah I will concede that for general audiences sure Scott is more 'successful' than Hank in terms of money. But Hank also was forced to be a side character. Who knows if they'll make an Ant Man prequel with Douglas I've heard about and who knows how successful it is. However in terms of comics I'd say Hank is still more successful and iconic even after the promotional push Scott got with his movie coming out. This is not black and white. Superman has been an icon in pop culture and comics but after Superman II Superman movies took a big nose dive in quality leading to a 15 year gap between Superman IV and Superman Returns and an even longer gap for a full on reboot

Is the JLA better than the JSA that is purely subjective and dependent on the writer but you can't deny the JLA has had a bigger impact than the JSA

And yes one of the key elements of Wallys run was him living up to his mentors memory. And Barry did come up a lot in Wallys run but you don’t have to go much into Barry’s back story to drive that home and have the impact on Wally. Barry was mentioned a lot in Wallys run but people tend to exaggerate to what extent. He’s mostly just mentioned. Not much more or less than uncle Ben in a spider man comic. You can tell great Wally West Flash stories without going into any more detail about Barry as Hal stories typically deal with Abin Sur.

Again dude Abin Sur has nothing to do with this. We aren't meant to care about Abin Sur he just shows up to give Hal his ring and die. We are suppose to relate to Wally wanting to succeed his beloved uncle after his noble sacrifice. And yeah not every arc involved Barry but the best ones did.

Omg dude this is why so many posters get frustrated talking to you. You are either making **** up or you honestly can’t keep track of what people are saying.

Looking back I see where I twisted the thread so I apologize for that

3) I didn’t say Barry was unimportant and that’s why he was gone 20 years. I said he wasn’t the most important. None are. Only you seem to need his character to be the bestest. So one more time stop making **** up.

And I never argued he was the most important or "bestest" Flash. However it is undeniable he had a bigger impact than Jay or Wally. And I don't think Johns was trying to make Barry overly important at the expense of the other speedsters but emphasize his impact. When Barry is trying to escape the Negative Speed he said he needed Wally to get out and to pass the engine to someone else. And I just feel saying a character is better off as dead sure does come off as saying he is unimportant. Like I will admit Captain Marvel is not important to modern marvel comics so there is no reason to bring him back to life. Barry remained important to Wally throughout his run

Also no character is inherently better. I love all Flashes. You clearly need Barry be the best. I don’t care what Barry did or did not do in the silver age. Guess what? Wallys been the best written Flash hands down. So if you want to get into some silly pissing contest about what different characters bring to the table...Wally is the best written. And that’s really all that matters.

I agree with that but as I already said you can't deny Barry had a bigger impact than Wally. Sure Wally may have been the best written and best stories but he did not leave nearly as big of an impact as Barry and his impact as a legacy character is directly linked to Barry

Well considering the first Ant Man movies gross receipts were over 500 million just 2 years after Man of Steel grossed 600 million I’d say I feel good dying on that hill.

just because a movie makes a lot of money doesn't mean it should be copied or that it is necessarily good. Captain Marvel made over a billion dollars and that movie was mediocre. Ant-Man was a fine light heart flick but something that I just can't see myself revisiting very often. It was the light gummy snack after the big bloated feast of AoU and served to cleanse the palette and be a bit upbeat after the events of the previous movie. People rarely rank it among Marvel's best and is typically middle of the road. Just fine as a superhero flick. It had funny characters and cool flashy cgi fights but certainly not something people talk about or discuss today

As for your comparison as to the Flash it is still flawed. First off not everyone was happy about Hank and Jan being sidelined and no longer being founding avengers or make Stark the creator of Ultron. Secondly Barry dying was not just a turning point for the Flash but the whole DCU. Barry was a founding member of the JLA, discovered the multiverse and subsequently saved it. The reason Pym was left out of the Avengers was because the studio thought there were too many smart guys on the team whereas Wally doesn't have anything unique that Barry wouldn't bring to the table. The interesting dynamic with Wally was he was joining the grown ups table and having to work with essentially the parents of his former Titans teammates so there was a generational gap to him and the other leaguers (besides Kyle who was a newbie). Just skipping Barry and having Wally as the main Flash is to me like skipping over Bruce Wayne and going straight to Dick Grayson. They are just too important to the characters and their development to be essentially a cliff note

Hank and Scott were never close not to mention act nothing like they do from the comics in the movies. Hank was never a mentor to Scott. So if anything they overemphasized their relationship. Wally can only become the Flash if Barry is dead so we won't see their relationship very much or Wally growing up admiring the Flash. Like I'm sure you could make it work but I just don't think it would be very good not to mention it just would be more interesting seeing Barry as the flash for 1 or 2 solo movies and 2 JL movies with him dying ala CoIE style to save the multiverse and then having Wally step up as the Flash

Like let's say WB comes up to you and say they are rebooting the DCEU from square 1 and want you to head it with total creative control, how would you go about a Flash solo movie?

I just think taking away Wally's relationship with Barry and his legacy hurts the character greatly since much of WML and Waid's runs relied on Barry and as Knight mentioned even him becoming a family man became a new challenge for him but after all that he became much more stale. Like I said I don't think Flash in JL and JLU was bad just unexceptional which made him stand out from the show's quality in other areas and there was really not very much Wally brought to the table that couldn't have been filled by Barry Allen. It doesn't have to do with important as much as impact of the characters and how they play off each other