Was there a way for Superman to stop Dr. Manhattan?

[Mr_E_88]

Hi guys

One of the main attraction for Doomsday Clock was a supposed fight between Superman and Dr. Manhattan. Had DC pulled the trigger on that fight, do you think that there was a way for Superman to stop Manhattan?

I want this to be a discussion, so I'll start first:

In my opinion, I imagine that if he teamed with Batman, Luther, and Oz and had prep time I think they would have found a way to stop him, with Superman being the one to go head to head with Manhattan.

[manwhohaseverything]

He could punch reality by being pissed. That's about it.

[Mr_E_88]

He could punch reality by being pissed. That's about it.

Wasn't that something that Only Superboy Prime did?

[manwhohaseverything]

Wasn't that something that Only Superboy Prime did?

Not really, the precrisis supermen could do it. Goldenage superman punched anti-moniter.it's basically this.

[Mr_E_88]

Not really, the precrisis supermen could do it. Goldenage superman punched anti-moniter.it's basically this.

Yeah, but that's pre crisis and golden age Superman. Were talking about Rebirth Superman, do you think he can do what those versions did?

I know he punched a really powerfull being by going past seven suns and knoucked him out, but I don't see this feat engough to take down Manhattan.

[Robanker]

Hi guys

One of the main attraction for Doomsday Clock was a supposed fight between Superman and Dr. Manhattan. Had DC pulled the trigger on that fight, do you think that there was a way for Superman to stop Manhattan?

I want this to be a discussion, so I'll start first:

In my opinion, I imagine that if he teamed with Batman, Luther, and Oz and had prep time I think they would have found a way to stop him, with Superman being the one to go head to head with Manhattan.

This is false. Geoff Johns said several times when it was announced that it will not end in a fight. That's not the story he's trying to tell. People asked "how is that even going to work" and he replied "that's the story."

[Rod G]

In a word:

No.


Which is why Doomsday Clock ended up being pointless. All Superman and Dr. Manhattan basically did was navel gazing.

[Mr_E_88]

This is false. Geoff Johns said several times when it was announced that it will not end in a fight. That's not the story he's trying to tell. People asked "how is that even going to work" and he replied "that's the story."

You are correct, but before Doomsday Clock some readers were expecting a fight and this is the point of this topic to think of what would happen if DC actully went with a fight.

[Mr_E_88]

In a word:

No.


Which is why Doomsday Clock ended up being pointless. All Superman and Dr. Manhattan basically did was navel gazing.

I dissagree.

One of the things that we got from it was a new breakdown of the DC universe.

[Robanker]

You are correct, but before Doomsday Clock some readers were expecting a fight and this is the point of this topic to think of what would happen if DC actully went with a fight.

No, because Jon sees the past, present and future concurrently. Any plan, no matter how well-thought out, isn't going to succeed if someone knows the exact details in which it's employed. Infinite prep time from the smartest men on the planet or no, he literally knows all their moves before they've even thought of them. Think of it as follows: they spend three years making the perfect plan that cannot fail. Doc saw the final form of the plan the minute he stepped into the DCU and can see it unfolding with perfect recollection as it's about to happen. It doesn't matter how smart they are or how strong Superman is. He knows all the blows and how to avoid them, all the twists in the plan and can see the smoke and mirrors for what they are. It just won't work.

He can also unmake them at a quantum level and is, himself, a genius. You beat Manhatten by appealing to his intellect, reason or emotionally. You get him to stand down. That's really the only way he ever "loses."

Manhatten isn't someone anyone save The Spectre or something can conceivably beat because, frankly, he operates with them removed from their constructs as creatures of fiction. The only reason the Spectre, per se, might be able to is because he's imbued with the unlimited potential of The Presence, who is God. So he too can be omnipotent, should the story dictate he need be.

But Batman and Superman are irrelevant against Doc. He only loses if he wills it.

Doctor Manhatten wasn't a creature designed to fight anyone. He was made to be so utterly powerful that this sort of discussion couldn't exist. The answer to "could x beat Doctor Manhatten" is "no" uniformly so that the conversation could move to philosophical discussions. That's why Moore made him so damn ridiculous. He didn't want anything to be resolved with a punch-up. Doc exists to prevent the physical confrontation/arms race by making an absolute victor in it.

It's like asking "which famous martial artist could beat the sun in a fight?" The equation has the same answer regardless of which practitioner and school you plug in as variables: none, so let's discuss something more stimulating.

[manwhohaseverything]

No, because Jon sees the past, present and future concurrently.

Manhattan is based on some of the stories of asian continent like buddha, shiva.. Etc and many other saints.He is what you call a "threekaladarshi/one who sees past, present and future at the same time" .

Peering through the vales of time doesn't mean you escape the laws of the universe or karma or causality. It means you know you are bound. As a being of inaction, manhattan is forever bound. Superman as an archetype is bigger than these guys philosophically and thematically. He is krishna, moses.. Etc. He is the chain breaker like fenrir who kills odin himself in ragnarok and shiva who has become "pashupathi/ the lord of the beasts and monsters". He defies causality itself in his finality (the reason he spins around the globe and reverses time) . But, then he won't be human anymore even by the standards of gods. He would become an unthinkable(achinthya) and unwritable concept. So we cannot have that. Superman goes into that yellow state and comes back to the blue spandax wearing supergod.He is so incomprehensible. Even by trying to comprehend it, we limit him or maybe not.



Morrison and moore really know what they do. Ofcourse, i could be overselling the product(dc) and making stupid comparisons. But, i am talking iconography, archetype, symbols... Etc. Ofcourse, the thought is that beings of inaction be they gods or saints will always be at a lower state that men who relentlessly do their "karma" or deeds be it good or bad.That much i know and certain of. Neither the life worldly pleasures nor the life of self denial can bring about nirvana.Knowing that you are bound and still acting is the middle path . Ofcourse, i am not much for religious imagery especially without any deeper themes.

[Robanker]

Manhattan is based on some of the stories of asian continent like buddha, shiva.. Etc and many other saints.He is what you call a "threekaladarshi/one who sees past, present and future at the same time" .

Peering through the vales of time doesn't mean you escape the laws of the universe or karma or causality. It means you know you are bound. As a being of inaction, manhattan is forever bound. Superman as an archetype is bigger than these guys philosophically and thematically. He is krishna, moses.. Etc. He is the chain breaker like fenrir who kills odin himself in ragnarok and shiva who has become "pashupathi/ the lord of the beasts and monsters". He defies causality itself in his finality (the reason he spins around the globe and reverses time) . But, then he won't be human anymore even by the standards of gods. He would become an unthinkable(achinthya) and unwritable concept. So we cannot have that. Superman goes into that yellow state and comes back to the blue spandax wearing supergod.He is so incomprehensible. Even by trying to comprehend it, we limit him or maybe not.



Morrison and moore really know what they do. Ofcourse, i could be overselling the product(dc) and making stupid comparisons. But, i am talking iconography, archetype, symbols... Etc. Ofcourse, the thought is that beings of inaction be they gods or saints will always be at a lower state that men who relentlessly do their "karma" or deeds be it good or bad.That much i know and certain of. Neither the life worldly pleasures nor the life of self denial can bring about nirvana.Knowing that you are bound and still acting is the middle path . Ofcourse, i am not much for religious imagery especially without any deeper themes.

My point was that he just needs to know where they are and he can detonate their atoms if need be. It's never going to work. That's not the kind of story he was designed to be a part of. He was given the tools to make superhero fights irrelevant. Hell, he essentially ended the arms race in Watchman simply by existing.

[j9ac9k]

No. Superman is a brute - his powers are all physical so he had no way to "win" in a fight. Johns of course sidelined or simply overlooked heroes who might have actually been able to affect him - the smart ones who could analyze his energy, the energy manipulators who could mess with him (probably using tachyons) or time travelers who have experience with that kind of thing, etc. But he wasn't telling a story about "Dr Manhattan versus...." He wanted to essentially write a love letter to Superman.

[Flash Gordon]

Yeah, but that's pre crisis and golden age Superman. Were talking about Rebirth Superman, do you think he can do what those versions did?

Rebirth Superman can probably just give him a stern talking to and rely some folksy tale about George Washington.

I'm kidding of course but that's why the idea of Doctor Manhattan vs Superman is so ridiculous. They exist in different narrative worlds, they're not meant to cross over and it does a disservice to both when forced to for the sake of fandom.

Sure, Silver/Bronze Age Superman would be able to figure out some fatal flaw and save the day. That's who Superman was, he does the impossible. His rules are different. His world is 4 colour and bombastic.

[achilles]

Um....didn't Manhattan himself say Superman could beat him? I mean, didn't he see a future....where he couldn't see anything, implying that Superman killed him in that future? I'm a bit confused on that one, haven't followed it too closely.

In any event, since Superman's powers are magic, and so are Manhattan's; if the story needs it to happen, it will. Suddenly, Superman will find a heretofore unknown reserve of power and goodness within and beat Manhattan or something like that.