Do people see captain america more as symbol of freedom than Superman today?

[Pinsir]

This and Movies did a decent job of portraying the soldier with convictions. If not anything else.

No he isn't, he went to work for an organization that tried to nuke New York city and in Civil War he went rogue and attacks German police officers.

[manwhohaseverything]

No he isn't, he went to work for an organization that tried to nuke New York city and in Civil War he went rogue and attacks German police officers.

The Shield? Please, the guy was making sense of the world itself,he had survivors guilt and was going through what these guys do. Sheild gave him a purpose and ofcourse they are "good" guys. So he decided to work with them. He was pretty distrustful at the start of winter soldiers. Moreover, nick fury and natasha might have had something to do with it. And nick had not authorised the weapons launch. Overall, the arc was of soldier coming to terms with this.

"soldiers don't give yourselves to brutes. Solders! Don't fight for slavery! Fight for liberty! "
He went rogue because of both personal and because of the ideal he stands for. Germen policemen attacked him. Its what they signed up for. You don't expect him to not defend himself. Do you?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

No he isn't, he went to work for an organization that tried to nuke New York city

If you mean the World Security Council and SHIELD, in Avengers 1 he starts dissenting when he finds that SHIELD have a cache of HYDRA weapons. He knew nothing about the nuke...and it was Nick Fury who tried to stop that and failed.

In The Winter Soldier, Cap goes rogue and at the end he insists that SHIELD disband and make all files public.

...and in Civil War he went rogue and attacks German police officers.

Considering what German police officers do historically, what makes you think that's a dispositive.

[Pinsir]

He was created by two Jewish-American artists as an explicit anti-Nazi propaganda at a time when America was still isolationist and well before America entered World War 2 against Nazi Germany.

He was explicitly a political superhero espousing the cause of freedom and democracy.

So, like most Golden Age superheroes? I mean Wonder Woman's got him beat by not only being anti-Nazi, but by advocating for the manumission and advancement of people within the country the creators reside in (women's liberation).

That being said, I don't think Wonder Woman is a feminist film or a film about liberty, even if her distant origins might be and since I know the question is about the MCU Captain America, a film franchise that has little to do with the advancement of liberty, I don't really see the point.

[Agent Z]

He is embraced by those who like to see their favourites beatup a bad guy who is superman. Evil Superman keeps making money. So much so they keep remaking him.

The only Evil Superman that has actually made money is Injustice and that alone was not enough for the game to be successful. The people who are obsessed with seeing Superman get beat are an obnoxious, loud minority.

The premise of this thread and the complaints about an evil Superman dominating pop culture is largely unjustified. The vast majority of his depictions have him as heroic.

[manwhohaseverything]

So, like most Golden Age superheroes? I mean Wonder Woman's got him beat by not only being anti-Nazi, but by advocating for the manumission and advancement of people within the country the creators reside in (females).

That being said, I don't think Wonder Woman is a feminist film or a film about liberty, even if her distant origins might be and since I know the question is about the MCU Captain America, a film franchise that has little to do with the advancement of liberty, I don't really see the point.

You can say all you want about mcu movies not being about advancing liberty and all that. But captain america drew a reaction for people with the whole cap hydra thing.So,the point is moot. People in general see something in cap. It's not, whether or not you see it. The topic is about absolute apathy being directed at superman as a stooge, dictator... Etc.

The only Evil Superman that has actually made money is Injustice and that alone was not enough for the game to be successful. The people who are obsessed with seeing Superman get beat are an obnoxious, loud minority.

The premise of this thread and the complaints about an evil Superman dominating pop culture is largely unjustified. The vast majority of his depictions have him as heroic.

You can say that. But, i don't think so. I might not have numbers. But i certainly can see result/effect and infer the cause. Evil Superman keeps getting made right from the times of darkknight returns. Projects like that are green lit in the first place without any nuances even miller's take had.

Really? Most mainstream thing with superman currently are evil. The only exception is that cw version and Snyder's cut version (both of these are pretty boring. But, ok) which isn't mainstream enough nor has the reach. It has its own demographics and audiences , sure enough. Also, i don't care about some minor blink and miss roles in things like young justice.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So, like most Golden Age superheroes? I mean Wonder Woman's got him beat by not only being anti-Nazi, but by advocating for the manumission and advancement of people within the country the creators reside in (females).

That being said, I don't think Wonder Woman is a feminist film or a film about liberty, even if her distant origins might be and since I know the question is about the MCU Captain America, a film franchise that has little to do with the advancement of liberty, I don't really see the point.

Most Golden Age superheroes were created to sell and serve as entertainment first and foremost. I mean yeah there's social commentary in the early Superman stories but by and large Siegel and Shuster wanted the character to entertain kids. Wonder Woman was created by Marston as a female alternative to Superman and Batman, and serve for girl readers what the Big Two served for young boys (of course there are other idiosyncratic reasons there dealing with his personal life but the main reason was positive and worthwhile). Not that I am saying making comics to entertain people is bad or wrong...after all Fantastic Four and Spider-Man and X-Men were made and revived for the same reasons. But it's not the same thing as Captain America.

Captain America's origin and conception was explicitly political. And yeah, Kirby and Simon wanted Captain America to sell and do well too, and they intended him to be entertaining, but having him punch a prominent world leader on the cover of their page is a step further than anyone else. Imagine someone doing a comic today where the hero punches Putin on the cover of the comic. Publishers wouldn't do that because Russia is a market for their products (and yeah even now Russia is still a market for American entertainment) just as Nazi Germany in the late 30s was a market for America.

Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman later became propaganda comics during World War II but with Cap he fought Nazis before it was cool.

[manwhohaseverything]

Most Golden Age superheroes were created to sell and serve as entertainment first and foremost. I mean yeah there's social commentary in the early Superman stories but by and large Siegel and Shuster wanted the character to entertain kids. Wonder Woman was created by Marston as a female alternative to Superman and Batman, and serve for girl readers what the Big Two served for young boys (of course there are other idiosyncratic reasons there dealing with his personal life but the main reason was positive and worthwhile). Not that I am saying making comics to entertain people is bad or wrong...after all Fantastic Four and Spider-Man and X-Men were made and revived for the same reasons. But it's not the same thing as Captain America.

Captain America's origin and conception was explicitly political. And yeah, Kirby and Simon wanted Captain America to sell and do well too, and they intended him to be entertaining, but having him punch a prominent world leader on the cover of their page is a step further than anyone else. Imagine someone doing a comic today where the hero punches Putin on the cover of the comic. Publishers wouldn't do that because Russia is a market for their products (and yeah even now Russia is still a market for American entertainment) just as Nazi Germany in the late 30s was a market for America.

Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman later became propaganda comics during World War II but with Cap he fought Nazis before it was cool.

Actually, superman took hitler and stalin by their belt. Superman sure enough was for entertainment purposes. But, the strongman from space did make his set of statements.

[Cyberstrike]

To ordinary people, the fact that they watched MCU means that they learned Steve as a good man and being a hero and soldier not for the sake of his country, but for the sake of what the best that his eyes and heart told him. An idea that is very simple, but charming. Now, Superman also has the same charm as Steve, but the problem is DC never show or emphasize that. Instead, DC and WB really wanted to prove that Superman is a misery alien, alone, too strong for his own good and danger to society.

It's not even a wonder, if Captain America is more popular now. Marvel shows Captain America at it's best, the greatest hero of Marvel universe. Not because of his shield. Not because of his super-soldier serum. But for his heart. A heart that made him fight Thanos despite outmatch he is. The heart that made him able to lift Mjolnir. The heart that made him human despite how powerful he is. That's what won Captain America to people around the world, especially the one who eat manga and anime. Because Steve is really the type of hero that they loved and you can see from how famous Captain America in Japan.

Now Superman also can reach that kind of famous if DC and WB can cast aside of how they need to write him as an alien god and instead write him with more focus on how human he is. How he indulge at his power for small child thing. How wondrous his power is. How vast and diverse the world of Superman is. And of course the heroic moment that seemingly natural no matter how you push it. Not because he got power from eating a hair after one cool scene. Not because he just spouts cool things here and there. But because he wanted to do a good thing from his heart and that moved him to do the right thing. That's how you won people on how to sell Superman. Not on his power, but, on his heart that do the right thing for the right people.

It's corny, I know. But to me that's Superman at his best and if Captain America can do it then Superman also can do it.

It's been said by many pop culture critics that best Superman films in the last decade are Marvel's Captain America trilogy and I have to agree with that.

My favorite scene in all of the MCU is in Captain America: The Winter Solider when Sam wants to help Cap and Black Widow and Cap says: "No, Sam you got out for a reason" and Wilson's reply is "Dude, Captain America needs my help I can't think of a better reason to get back in."

Remember that Sam Wilson at that point in the MCU has absolutely NOTHING to gain by helping Captain America and the Black Widow. There is no guarantee that he'll be an Avenger, or get a lot of money from Iron Man. He knows at this point he could be arrested and sent to prison or at worst he will be killed on site. Yet he's willing to risk his freedom and his life because he knows that Captain America needs his help and that it's the right thing to do. That is what characters like Captain America and Superman mean to me they appeal to our better natures and give us the courage to stand up and help others for no reward of any kind just because it's the right thing to do, this is something we NEED A LOT MORE OF THAT IN THIS WORLD NOT LESS.

[Powerboy]

To ordinary people, the fact that they watched MCU means that they learned Steve as a good man and being a hero and soldier not for the sake of his country, but for the sake of what the best that his eyes and heart told him. An idea that is very simple, but charming. Now, Superman also has the same charm as Steve, but the problem is DC never show or emphasize that. Instead, DC and WB really wanted to prove that Superman is a misery alien, alone, too strong for his own good and danger to society.

It's not even a wonder, if Captain America is more popular now. Marvel shows Captain America at it's best, the greatest hero of Marvel universe. Not because of his shield. Not because of his super-soldier serum. But for his heart. A heart that made him fight Thanos despite outmatch he is. The heart that made him able to lift Mjolnir. The heart that made him human despite how powerful he is. That's what won Captain America to people around the world, especially the one who eat manga and anime. Because Steve is really the type of hero that they loved and you can see from how famous Captain America in Japan.

Now Superman also can reach that kind of famous if DC and WB can cast aside of how they need to write him as an alien god and instead write him with more focus on how human he is. How he indulge at his power for small child thing. How wondrous his power is. How vast and diverse the world of Superman is. And of course the heroic moment that seemingly natural no matter how you push it. Not because he got power from eating a hair after one cool scene. Not because he just spouts cool things here and there. But because he wanted to do a good thing from his heart and that moved him to do the right thing. That's how you won people on how to sell Superman. Not on his power, but, on his heart that do the right thing for the right people.

It's corny, I know. But to me that's Superman at his best and if Captain America can do it then Superman also can do it.

It's a shame this post has gotten only one reply so far besides this one because it's probably the best post in the thread. Everything about Cap in the movies, especially the first one, emphasizes why he has the greatest heart of them all and is so dedicated to doing the right thing. If you were already a comics fan, this is the essence of the Cap you know. If you don't know the comics but have just heard the name Captain America, the movie forms your opinion of who he is.

Contrast that to the Superman the DCEU gives us. Yes, he's a good guy. Yes, he means well. But we only get glimpses of that amongst mostly negative things.

We are confused as to why Superman is so highly regarded by B v S and why the world is in ruin because of his death. We catch only glimpses of that inspirational Superman, sometimes in newspaper clippings that flash by at several per second.

Meanwhile, we see an entire series of movies highlighting why Cap is the inspirational hero who should be our ideal while still being a real person.

As someone else said, there also seems a more solid and planned out agreement creatively about who Cap is and how he should be presented and it melds well into the very premise and essence of who he is as a character. Not only does there seem to be no agreed upon creative consensus about who Superman is but, often, his presentation seems to shy away from the essence of who he is or become a parody of his essence.

There's also the factor that Captain America never really loses his origin. It's always steeped in World War II. He's always the guy whose formative years were the 1920s, 30s and 40s. It may be a somewhat updated version of the era but it still is somewhat that era. No matter when he returns, his story is of a man out of his proper time but still holding to those ideals. Superman loses that crucial factor of being from the time that, in the real world, formed his creation to begin with. So you end up with huge alterations or little explanation for some things that are kept. Not that Cap hasn't had major retcons, being frozen and awakening in the modern world of the 1960s to whenever being the biggest but he still has the foundation of WWII.

[Agent Z]

It's a shame this post has gotten only one reply so far besides this one because it's probably the best post in the thread. Everything about Cap in the movies, especially the first one, emphasizes why he has the greatest heart of them all and is so dedicated to doing the right thing. If you were already a comics fan, this is the essence of the Cap you know. If you don't know the comics but have just heard the name Captain America, the movie forms your opinion of who he is.

Contrast that to the Superman the DCEU gives us. Yes, he's a good guy. Yes, he means well. But we only get glimpses of that amongst mostly negative things.

We are confused as to why Superman is so highly regarded by B v S and why the world is in ruin because of his death. We catch only glimpses of that inspirational Superman, sometimes in newspaper clippings that flash by at several per second.

Meanwhile, we see an entire series of movies highlighting why Cap is the inspirational hero who should be our ideal while still being a real person.

As someone else said, there also seems a more solid and planned out agreement creatively about who Cap is and how he should be presented and it melds well into the very premise and essence of who he is as a character. Not only does there seem to be no agreed upon creative consensus about who Superman is but, often, his presentation seems to shy away from the essence of who he is or become a parody of his essence.

There's also the factor that Captain America never really loses his origin. It's always steeped in World War II. He's always the guy whose formative years were the 1920s, 30s and 40s. It may be a somewhat updated version of the era but it still is somewhat that era. No matter when he returns, his story is of a man out of his proper time but still holding to those ideals. Superman loses that crucial factor of being from the time that, in the real world, formed his creation to begin with. So you end up with huge alterations or little explanation for some things that are kept. Not that Cap hasn't had major retcons, being frozen and awakening in the modern world of the 1960s to whenever being the biggest but he still has the foundation of WWII.

The first thing we see Cavill's Superman doing is rescuing people from an oil fire when they almost get missed by a helicopter. We are then shown him standing up for a woman who is being sexually harassed, saving Lois after she is attacked by the ship's security system, trying to negotiate with Zod etc.

There is plenty positive to focus on in Superman in the movies but people would rather complain about the "darkness" (that isn't even that dark, I actually see people comparing him to Ultraman or the Homelander which is just laughable). Like with the premise of this thread, it seems Superman fans love complaining about him more than they like the character himself. And if you think this is an exaggeration, just look at how quickly they turned on him after he lost one fight to Supergirl in her own show.

[Pinsir]

Most Golden Age superheroes were created to sell and serve as entertainment first and foremost. I mean yeah there's social commentary in the early Superman stories but by and large Siegel and Shuster wanted the character to entertain kids. Wonder Woman was created by Marston as a female alternative to Superman and Batman, and serve for girl readers what the Big Two served for young boys (of course there are other idiosyncratic reasons there dealing with his personal life but the main reason was positive and worthwhile). Not that I am saying making comics to entertain people is bad or wrong...after all Fantastic Four and Spider-Man and X-Men were made and revived for the same reasons. But it's not the same thing as Captain America.

Captain America's origin and conception was explicitly political. And yeah, Kirby and Simon wanted Captain America to sell and do well too, and they intended him to be entertaining, but having him punch a prominent world leader on the cover of their page is a step further than anyone else. Imagine someone doing a comic today where the hero punches Putin on the cover of the comic. Publishers wouldn't do that because Russia is a market for their products (and yeah even now Russia is still a market for American entertainment) just as Nazi Germany in the late 30s was a market for America.

Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman later became propaganda comics during World War II but with Cap he fought Nazis before it was cool.

Steve Trovor's plane crashes on Paradise Island because he's involved in the conflict. The funny thing too is that I checked when the character was first published and she was actually published in October 1941 and Pearl Harbor was in December, yet the enemies she fights are German spies. So Wonder Woman was fighting Nazi's before they declared war against the United States.

Just to be clear, this stuff doesn't matter. Just because Captain America fought Nazi's back in the OG comics doesn't mean he's a simple of liberty now.

[manwhohaseverything]

The first thing we see Cavill's Superman doing is rescuing people from an oil fire when they almost get missed by a helicopter. We are then shown him standing up for a woman who is being sexually harassed, saving Lois after she is attacked by the ship's security system, trying to negotiate with Zod etc.

There is plenty positive to focus on in Superman in the movies but people would rather complain about the "darkness" (that isn't even that dark, I actually see people comparing him to Ultraman or the Homelander which is just laughable). Like with the premise of this thread, it seems Superman fans love complaining about him more than they like the character himself. And if you think this is an exaggeration, just look at how quickly they turned on him after he lost one fight to Supergirl in her own show.

Look mate, We get it superman saved people in man of steel.The movie served feeding you what you want.But,for many it didn't. Besides, that's not even the point. Point of these threads was to show that superman fans in general pick soft targets. They don't pick on things their own size like the company itself, they pick sizeable fanbases like snyder fans or newh52. They don't put their opinions, money or energies to shutdown what ought to be shut down like stooge superman, dictator superman, crybaby superman... Etc.When these things come out they generally make excuses "alternate" take so its not really superman. When in fact it is meant to be superman and everything is an alternate take. They put their effort into anything that's soft like the snyder movies or new52 or whatever that changes the formula a bit because They know they can win. If those who are gonna advocate for censoring content or saying "this shouldn't be done with superman or this superman story shouldn't exist". Then the prior should be what should be focused on not the later.

As for "people should be happy with what they get", they are not.They want more or different. You can call for the release of snyder cut and run a campaign(all the power to you) . But, i can't advocate for a working class superman based on siegel and shuster's. Why?

[SiegePerilous02]

The first thing we see Cavill's Superman doing is rescuing people from an oil fire when they almost get missed by a helicopter. We are then shown him standing up for a woman who is being sexually harassed, saving Lois after she is attacked by the ship's security system, trying to negotiate with Zod etc.

There is plenty positive to focus on in Superman in the movies but people would rather complain about the "darkness" (that isn't even that dark, I actually see people comparing him to Ultraman or the Homelander which is just laughable). Like with the premise of this thread, it seems Superman fans love complaining about him more than they like the character himself. And if you think this is an exaggeration, just look at how quickly they turned on him after he lost one fight to Supergirl in her own show.

I feel like people aren't denying that the positives are there so much as feeling that it's almost a pittance compared to the darker stuff (and even if it is a dream sequence, stuff like Superman burning people alive with his heat vision IS some heavy imagery in a movie that had to be trimmed down from an R rating that studio still wanted people to bring their kids to see). MoS is cited, on here at least, as being solid but with flaws, and had potential we would have liked to see develop in a different way. Most of it comes from BvS, which is a deliberately bleak movie where we still don't know this Superman that much to care about what he's going through. One reviewer on another forum said in a not so kind way "this movie was as exhausting as a late night argument with your spouse," and people don't generally feel that way if the positives outweigh the negatives. As a rule, I think people LIKED the examples you just posted, but the issue was there wasn't as much of it and it gets drowned out by the rest of it. You can't just keep pointing out these scenes that we already know about and say we're difficult to please, as if there isn't some valid criticisms to be had.

I also don't think audiences turned on Superman specifically in Supergirl, more the writing of how he was handled. Nobody reasonable wants Superman upstaging Kara in her own show, but the scene (in a show that doesn't have a reputation for subtle, nuanced writing) where he says she's a better hero than him can come across as 100% what the writers of the show want us to take away as truth and not just him being humble.

[Pinsir]

The Crimes of the MCU Captain America

> Mercilessly slaughtered mind controlled Shield Agents in Avengers 1 (A good reason to be reluctant to kill people in superhero universes is because of mind control)
> Allies with Shield, which in Avengers 1 is explicitly depicted as being nefarious organization because they were willing to nuke New York and the Avengers to maybe stop an alien invasion. He's also given a personal reason in Avengers 1 not to join them because they were working on Hydra tech and his friends also had reasons too (I forget theirs though)
> While in SHIELD, he does nothing to reform that institution and only begins to fight back against Hydra when they reveal themselves (So fighting Hydra now becomes a matter of survival, not proactive heroism)
> Allows Tony Stalk to walk free after he created a murderous AI
> Performed a failed and illegal mission in a foreign country, leading to the deaths of a dozen or more innocent people, including the leader of a sovereign power
> Instead of working with authorities with the whole Bucky thing, Cap allows himself to be manipulated into going rogue, which is what the main bad guy wanted
> Assaults German police officers who are dutifully trying to apprehend him (Batman fights cops all the time, but interestingly, he usual tries to flee from them without actually hitting them)
> Assaults his friends who are dutifully trying to apprehend him
> Escapes from prison after being rightly arrested
> I didn't watch Infinity war or Endgame (I try not to watch bad movies), but I know Cap is a coward who flees from the final fight which was a crime in the good ol' days

An emblem of liberty? More like criminality if you asked me. The thing with the people who keep comparing DCEU supes to MCU Cap is that, you people are literally applying a different standard. Supes kills one genocidal murderer and its all you people talk about, yet Cap can kill la kill and no one blinks an eye.