Do people see captain america more as symbol of freedom than Superman today?

[manwhohaseverything]

You know what kind reactions hydra cap got. Superman on the other hand has had a slew of evil Superman or incompetent once starting from darkknight returns. Yet people largely embrace it. Does this mean cap means more than Superman, today? Your thoughts, if any.

[Restingvoice]

I don't know about freedom... but I'd say the big reaction was on Man of Steel when Superman kills Zod. They don't care about the situation, Superman killing is a no-no, they don't like it, and the make a meme out of him screaming to make fun of the edginess that DC makes Superman kills.

Injustice established quickly that they're in a different universe so gamers don't care, and people noticed Brainiac's ship in the background of SS trailer.

Oh another outrage came from... conservative media? When New 52 made Superman fight (chained himself to defend black people against) the police, but a lot of people like that.

Then there's the talk about immigrant. How Superman is an illegal immigrant and will protect illegal immigrant. Similar sides with the police thing.

A lot of those are based on people's perception on how Superman should be. People who think he shouldn't kill ever, that he should be big good guy always, shouldn't fight authority figure or american law, that kind of stuffs.

[Laufeyson]

To ordinary people, the fact that they watched MCU means that they learned Steve as a good man and being a hero and soldier not for the sake of his country, but for the sake of what the best that his eyes and heart told him. An idea that is very simple, but charming. Now, Superman also has the same charm as Steve, but the problem is DC never show or emphasize that. Instead, DC and WB really wanted to prove that Superman is a misery alien, alone, too strong for his own good and danger to society.

It's not even a wonder, if Captain America is more popular now. Marvel shows Captain America at it's best, the greatest hero of Marvel universe. Not because of his shield. Not because of his super-soldier serum. But for his heart. A heart that made him fight Thanos despite outmatch he is. The heart that made him able to lift Mjolnir. The heart that made him human despite how powerful he is. That's what won Captain America to people around the world, especially the one who eat manga and anime. Because Steve is really the type of hero that they loved and you can see from how famous Captain America in Japan.

Now Superman also can reach that kind of famous if DC and WB can cast aside of how they need to write him as an alien god and instead write him with more focus on how human he is. How he indulge at his power for small child thing. How wondrous his power is. How vast and diverse the world of Superman is. And of course the heroic moment that seemingly natural no matter how you push it. Not because he got power from eating a hair after one cool scene. Not because he just spouts cool things here and there. But because he wanted to do a good thing from his heart and that moved him to do the right thing. That's how you won people on how to sell Superman. Not on his power, but, on his heart that do the right thing for the right people.

It's corny, I know. But to me that's Superman at his best and if Captain America can do it then Superman also can do it.

[Yoda]

Hydra Cap was the “real” Cap. That’s why he got so much blowback. For all the handwringing over Injustice, Suicide Squad or whatever version they are not the real versions. Doesn’t mean they aren’t harmful DKR’s and Kingdom Come are toxic to Superman but they don’t get blowback because they aren’t the “real” one.

[The World]

The evil Superman trope is partially a result of how safe DC plays it with the "main" Superman. Modern writers and fans have limited character and the misguided spinoff versions allow for more risk. Meanwhile main universe Steve is constantly being allowed to take risk pretty much all the time with Winter Soldier/Nomad type affairs.

People don't really care what happens to the "main" Superman therefore if they create an evil alternate version no one really cares either especially if he makes good villain fodder for characters they actually do like.

[Yoda]

The evil Superman trope is partially a result of how safe DC plays it with the "main" Superman. Modern writers and fans have limited character and the misguided spinoff versions allow for more risk. Meanwhile main universe Steve is constantly being allowed to take risk pretty much all the time with Winter Soldier/Nomad type affairs.

People don't really care what happens to the "main" Superman therefore if they create an evil alternate version no one really cares either especially if he makes good villain fodder for characters they actually do like.

There's 4 years of backlash to what people saw happening to the "main" Superman with the New 52. A lot of that was reaction to Poochie-esqe marketing from DC rather than any actual changes, but its similar to what happened with Hydra Cap. When it's the "real" version in the main continuity people care. When it's an Elseworld or something else, there's always more muted backlash if there's any at all. Like with the recent Wonder Woman Dead Earth stuff. It's a blip in the overall scheme of things.

[manwhohaseverything]

There's 4 years of backlash to what people saw happening to the "main" Superman with the New 52. A lot of that was reaction to Poochie-esqe marketing from DC rather than any actual changes, but its similar to what happened with Hydra Cap. When it's the "real" version in the main continuity people care. When it's an Elseworld or something else, there's always more muted backlash if there's any at all. Like with the recent Wonder Woman Dead Earth stuff. It's a blip in the overall scheme of things.

I wouldn't call what happened with new52 superman a good reaction. That was actually a soft target. Only the fans cared enough they raised voice. So, it was easy for them to change back the character because the stake holders weren't there. Moreover, i don't think it's even comparable to cap hydra outrage. You need more than fans that have stake to get the cap hydra kind of reaction and to have the company stop. if the fanbases voices were there evil Superman troupe should have died a thousand deaths by now. The fact is, evil Superman is asked by audiences and its isn't "main" superman base. They seem to be making more money with the evil one than main one. Hence, its redone. If the reverse was true, evil Superman wouldn't exist.

[SiegePerilous02]

There's 4 years of backlash to what people saw happening to the "main" Superman with the New 52. A lot of that was reaction to Poochie-esqe marketing from DC rather than any actual changes, but its similar to what happened with Hydra Cap. When it's the "real" version in the main continuity people care. When it's an Elseworld or something else, there's always more muted backlash if there's any at all. Like with the recent Wonder Woman Dead Earth stuff. It's a blip in the overall scheme of things.

Fans should probably prioritize better, because the Elseworld label doesn't really fit stuff like movies or video games. Which are far more visible and mainstream than comic books can hope to be in this day and age, even the mainline versions, and movies in particular shape how the characters are viewed by the public at large. Repeating stuff like Injustice is far more damaging to the brand in the long run than New 52 Superman could ever hope to be because that was just the same group who had been consuming comics already with very little new fans added into the equation.

All these are imaginary stories anyway. Prioritizing the ever shifting mainstream continuity over other stories (some of which are better than canon) has always been rather silly. It's a fanboy mentality that needs to be broken somewhat. One of the very few good things about the mass layoffs at DC is maybe we'll move more and more away from it.

[Yoda]

I wouldn't call what happened with new52 superman a good reaction. That was actually a soft target. Only the fans cared enough they raised voice. So, it was easy for them to change back the character because the stake holders weren't there. Moreover, i don't think it's even comparable to cap hydra outrage. You need more than fans that have stake to get the cap hydra kind of reaction and to have the company stop. if the fanbases voices were there evil Superman troupe should have died a thousand deaths by now. The fact is, evil Superman is asked by audiences and its "main" superman base. They seem to be making more money with the evil one than main one. Hence, its redone. If the reverse was true, evil Superman wouldn't exist.

What evidence at all is there that there was any sort of non-fan blowback to Hydra Cap that caused a change in plans? From day one of that Marvel more or less telegraphed that it was not a “real” change.

Evil Superman trope hasn’t died because it’s not the “real” Superman. It’s always framed as an alternate version. The one version that even comes close, Snyder’s, isn’t exactly accepted warmly by a lot of people. So I’m not sure what grounds exist to claim that the “evil” takes are more popular than the “real” ones. Secret War or whatever was a pretty big success for Marvel sales wise. Hydra Cap comics sold pretty well.

[Yoda]

Fans should probably prioritize better, because the Elseworld label doesn't really fit stuff like movies or video games. Which are far more visible and mainstream than comic books can hope to be in this day and age, even the mainline versions, and movies in particular shape how the characters are viewed by the public at large. Repeating stuff like Injustice is far more damaging to the brand in the long run than New 52 Superman could ever hope to be because that was just the same group who had been consuming comics already with very little new fans added into the equation.

All these are imaginary stories anyway. Prioritizing the ever shifting mainstream continuity over other stories (some of which are better than canon) has always been rather silly. It's a fanboy mentality that needs to be broken somewhat. One of the very few good things about the mass layoffs at DC is maybe we'll move more and more away from it.

Again, what influence has Injustice had on mainstream Superman’s perception? The game is popular, but a “darker” version of Superman that killed a mass murdering Zod was pretty much a failure. So I’m not seeing the line between “dark/evil” Superman and mainstream success that is polluting anything. And HydraCap is a comic only thing as well and that was the main point kicking this off.

I think you can draw a line between Kingdom Come and Dark Knight Returns to problems with Superman leaking into the mainstream. Because those books stature outside of comics makes them some of the “definitive” takes on Superman.

[SiegePerilous02]

Again, what influence has Injustice had on mainstream Superman’s perception? The game is popular, but a “darker” version of Superman that killed a mass murdering Zod was pretty much a failure. So I’m not seeing the line between “dark/evil” Superman and mainstream success that is polluting anything. And HydraCap is a comic only thing as well and that was the main point kicking this off.

They're doing it again with Suicide Squad* after rejecting pitches for a Superman game, so clearly some higher ups think they can get money out of this by allowing more whereas a straightforward Superman game is apparently not deemed a potential money maker..

*yeah yeah, Brainiac clone or brainwashing or whatever is in place. Launch trailer still shows him burning a dude alive with his heat vision.

[Yoda]

They're doing it again with Suicide Squad* after rejecting pitches for a Superman game, so clearly some higher ups think they can get money out of this by allowing more whereas a straightforward Superman game is apparently not deemed a potential money maker..

*yeah yeah, Brainiac clone or brainwashing or whatever is in place. Launch trailer still shows him burning a dude alive with his heat vision.

My understanding of the history of the game is that they were working on a Suicide Squad game at the time of the first movie. When that bombed they transitioned over to a Justice League game, which again after that movie they bounced back to a Suicide Squad game fighting the entire Justice League as the “villains.” This perception that well it’s only Superman they turn evil doesn’t really track because this game is against the entire Justice League.

If anything the focus on Superman is probably because of his stature and the shock value of having him as a villain here. No one cares about an evil Aquaman because for all the success of his movie he’s still basically a B-List hero at best.

[manwhohaseverything]

What evidence at all is there that there was any sort of non-fan blowback to Hydra Cap that caused a change in plans? From day one of that Marvel more or less telegraphed that it was not a “real” change.

Evil Superman trope hasn’t died because it’s not the “real” Superman. It’s always framed as an alternate version. The one version that even comes close, Snyder’s, isn’t exactly accepted warmly by a lot of people. So I’m not sure what grounds exist to claim that the “evil” takes are more popular than the “real” ones. Secret War or whatever was a pretty big success for Marvel sales wise. Hydra Cap comics sold pretty well.

I mean, it had chris Evans making a reaction himself. That means, the blow back got enough big that they had to make it come to an end.

At this point i believe the "alternate" thing as denial mode than real reasoning. Everything is an alternate take. Exactly, heroic superman that is contemporary to classic view of the character has always had a sizable base. They are small and can be bypassed easily.well, it's easy how i know evil Superman works. They keep making evil Superman. Hence, i know it's must be making money for them. Stopping that would take a real effort. Getting rid of snyder or new52 is easy. Why? Because the stake holders themselves don't want it. But, getting rid of evil Superman isn't. Why? Because the stake holders are elsewhere. Its a different playing field. Hydra cap sold as gimmick. Which if they kept on pushing would have ended badly for them. They knew they wanted a reaction, they got it and they as swiftly pulled it back. On the other hand, if they kept pushing evil Superman. They know nothing will happen. They can hide behind "alternate" thing. While, they make money of from a different base which seems to be growing. Soon, after the main superman seizes to make them money and getting new fans. They can easily replace it as the superman. When even that fails its Finally, obscurity. Its a stupid slippery slope argument. But, i do believe its needs to be stopped at some point. I do believe it to be harder target.

[SiegePerilous02]

My understanding of the history of the game is that they were working on a Suicide Squad game at the time of the first movie. When that bombed they transitioned over to a Justice League game, which again after that movie they bounced back to a Suicide Squad game fighting the entire Justice League as the “villains.” This perception that well it’s only Superman they turn evil doesn’t really track because this game is against the entire Justice League.

If anything the focus on Superman is probably because of his stature and the shock value of having him as a villain here. No one cares about an evil Aquaman because for all the success of his movie he’s still basically a B-List hero at best.

Nobody is saying it's only him, but they are leading with him and he's by far the most visible right now. Why not use Wonder Woman? She's not B-list, especially now, and it would be just as shocking as Superman.

Presumably because on some level they must know it would be a bad look right now as she has another movie coming out. But that's not an issue with Superman. They won't do it with Batman either, powers or no Batman killing someone begging for their life would be shocking, but they won't do it. And yeah, the brainwashed Superman arc for the movies didn't end up happening but the fact that it was even being entertained at all was alarming. They redacted it (maybe? we might still be getting it in some form in the Snyder Cut), but I don't really have much faith in the studio to understand why it was going to be a bad idea.

[manwhohaseverything]

Nobody is saying it's only him, but they are leading with him and he's by far the most visible right now. Why not use Wonder Woman? She's not B-list, especially now, and it would be just as shocking as Superman.

Presumably because on some level they must know it would be a bad look right now as she has another movie coming out. But that's not an issue with Superman. They won't do it with Batman either, powers or no Batman killing someone begging for their life would be shocking, but they won't do it. And yeah, the brainwashed Superman arc for the movies didn't end up happening but the fact that it was even being entertained at all was alarming. They redacted it (maybe? we might still be getting it in some form in the Snyder Cut), but I don't really have much faith in the studio to understand why it was going to be a bad idea.

I also believe the higher ups saw the writing on the wall as far as dark knight returns. They knew they are incompetent with superman. Teh fact that, they accepted and printed darkknight returns story with superman tells you that. I mean,if superman was a money maker for they would have asked miller to replace the character with another .But i do wonder though. Why did they reject the boys pitch with superman and the league? Probably had something that made batman look bad.