Do people see captain america more as symbol of freedom than Superman today?

[The World]

There's 4 years of backlash to what people saw happening to the "main" Superman with the New 52. A lot of that was reaction to Poochie-esqe marketing from DC rather than any actual changes, but its similar to what happened with Hydra Cap. When it's the "real" version in the main continuity people care. When it's an Elseworld or something else, there's always more muted backlash if there's any at all. Like with the recent Wonder Woman Dead Earth stuff. It's a blip in the overall scheme of things.

Eh I guess when I say people I mean in a more general audience way. Yeah there was much bemoaning and crying about N52 Superman who dared wander outside of the sacred grounds of John Byrne but at the end of the day it was mostly the same inter-Superman kvetching that's been going about everyone's personal idea of what Superman is suppose to be except this time it was the Post-Crisis fans complaining about things changing. But Byrne's take doesn't exactly light the world on fire anymore, he's just the current and pretty bland standard these days for a character who's often left trying to figure out how to be relevant.

I'd argue the main version of Cap these days is the movie version but beyond that it did capture a wider attention than what N52 Supes did like manwhohaseverything pointed out even Chris Evans picked up on it and had a wtf moment. It was kind of surreal when you know comics have these swerve twist that either get undone or are revealed to be a hoax all the time but this particular event struck a cord with people probably because Cap at that point had risen to mean something to people via the movies in a way Superman just don't anymore and probably hasn't in decades. I personally found the reaction to Hydracap stupid but it is what it is.

[manwhohaseverything]

On the flip side, they are pushing black adam as this anti hero version of goldenage superman the champion of the oppressed. But, with that edge to push things too far morality wise.

I think with the rocks charisma this guy is going to lightup things. Too bad we didn't have a guy with that kind of charisma as superman.Too bad this guy isn't the hero we need.
"5000 years ago kahndaq was melting pot of wealth, power and magic. Yet, most of us had nothing but chains. Kahdaq needed a hero. Too bad, they got me. I have a knack for destroying bullies".

[The World]

On the flip side, they are pushing black adam as this anti hero version of goldenage superman the champion of the oppressed. But, with that edge to push things too far morality wise.

I think with the rocks charisma this guy is going to lightup things. Too bad we didn't have a guy with that kind of charisma as superman.Too bad this guy isn't the hero we need.

Yep thats about the long and short of it. People seeing all the things Superman is too scared to use anymore and using it in their own stories. *sigh*

[SiegePerilous02]

I also believe the higher ups saw the writing on the wall as far as dark knight returns. They knew they are incompetent with superman. Teh fact that, they accepted and printed darkknight returns story with superman tells you that. I mean,if superman was a money maker for they would have asked miller to replace the character with another .But i do wonder though. Why did they reject the boys pitch with superman and the league? Probably had something that made batman look bad.

I'd be lying if I said I wish the Superman parts of TDKR weren't in there, but I can see why they'd publish it. It was different and controversial at the time, but it got attention and critical acclaim. And Superman shouldn't be protected at the expense of something that has artistic merit. it was a risk that paid off at the time for that one story. I think the main issue is that there wasn't much surrounding it at the time to contradict it and make Superman cool. The experimentation of the 80s mostly passed by him because what was in at the time didn't line up with how Superman was traditionally viewed.

John Byrne's run was hot **** at the time, but they were appealing to 80s Marvel fanboys so using a hot Marvel creator to relaunch Superman is a no-brainer and it got results. At the time, i think it was more popular than Miller's Year One, right? And it saved Superman's sales. But the latter has stood the test of time better. Batman got the combined stuff of TDKR, Year One, the Burton movies and BTAS shortly after. I think in the long run, had Miller and Gerber's Man of Steel pitch been accepted, the character might be in a slightly better place than he is currently. Mainly because it would have been Miller in his prime, and most importantly Gerber would be co-piloting and we doubtlessly would have had a comic that aged better on a craft level than Byrne's MOS has. Perez's Wonder Woman is a similar 80s superhero comic, but I think Karen Berger as editor elevated that more than Byrne's Superman stuff.

[manwhohaseverything]

I'd be lying if I said I wish the Superman parts of TDKR weren't in there, but I can see why they'd publish it. It was different and controversial at the time, but it got attention and critical acclaim. And Superman shouldn't be protected at the expense of something that has artistic merit. it was a risk that paid off at the time for that one story. I think the main issue is that there wasn't much surrounding it at the time to contradict it and make Superman cool. The experimentation of the 80s mostly passed by him because what was in at the time didn't line up with how Superman was traditionally viewed.

I am not either. I am just saying that's the general mentality of business side. I just think suits would have been reluctant or struck it down. We would have heard more stories about how reluctant they were. If at all it had gone through. I believe, it was easy for them to green light.Also, byrne superman had impacted intial timm's view on the character as well. Who knows what or whom this evil Superman stuff is going to influence?

[manwhohaseverything]

Finally, i saw a youtuber make a video. I must have missed jax blade's video.

[Jim Kelly]

You Americans are so divided among yourselves, I doubt you could all agree on what is your symbol of freedom. In the U.S.A., "freedom" is one of those hot potato political words.

For me a better symbol of freedom would be Pippi Långstrump. She does her own thing, doesn't conform. She's free of convention.

[Agent Z]

You know what kind reactions hydra cap got. Superman on the other hand has had a slew of evil Superman or incompetent once starting from darkknight returns. Yet people largely embrace it. Does this mean cap means more than Superman, today? Your thoughts, if any.

What world are you living in where evil Superman is largely embraced?

[Agent Z]

On the flip side, they are pushing black adam as this anti hero version of goldenage superman the champion of the oppressed. But, with that edge to push things too far morality wise.

I think with the rocks charisma this guy is going to lightup things. Too bad we didn't have a guy with that kind of charisma as superman.Too bad this guy isn't the hero we need.
"5000 years ago kahndaq was melting pot of wealth, power and magic. Yet, most of us had nothing but chains. Kahdaq needed a hero. Too bad, they got me. I have a knack for destroying bullies".

Nothing in this clip states Black Adam, a character who has been a villain for most of his existence, will be the champion of the oppressed or act anything like a Superman who wasn't an outright villain.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I think the main difference between Captain America and Superman has to do with consensus. There's a consensus about Captain America among publishers, editors, audiences, producers, writers, directors that isn't there with Superman.

The main difference between Captain America and Superman is that Cap is tied to history...he's rooted in World War II and the fact that World War II is the moment America became the global superpower, and also is the last consensually agreed upon 'good war' by everyone across the spectrum. Him being thawed in ice and returned to the present has a lot of drama about how far America has strayed from that moment of consensus. But everyone does agree on that consensus. So that means that there's never an issue about Captain America's basic core because everyone agrees on that.

With Superman, there's a breakdown in consensus. He's not really tied to history. He's purely fantastic for one thing. And the fantasies Superman is tied to, don't have a consensus anymore. Is Superman a Kryptonian among Humans? Is Kal-El the real guy, and Clark Kent the disguise? Should Superman be a pure icon and Jesus-allegory and actually become a for-real divinity? Should Superman be treated like a character? IS Superman's great power and abilities make him inherently unrelatable? Is the Norman Rockwell-ness of Superman's origins with the Kents at Smallville no longer believable in a 21st Century setting? There's just so much stuff everyone disagrees on fundamentally. And that disagreement, that lack of consensus is what has hampered Superman in comparison to Captain America.

With Captain America there's a core to him that audiences can relate to and accept..."punching Hitler=good" whereas that's not the case with Superman. I mean Lex Luthor used to stand in for corrupt politicians, dictators, and tyrants (with his last name sounding vaguely German and having the same number of initials as Hitler, and trade away the vowels of i and e with u and o, and you almost have a perfect anagram) but subsequently writers have built up Luthor as this humanist and so on, to the point that a lot of writers and fans think he's a more impressive and aspirational character than the Man of Steel. That's never gonna happen with Captain America's enemies (Red Skull, HYDRA) so his stories and setup work the way it was intended to work, and supposed to work.

[Pinsir]

What does Captain America have to do with freedom?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What does Captain America have to do with freedom?

He was created by two Jewish-American artists as an explicit anti-Nazi propaganda at a time when America was still isolationist and well before America entered World War 2 against Nazi Germany.

He was explicitly a political superhero espousing the cause of freedom and democracy.

[manwhohaseverything]

Nothing in this clip states Black Adam, a character who has been a villain for most of his existence, will be the champion of the oppressed or act anything like a Superman who wasn't an outright villain.

Did i say he would?Let the zorro in the character come through. Superman needs to have a charisma and be the man of action, atleast for me. This intensity is what i expect from the champion of the oppressed . A champion should like one, not wet towel. If you don't see the "most of us had nothing" thing, chains thing, bullies thing, truth and justice thing... Etc. Then i can't help you. That entire promo had goldenage superman.Then he subverts it by saying he isn't gonna be the hero.

He was created by two Jewish-American artists as an explicit anti-Nazi propaganda at a time when America was still isolationist and well before America entered World War 2 against Nazi Germany.

He was explicitly a political superhero espousing the cause of freedom and democracy.

This and Movies did a decent job of portraying the soldier with convictions. If not anything else.

What world are you living in where evil Superman is largely embraced?

He is embraced by those who like to see their favourites beatup a bad guy who is superman. Evil Superman keeps making money. So much so they keep remaking him.

[SiegePerilous02]

Nothing in this clip states Black Adam, a character who has been a villain for most of his existence, will be the champion of the oppressed or act anything like a Superman who wasn't an outright villain.

I think what manwhohaseverything meant was Black Adam is acting as a dark mirror who comes from a similar place to Superman but has gone wrong and is taken to villainous extremes. "He who fights monsters," etc. Which is not something that would not happen to a mainstream Superman. Not that this is literally what Superman should be like, but some of his charisma and core ideals (albeit twisted) are showing up in another character where they should be in the main himself.

Going down Black Adam's path would be a more interesting take on "Evil Superman" if we have to have one than what we typically get.

[manwhohaseverything]

I think what manwhohaseverything meant was Black Adam is acting as a dark mirror who comes from a similar place to Superman but has gone wrong and is taken to villainous extremes. "He who fights monsters," etc. Which is not something that would not happen to a mainstream Superman. Not that this is literally what Superman should be like, but some of his charisma and core ideals (albeit twisted) are showing up in another character where they should be in the main himself.

Going down Black Adam's path would be a more interesting take on "Evil Superman" if we have to have one than what we typically get.

Thank you, that's what i mean. I just want the character to feel like he has passion, conviction and intensity.You know superman being badass.