Do people see captain america more as symbol of freedom than Superman today?

[manwhohaseverything]

You know what kind reactions hydra cap got. Superman on the other hand has had a slew of evil Superman or incompetent once starting from darkknight returns. Yet people largely embrace it. Does this mean cap means more than Superman, today? Your thoughts, if any.

[Restingvoice]

I don't know about freedom... but I'd say the big reaction was on Man of Steel when Superman kills Zod. They don't care about the situation, Superman killing is a no-no, they don't like it, and the make a meme out of him screaming to make fun of the edginess that DC makes Superman kills.

Injustice established quickly that they're in a different universe so gamers don't care, and people noticed Brainiac's ship in the background of SS trailer.

Oh another outrage came from... conservative media? When New 52 made Superman fight (chained himself to defend black people against) the police, but a lot of people like that.

Then there's the talk about immigrant. How Superman is an illegal immigrant and will protect illegal immigrant. Similar sides with the police thing.

A lot of those are based on people's perception on how Superman should be. People who think he shouldn't kill ever, that he should be big good guy always, shouldn't fight authority figure or american law, that kind of stuffs.

[Laufeyson]

To ordinary people, the fact that they watched MCU means that they learned Steve as a good man and being a hero and soldier not for the sake of his country, but for the sake of what the best that his eyes and heart told him. An idea that is very simple, but charming. Now, Superman also has the same charm as Steve, but the problem is DC never show or emphasize that. Instead, DC and WB really wanted to prove that Superman is a misery alien, alone, too strong for his own good and danger to society.

It's not even a wonder, if Captain America is more popular now. Marvel shows Captain America at it's best, the greatest hero of Marvel universe. Not because of his shield. Not because of his super-soldier serum. But for his heart. A heart that made him fight Thanos despite outmatch he is. The heart that made him able to lift Mjolnir. The heart that made him human despite how powerful he is. That's what won Captain America to people around the world, especially the one who eat manga and anime. Because Steve is really the type of hero that they loved and you can see from how famous Captain America in Japan.

Now Superman also can reach that kind of famous if DC and WB can cast aside of how they need to write him as an alien god and instead write him with more focus on how human he is. How he indulge at his power for small child thing. How wondrous his power is. How vast and diverse the world of Superman is. And of course the heroic moment that seemingly natural no matter how you push it. Not because he got power from eating a hair after one cool scene. Not because he just spouts cool things here and there. But because he wanted to do a good thing from his heart and that moved him to do the right thing. That's how you won people on how to sell Superman. Not on his power, but, on his heart that do the right thing for the right people.

It's corny, I know. But to me that's Superman at his best and if Captain America can do it then Superman also can do it.

[Yoda]

Hydra Cap was the “real” Cap. That’s why he got so much blowback. For all the handwringing over Injustice, Suicide Squad or whatever version they are not the real versions. Doesn’t mean they aren’t harmful DKR’s and Kingdom Come are toxic to Superman but they don’t get blowback because they aren’t the “real” one.

[The World]

The evil Superman trope is partially a result of how safe DC plays it with the "main" Superman. Modern writers and fans have limited character and the misguided spinoff versions allow for more risk. Meanwhile main universe Steve is constantly being allowed to take risk pretty much all the time with Winter Soldier/Nomad type affairs.

People don't really care what happens to the "main" Superman therefore if they create an evil alternate version no one really cares either especially if he makes good villain fodder for characters they actually do like.

[Yoda]

The evil Superman trope is partially a result of how safe DC plays it with the "main" Superman. Modern writers and fans have limited character and the misguided spinoff versions allow for more risk. Meanwhile main universe Steve is constantly being allowed to take risk pretty much all the time with Winter Soldier/Nomad type affairs.

People don't really care what happens to the "main" Superman therefore if they create an evil alternate version no one really cares either especially if he makes good villain fodder for characters they actually do like.

There's 4 years of backlash to what people saw happening to the "main" Superman with the New 52. A lot of that was reaction to Poochie-esqe marketing from DC rather than any actual changes, but its similar to what happened with Hydra Cap. When it's the "real" version in the main continuity people care. When it's an Elseworld or something else, there's always more muted backlash if there's any at all. Like with the recent Wonder Woman Dead Earth stuff. It's a blip in the overall scheme of things.

[Cyberstrike]

To ordinary people, the fact that they watched MCU means that they learned Steve as a good man and being a hero and soldier not for the sake of his country, but for the sake of what the best that his eyes and heart told him. An idea that is very simple, but charming. Now, Superman also has the same charm as Steve, but the problem is DC never show or emphasize that. Instead, DC and WB really wanted to prove that Superman is a misery alien, alone, too strong for his own good and danger to society.

It's not even a wonder, if Captain America is more popular now. Marvel shows Captain America at it's best, the greatest hero of Marvel universe. Not because of his shield. Not because of his super-soldier serum. But for his heart. A heart that made him fight Thanos despite outmatch he is. The heart that made him able to lift Mjolnir. The heart that made him human despite how powerful he is. That's what won Captain America to people around the world, especially the one who eat manga and anime. Because Steve is really the type of hero that they loved and you can see from how famous Captain America in Japan.

Now Superman also can reach that kind of famous if DC and WB can cast aside of how they need to write him as an alien god and instead write him with more focus on how human he is. How he indulge at his power for small child thing. How wondrous his power is. How vast and diverse the world of Superman is. And of course the heroic moment that seemingly natural no matter how you push it. Not because he got power from eating a hair after one cool scene. Not because he just spouts cool things here and there. But because he wanted to do a good thing from his heart and that moved him to do the right thing. That's how you won people on how to sell Superman. Not on his power, but, on his heart that do the right thing for the right people.

It's corny, I know. But to me that's Superman at his best and if Captain America can do it then Superman also can do it.

It's been said by many pop culture critics that best Superman films in the last decade are Marvel's Captain America trilogy and I have to agree with that.

My favorite scene in all of the MCU is in Captain America: The Winter Solider when Sam wants to help Cap and Black Widow and Cap says: "No, Sam you got out for a reason" and Wilson's reply is "Dude, Captain America needs my help I can't think of a better reason to get back in."

Remember that Sam Wilson at that point in the MCU has absolutely NOTHING to gain by helping Captain America and the Black Widow. There is no guarantee that he'll be an Avenger, or get a lot of money from Iron Man. He knows at this point he could be arrested and sent to prison or at worst he will be killed on site. Yet he's willing to risk his freedom and his life because he knows that Captain America needs his help and that it's the right thing to do. That is what characters like Captain America and Superman mean to me they appeal to our better natures and give us the courage to stand up and help others for no reward of any kind just because it's the right thing to do, this is something we NEED A LOT MORE OF THAT IN THIS WORLD NOT LESS.

[Powerboy]

To ordinary people, the fact that they watched MCU means that they learned Steve as a good man and being a hero and soldier not for the sake of his country, but for the sake of what the best that his eyes and heart told him. An idea that is very simple, but charming. Now, Superman also has the same charm as Steve, but the problem is DC never show or emphasize that. Instead, DC and WB really wanted to prove that Superman is a misery alien, alone, too strong for his own good and danger to society.

It's not even a wonder, if Captain America is more popular now. Marvel shows Captain America at it's best, the greatest hero of Marvel universe. Not because of his shield. Not because of his super-soldier serum. But for his heart. A heart that made him fight Thanos despite outmatch he is. The heart that made him able to lift Mjolnir. The heart that made him human despite how powerful he is. That's what won Captain America to people around the world, especially the one who eat manga and anime. Because Steve is really the type of hero that they loved and you can see from how famous Captain America in Japan.

Now Superman also can reach that kind of famous if DC and WB can cast aside of how they need to write him as an alien god and instead write him with more focus on how human he is. How he indulge at his power for small child thing. How wondrous his power is. How vast and diverse the world of Superman is. And of course the heroic moment that seemingly natural no matter how you push it. Not because he got power from eating a hair after one cool scene. Not because he just spouts cool things here and there. But because he wanted to do a good thing from his heart and that moved him to do the right thing. That's how you won people on how to sell Superman. Not on his power, but, on his heart that do the right thing for the right people.

It's corny, I know. But to me that's Superman at his best and if Captain America can do it then Superman also can do it.

It's a shame this post has gotten only one reply so far besides this one because it's probably the best post in the thread. Everything about Cap in the movies, especially the first one, emphasizes why he has the greatest heart of them all and is so dedicated to doing the right thing. If you were already a comics fan, this is the essence of the Cap you know. If you don't know the comics but have just heard the name Captain America, the movie forms your opinion of who he is.

Contrast that to the Superman the DCEU gives us. Yes, he's a good guy. Yes, he means well. But we only get glimpses of that amongst mostly negative things.

We are confused as to why Superman is so highly regarded by B v S and why the world is in ruin because of his death. We catch only glimpses of that inspirational Superman, sometimes in newspaper clippings that flash by at several per second.

Meanwhile, we see an entire series of movies highlighting why Cap is the inspirational hero who should be our ideal while still being a real person.

As someone else said, there also seems a more solid and planned out agreement creatively about who Cap is and how he should be presented and it melds well into the very premise and essence of who he is as a character. Not only does there seem to be no agreed upon creative consensus about who Superman is but, often, his presentation seems to shy away from the essence of who he is or become a parody of his essence.

There's also the factor that Captain America never really loses his origin. It's always steeped in World War II. He's always the guy whose formative years were the 1920s, 30s and 40s. It may be a somewhat updated version of the era but it still is somewhat that era. No matter when he returns, his story is of a man out of his proper time but still holding to those ideals. Superman loses that crucial factor of being from the time that, in the real world, formed his creation to begin with. So you end up with huge alterations or little explanation for some things that are kept. Not that Cap hasn't had major retcons, being frozen and awakening in the modern world of the 1960s to whenever being the biggest but he still has the foundation of WWII.

[Agent Z]

It's a shame this post has gotten only one reply so far besides this one because it's probably the best post in the thread. Everything about Cap in the movies, especially the first one, emphasizes why he has the greatest heart of them all and is so dedicated to doing the right thing. If you were already a comics fan, this is the essence of the Cap you know. If you don't know the comics but have just heard the name Captain America, the movie forms your opinion of who he is.

Contrast that to the Superman the DCEU gives us. Yes, he's a good guy. Yes, he means well. But we only get glimpses of that amongst mostly negative things.

We are confused as to why Superman is so highly regarded by B v S and why the world is in ruin because of his death. We catch only glimpses of that inspirational Superman, sometimes in newspaper clippings that flash by at several per second.

Meanwhile, we see an entire series of movies highlighting why Cap is the inspirational hero who should be our ideal while still being a real person.

As someone else said, there also seems a more solid and planned out agreement creatively about who Cap is and how he should be presented and it melds well into the very premise and essence of who he is as a character. Not only does there seem to be no agreed upon creative consensus about who Superman is but, often, his presentation seems to shy away from the essence of who he is or become a parody of his essence.

There's also the factor that Captain America never really loses his origin. It's always steeped in World War II. He's always the guy whose formative years were the 1920s, 30s and 40s. It may be a somewhat updated version of the era but it still is somewhat that era. No matter when he returns, his story is of a man out of his proper time but still holding to those ideals. Superman loses that crucial factor of being from the time that, in the real world, formed his creation to begin with. So you end up with huge alterations or little explanation for some things that are kept. Not that Cap hasn't had major retcons, being frozen and awakening in the modern world of the 1960s to whenever being the biggest but he still has the foundation of WWII.

The first thing we see Cavill's Superman doing is rescuing people from an oil fire when they almost get missed by a helicopter. We are then shown him standing up for a woman who is being sexually harassed, saving Lois after she is attacked by the ship's security system, trying to negotiate with Zod etc.

There is plenty positive to focus on in Superman in the movies but people would rather complain about the "darkness" (that isn't even that dark, I actually see people comparing him to Ultraman or the Homelander which is just laughable). Like with the premise of this thread, it seems Superman fans love complaining about him more than they like the character himself. And if you think this is an exaggeration, just look at how quickly they turned on him after he lost one fight to Supergirl in her own show.

[manwhohaseverything]

The first thing we see Cavill's Superman doing is rescuing people from an oil fire when they almost get missed by a helicopter. We are then shown him standing up for a woman who is being sexually harassed, saving Lois after she is attacked by the ship's security system, trying to negotiate with Zod etc.

There is plenty positive to focus on in Superman in the movies but people would rather complain about the "darkness" (that isn't even that dark, I actually see people comparing him to Ultraman or the Homelander which is just laughable). Like with the premise of this thread, it seems Superman fans love complaining about him more than they like the character himself. And if you think this is an exaggeration, just look at how quickly they turned on him after he lost one fight to Supergirl in her own show.

Look mate, We get it superman saved people in man of steel.The movie served feeding you what you want.But,for many it didn't. Besides, that's not even the point. Point of these threads was to show that superman fans in general pick soft targets. They don't pick on things their own size like the company itself, they pick sizeable fanbases like snyder fans or newh52. They don't put their opinions, money or energies to shutdown what ought to be shut down like stooge superman, dictator superman, crybaby superman... Etc.When these things come out they generally make excuses "alternate" take so its not really superman. When in fact it is meant to be superman and everything is an alternate take. They put their effort into anything that's soft like the snyder movies or new52 or whatever that changes the formula a bit because They know they can win. If those who are gonna advocate for censoring content or saying "this shouldn't be done with superman or this superman story shouldn't exist". Then the prior should be what should be focused on not the later.

As for "people should be happy with what they get", they are not.They want more or different. You can call for the release of snyder cut and run a campaign(all the power to you) . But, i can't advocate for a working class superman based on siegel and shuster's. Why?

[SiegePerilous02]

The first thing we see Cavill's Superman doing is rescuing people from an oil fire when they almost get missed by a helicopter. We are then shown him standing up for a woman who is being sexually harassed, saving Lois after she is attacked by the ship's security system, trying to negotiate with Zod etc.

There is plenty positive to focus on in Superman in the movies but people would rather complain about the "darkness" (that isn't even that dark, I actually see people comparing him to Ultraman or the Homelander which is just laughable). Like with the premise of this thread, it seems Superman fans love complaining about him more than they like the character himself. And if you think this is an exaggeration, just look at how quickly they turned on him after he lost one fight to Supergirl in her own show.

I feel like people aren't denying that the positives are there so much as feeling that it's almost a pittance compared to the darker stuff (and even if it is a dream sequence, stuff like Superman burning people alive with his heat vision IS some heavy imagery in a movie that had to be trimmed down from an R rating that studio still wanted people to bring their kids to see). MoS is cited, on here at least, as being solid but with flaws, and had potential we would have liked to see develop in a different way. Most of it comes from BvS, which is a deliberately bleak movie where we still don't know this Superman that much to care about what he's going through. One reviewer on another forum said in a not so kind way "this movie was as exhausting as a late night argument with your spouse," and people don't generally feel that way if the positives outweigh the negatives. As a rule, I think people LIKED the examples you just posted, but the issue was there wasn't as much of it and it gets drowned out by the rest of it. You can't just keep pointing out these scenes that we already know about and say we're difficult to please, as if there isn't some valid criticisms to be had.

I also don't think audiences turned on Superman specifically in Supergirl, more the writing of how he was handled. Nobody reasonable wants Superman upstaging Kara in her own show, but the scene (in a show that doesn't have a reputation for subtle, nuanced writing) where he says she's a better hero than him can come across as 100% what the writers of the show want us to take away as truth and not just him being humble.

[Powerboy]

The first thing we see Cavill's Superman doing is rescuing people from an oil fire when they almost get missed by a helicopter. We are then shown him standing up for a woman who is being sexually harassed, saving Lois after she is attacked by the ship's security system, trying to negotiate with Zod etc.

There is plenty positive to focus on in Superman in the movies but people would rather complain about the "darkness" (that isn't even that dark, I actually see people comparing him to Ultraman or the Homelander which is just laughable). Like with the premise of this thread, it seems Superman fans love complaining about him more than they like the character himself. And if you think this is an exaggeration, just look at how quickly they turned on him after he lost one fight to Supergirl in her own show.

Because you start with stuff like the oil fire but then you have stuff like showing pretty much no concern for bystanders in the big fight or even trying to move things away from them. Cap is shown doing every possible thing to save people. It gives a very different overall impression.

The problem is that people have an ideal of who Superman is or should be. Snyder Superman was disliked while CW Superman was liked even though, in fairness, a lot of people said they liked the Reeve Superman but the CW Superman was just a cardboard copy of him. Then the JL Superman kicked everybody's butt and became, at least physically, their idea of Superman while CW Superman lost a fight to a guuuuuuurrrrll and he suddenly was a horrible Superman.

Sure, some of it is silly. Some of it should have been predicted by the creative staff. The Supergirl show is about Supergirl. She is the "Superman" of that setting while he is the "Supergirl" of that setting. That is to say, she's the main deal and all other characters are there to support her.

I think that, with the movies, we see what we would expect to see in the early parts. Clark Kent rescues bus. Clark rescues oil workers. But we get a very waffling Superman who isn't sure if he even wants to be Superman. That's all potentially a great story. But yeah, maybe not one people want from Superman. Oppose this to a Cap who has a driving desire to help people and never really waffles on what he wants to do. He doesn't really even have such a high opinion of himself that he doubts he can live up to it. "There's nothing special about me. I'm just a kid from Brooklyn". Yeah, a kid that throws himself on grenades and so on. He's quite special.

I'm not even implying that one is a good story and the other is not. But is this what most people want from this character. Imagine a moping Captain America who gets the abilities but then isn't sure he wants to be Captain America, wonders if maybe it's a matter of whether he owes people or doesn't instead of focusing on what it is his nature to do and doesn't even think about saving bystanders. And, yes. That Superman was inexperienced. He needed a Cap just telling him what to do in a firefight. Neither a good story or a bad story. Just, again, is it what most people want from Superman?

I would say that, on a core level. JL Superman is what people want. Powerful, confident and sure that this is who he is. Now they just need to pull that off without making it feel superficial and cardboard.

[Guy1]

There is plenty positive to focus on in Superman in the movies but people would rather complain about the "darkness" (that isn't even that dark, I actually see people comparing him to Ultraman)..

What's wrong with that?

[jackolover]

To ordinary people, the fact that they watched MCU means that they learned Steve as a good man and being a hero and soldier not for the sake of his country, but for the sake of what the best that his eyes and heart told him. An idea that is very simple, but charming. Now, Superman also has the same charm as Steve, but the problem is DC never show or emphasize that. Instead, DC and WB really wanted to prove that Superman is a misery alien, alone, too strong for his own good and danger to society.

It's not even a wonder, if Captain America is more popular now. Marvel shows Captain America at it's best, the greatest hero of Marvel universe. Not because of his shield. Not because of his super-soldier serum. But for his heart. A heart that made him fight Thanos despite outmatch he is. The heart that made him able to lift Mjolnir. The heart that made him human despite how powerful he is. That's what won Captain America to people around the world, especially the one who eat manga and anime. Because Steve is really the type of hero that they loved and you can see from how famous Captain America in Japan.

Now Superman also can reach that kind of famous if DC and WB can cast aside of how they need to write him as an alien god and instead write him with more focus on how human he is. How he indulge at his power for small child thing. How wondrous his power is. How vast and diverse the world of Superman is. And of course the heroic moment that seemingly natural no matter how you push it. Not because he got power from eating a hair after one cool scene. Not because he just spouts cool things here and there. But because he wanted to do a good thing from his heart and that moved him to do the right thing. That's how you won people on how to sell Superman. Not on his power, but, on his heart that do the right thing for the right people.

It's corny, I know. But to me that's Superman at his best and if Captain America can do it then Superman also can do it.

I think it would be worth at least addressing the elephant in the room about What Superman stands for. It says on the old TV series he is for “Truth, justice and the American way”, but there is so much injustice in society, that if Superman showed up for The George Floyd, or Jacob Blake type situations, that would be controversial. That is what I want DC to confront with Superman in the middle of that.

Because, you see, DC have this Superman. When he first appeared he punched wife beaters, but never progressed further than that. If there is injustice in the world in America, he should pick a side. DC has, like Marvel, side-stepped the moral issues of the times. I can rationalise the Marvel Earth super heroes keeping away from injustice, because they are too close to it. But Superman? He’s this outsider, and he doesn’t have a horse in this race. Superman can walk up to these situations, put his hand up to stop the bullets, the brick walls, the loss of outreach, and dictate his own moral in those situations, because America can’t kick him out. Superman can go or stay where he likes and no one can stop him.

I know, as Clark Kent, Clark does get viewed as human with a sensitivity not to rock the boat. But this is Superman. He’s seen how humans make it hard for other humans, and it doesn’t have to be this endemic. All around the world, it’s the same problem. But at least in one country, for”The American way”. Superman could do something there.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I think it would be worth at least addressing the elephant in the room about What Superman stands for. It says on the old TV series he is for “Truth, justice and the American way”, but there is so much injustice in society, that if Superman showed up for The George Floyd, or Jacob Blake type situations, that would be controversial. That is what I want DC to confront with Superman in the middle of that.

Because, you see, DC have this Superman. When he first appeared he punched wife beaters, but never progressed further than that. If there is injustice in the world in America, he should pick a side. DC has, like Marvel, side-stepped the moral issues of the times. I can rationalise the Marvel Earth super heroes keeping away from injustice, because they are too close to it. But Superman? He’s this outsider, and he doesn’t have a horse in this race. Superman can walk up to these situations, put his hand up to stop the bullets, the brick walls, the loss of outreach, and dictate his own moral in those situations, because America can’t kick him out. Superman can go or stay where he likes and no one can stop him.

I know, as Clark Kent, Clark does get viewed as human with a sensitivity not to rock the boat. But this is Superman. He’s seen how humans make it hard for other humans, and it doesn’t have to be this endemic. All around the world, it’s the same problem. But at least in one country, for”The American way”. Superman could do something there.

The thing is that Superman standing for "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" was introduced in the 40s and 50s, it wasn't part of his character when originally introduced. And making Superman an embodiment of the "American Patriarch" and a substitute father figure for generations of young comics readers (many of whom grew up to become Dan Jurgens, Roger Stern, Mark Waid, John Byrne among others) has hampered the character rather than helped it. They approach the character (not all of them, some more than others, Waid above all) with too much reverence and that freezes the ideas one can have about Supes.

Captain America can embody that more honestly than Superman because of his ties to actual history, but Superman can't do that because there's no history to him.

To me Superman is interesting for his character. He's got a real interior dilemma to him. He spent his childhood thinking he was human (at least in more recent versions) then in adolescence, he learned he came from Krypton and that he had these powers. He has to navigate multiple different versions of himself, he has to control his powers, he's from Krypton but he got his powers thanks to the Yellow Sun on Earth, so Superman himself is not wholly Kryptonian or wholly Earth, because he would not have those powers on Krypton. That should be what Superman stories and movies should focus on, constantly asking "Who is Superman?" because the character himself would be asking that, and he did ask that all the time in the strongest stories in the Silver Age, Bronze Age, Post-Crisis era.