X-Men #11 review *spoilers*

[numberthirty]

...

True, but isn't Krakoa supposed to be the good guys here from the people who support their agenda? If the choice is between Days of Future Past and Age of Apocalypse mutants embracing their evil side just hurts everyone so they must go down as much as the evil humans do. Evil must be fought, not supported. That's what the X-men were founded on, and why Magneto tried to murder them when they were teenagers.

It is nice to know that we're at a stage where mutant super-villainsare confirmed to be evil. Progress.

Put simply, you are just plain wrong.

If Gorgon was evil?

Not one member of that group of assassins would have left that room alive. Honestly? None of the world leaders would have left the building alive.

As far as we know?

Every single one of them lived to tell the tale.

[pkingdom]

This is a conversation that's been had many times on these boards. I'll just say that you don't need to point at Apocalypse and Magneto as evidence of Krakoa being evil or morally bankrupt when you have Beast casually committing genocide of other nations. There's yet to be any consequences to that besides a lecture from Jean. And the idea that they've turned over a new leaf because they don't kill everyone they meet is, again, laughable when you look at what Beast did. Hell, X-force alone makes that law into a joke.

[Lucyinthesky]

Maybe we should change this threat title to "Discussion about Krakoa" just to have a place to do it and leave other threats to talk about the story. I get fans disliking the direction the titles are following but we don`t have to talk over and over again the same issue on every new threat imo, just my two cents.

But well on the topic

I agreee Beast actions were completely wrong in fact I was pretty critical of him not getting bigger consequences for his actions but the fact of the matter is that only Jean knows exactly what he did so if she really wants to do justice she should report it, she has not done so either because X-force is suppossed to have it`s own rules like other security instintutions or she just doesn`t want to give him trouble.

I thought the reason for his crime was silly, if Krakoa`s economy can`t handle a little competition from another type of product maybe they should diversify their economy to make it stronger for world competition specially since they plan on having trade all around the world or just isolate completely from the world like the Inhumans and Wakandans before them.

I really disliked this direction for beast since the whole issue with Scott and Utopia because he really was a moral person with strong ideals I don`t know why marvel insists on getting him act so dark he makes dark Beast of AoA look honest in comparision.

I believe that Exodus stories are either a sympton of a future civil war inside Krakoa or a plan he has in the long run for the children, Magneto and Wanda the fact I am sure this will be addressed in the story doesn`t mean I believe what he`s doing is right in any way, you can like fiction and characters who do shady things because you want to see where it leads, not because you are aparently of the same mind or "team evil". Also this doesn`t take in consideration Krakoa`s population has the Akademos habitat who`s run by the X-men and it`s the main educative institution on the country.

I dislike this idea of well now that Beast commited a crime everyone on Krakoa is evil , that`s false generalization, most of krakoa isnt even aware of what he did or why and most of them genuinely are looking at Krakoa as a place they can live in peace with their family. X-men and most mutants have been looking for peace.

Hickman is a writer that likes to push the moral boundaries of the characters, when Reed Richards and Black Panther were planning on destroying planets I didn`t think they could come back from that but here we are.

I am in agreement with everything Hickman has been doing with the X-men? No, because I have in my mind a version of those characters that doesn`t aling with his but I am not the one telling this story and I think him exploring both the good and bad side of Krakoa is an interesting premise for the characters because the X-men, at least for me, have never been shy exploring those moral complexities inside their team or in confrontation with their villains and it`s part of the reason they became such a popular super hero team, they are always willing to analyse themselves just as much as they judge their villains or antagonists and I like this take a lot better than the Avengers usual tactic of might makes right or Reed`s one of "I am smarter than you and I am a good person so what I do or my plans for you are always right and for you own good", I do`t think they act this way all the time but the characters do end making decisions following this mentality without other characters questioning those positions. I guess I just like a story open to question everybody on it for their good and bad actions.

[Devaishwarya]

We also have to take into account that Krakoa wouldn't have been if the mutants didn't feel they had to escape the human world. But they did so they brought all mutants in and since they have a common goal of survival, Xavier invited unlikely allies to the table as they have always had big influence.

Public optics be damned - why should they try to appear a certain way? Their nation wouldn't exist if mutants were allowed to live their lives. I personally think having Erik and •-[A]-• out in front is the hottest flex.

Exactatiously.

[numberthirty]

We also have to take into account that Krakoa wouldn't have been if the mutants didn't feel they had to escape the human world. But they did so they brought all mutants in and since they have a common goal of survival, Xavier invited unlikely allies to the table as they have always had big influence.

Public optics be damned - why should they try to appear a certain way? Their nation wouldn't exist if mutants were allowed to live their lives. I personally think having Erik and •-[A]-• out in front is the hottest flex.

Let's say that we are seriously going to entertain this nonsense.

Who, exactly, should Krakoa be trying to measure up to in terms of how the nation presents itself?

- The America That Fundamentally Works To Destabilize Mexico/Central America/South America Every Single Day?
- The England That Still Hasn't Let Go Of Ireland?
- The Russia That Still Is Attempts To Take Pieces Of Ukraine Regularly?

Just who are the countries that Krakoa should be trying to put it's best foot forwards to?

[Devaishwarya]

Thank you very much.

[Steel Inquisitor]

We also have to take into account that Krakoa wouldn't have been if the mutants didn't feel they had to escape the human world. But they did so they brought all mutants in and since they have a common goal of survival, Xavier invited unlikely allies to the table as they have always had big influence.

This is justification, not a good reason. It comes off as if its impossible to make their own safe nations unless they make the biggest and baddest worst mounts, who themselves have long track records of trying to harm mutant kind, as if this was absolutely necessary to create their utopia. This is the sort of defence organisations like Orchis make to justify their existence against mounts and Krkaoa.

Public optics be damned - why should they try to appear a certain way? Their nation wouldn't exist if mutants were allowed to live their lives. I personally think having Erik and •-[A]-• out in front is the hottest flex.

Because they don't want to become the next North Korea. Countries make a big priority to care abut how they are perceived in the world. Because nothing says Krakoa is fine except dragging out two of the biggest mass murderers in history. Except part of the problem was mutants like Apocalypse wrecking how they live their lives either by attacking humanity or other mutants for their schemes.

[numberthirty]

...

Because they don't want to become the next North Korea. Countries make a big priority to care abut how they are perceived in the world. Because nothing says Krakoa is fine except dragging out two of the biggest mass murderers in history. Except part of the problem was mutants like Apocalypse wrecking how they live their lives either by attacking humanity or other mutants for their schemes.

How are you perceived if you attempt to assassinate three diplomats and their security detail?

[Kisinith]

This is justification, not a good reason. It comes off as if its impossible to make their own safe nations unless they make the biggest and baddest worst mounts, who themselves have long track records of trying to harm mutant kind, as if this was absolutely necessary to create their utopia. This is the sort of defence organisations like Orchis make to justify their existence against mounts and Krkaoa.



Because they don't want to become the next North Korea. Countries make a big priority to care abut how they are perceived in the world. Because nothing says Krakoa is fine except dragging out two of the biggest mass murderers in history. Except part of the problem was mutants like Apocalypse wrecking how they live their lives either by attacking humanity or other mutants for their schemes.

Your understanding of international politics is severely lacking, there is nothing even remotely similar between North Korea and Krakoa. North Korea is in the situation that it is because you have a brutal dictatorship guilty of significant human rights abuses of its own people (A 2014 UN inquiry concluded that, "the gravity, scale and nature of these violations reveal a state that does not have any parallel in the contemporary world) and that has maintained an overtly threatening posture especially towards other regional rivals (South Korea and Japan).

An actual usable parallel is to compare it to Israel but without the controversy over land and settlements.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Your understanding of international politics is severely lacking, there is nothing even remotely similar between North Korea and Krakoa. North Korea is in the situation that it is because you have a brutal dictatorship guilty of significant human rights abuses of its own people (A 2014 UN inquiry concluded that, "the gravity, scale and nature of these violations reveal a state that does not have any parallel in the contemporary world) and that has maintained an overtly threatening posture especially towards other regional rivals (South Korea and Japan).

An actual usable parallel is to compare it to Israel but without the controversy over land and settlements.

The example of North Korea was of a pariah state Krakao might becaosem if they fail at public relations with the world, not what it is. And North Korea is more open with there world then Krakoao is, they have a tourism industry and public relations branch.

I don't think you're grasping how big an international nightmare Magneto, Gorgon or Apocalypse would be to the outside world and while the assassination attempt would be a huge black eye on the human diplomas that's nothing to the destruction and lives ruined by even one of the above. And Gorgon wasn't doing that too long ago, either. He wan't an errand boy for the Hand, or HYDRA, he was a high ranking leader in both those organisation and his own mutant terrorist cult. Everything that occurred in Madripoor that the Hand did was by his orders. And that's not getting into the things Magneto and Apocalypse said in the meeting. Had any of the humans what they said and broadcast it to friendly networks that'd be a massive scandal for Krkaoa. But they did because reasons.

This is a part of what Gorgon did in Avengers World.



Both SHIELD, and China's equivalent, SPEAR, were heavily involved along with the Avengers. It was war.

[numberthirty]

...

I don't think you're grasping how big an international nightmare Magneto, Gorgon or Apocalypse would be to the outside world and while the assassination attempt would be a huge black eye on the human diplomas that's nothing to the destruction and lives ruined by even one of the above. And Gorgon wasn't doing that too long ago, either. He wan't an errand boy for the Hand, or HYDRA, he was a high ranking leader in both those organisation and his own mutant terrorist cult. Everything that occurred in Madripoor that the Hand did was by his orders. And that's not getting into the things Magneto and Apocalypse said in the meeting. Had any of the humans what they said and broadcast it to friendly networks that'd be a massive scandal for Krkaoa. But they did because reasons.

This is a part of what Gorgon did in Avengers World.



Both SHIELD, and China's equivalent, SPEAR, were heavily involved along with the Avengers. It was war.

The world is actually smart enough to know that the mutants in question just kicked back on an island minding their own is one of the biggest wins in the history of humankind.

[Kisinith]

The example of North Korea was of a pariah state Krakao might becaosem if they fail at public relations with the world, not what it is. And North Korea is more open with there world then Krakoao is, they have a tourism industry and public relations branch.

I don't think you're grasping how big an international nightmare Magneto, Gorgon or Apocalypse would be to the outside world and while the assassination attempt would be a huge black eye on the human diplomas that's nothing to the destruction and lives ruined by even one of the above. And Gorgon wasn't doing that too long ago, either. He wan't an errand boy for the Hand, or HYDRA, he was a high ranking leader in both those organisation and his own mutant terrorist cult. Everything that occurred in Madripoor that the Hand did was by his orders. And that's not getting into the things Magneto and Apocalypse said in the meeting. Had any of the humans what they said and broadcast it to friendly networks that'd be a massive scandal for Krkaoa. But they did because reasons.

This is a part of what Gorgon did in Avengers World.



Both SHIELD, and China's equivalent, SPEAR, were heavily involved along with the Avengers. It was war.

You keep trying to compare actions to how they would be received in the real world, but its the MU these sorts of things are weekly occurrences... And as far as Gorgan is concerned even in the MU he pales next to...

Norman Osborn... given control of government superhuman affairs, currently running Ravencroft...
Kingpin... elected mayor of New York
General Ross... committed treason by working with the Leader and attempted Murder of Rick Jones recruited into shield and later returned to the Army and promoted.
J. Jonah Jameson... funded the creation of Scorpion and the Spider Slayers, retained his social position despite the devastation they caused.
Mystique and her brotherhood of evil mutants... after attempting to assassinate a Senator were given an official presidential pardon and worked for the US government (Freedom Force)
Winter Soldier... Terrorist attacks in Philadelphia killing hundreds, later becomes Captain America
Maria Hill...
Dr. Doom... too many to list... after Secret War became Iron Man.



Also you continually ignore the flip side of this argument. Krakoa is controlling these mutants keeping, them from doing this kind of thing. The very existence of Krakoa provides a level of protection against these kind of acts that the world never had before. You could just as easily make the case that the rest of the world should be overwhelmed with gratitude for protecting them from those individuals.

[Killerbee911]

Also you continually ignore the flip side of this argument. Krakoa is controlling these mutants keeping, them from doing this kind of thing. The very existence of Krakoa provides a level of protection against these kind of acts that the world never had before. You could just as easily make the case that the rest of the world should be overwhelmed with gratitude for protecting them from those individuals.

People don't get that side of the argument ,Krakoa is functionally a jail if we are being honest.

[Glio]

Before Krakoa those horrible people were doing terrible things to humans.

Now in Krakoa these horrible people are forbidden to kill humans and go about their own business.

Every time they are killed they resurrect, every time they are locked in The Raft they escape. If I was a human? Better Apocalypse in Krakoa than in my country.

[Steel Inquisitor]

You keep trying to compare actions to how they would be received in the real world, but its the MU these sorts of things are weekly occurrences... And as far as Gorgan is concerned even in the MU he pales next to...

Marvel may not be our world but they're not aliens. They have PR and news media. And he's the least scandalous person there.

Norman Osborn... given control of government superhuman affairs, currently running Ravencroft...
Kingpin... elected mayor of New York
General Ross... committed treason by working with the Leader and attempted Murder of Rick Jones recruited into shield and later returned to the Army and promoted.
J. Jonah Jameson... funded the creation of Scorpion and the Spider Slayers, retained his social position despite the devastation they caused.
Mystique and her brotherhood of evil mutants... after attempting to assassinate a Senator were given an official presidential pardon and worked for the US government (Freedom Force)
Winter Soldier... Terrorist attacks in Philadelphia killing hundreds, later becomes Captain America
Maria Hill...
Dr. Doom... too many to list... after Secret War became Iron Man.

Many of those are controversial figures and are able to get out of bad publicity by sheer power, when Bucky became Winter Soldier Iron Man tried to kill him. Mystique's past always caught up with her, and her past has been a huge barrier for making connections which she has a habit of abusing again and again. Jameson definitely should have got more consequences. Many of these are also shielded by writers and editors in the name of the status quo, exactly like Krakoa's government is right now. That didn't make any of their actions, or that they should be forgotten. They should be getting far more heat than they do get.

Also you continually ignore the flip side of this argument. Krakoa is controlling these mutants keeping, them from doing this kind of thing. The very existence of Krakoa provides a level of protection against these kind of acts that the world never had before. You could just as easily make the case that the rest of the world should be overwhelmed with gratitude for protecting them from those individuals.

That's a case Krakao isn't making itself. It's not a prison when the inmates are calling the shots. Krakoa ins't even hiding the fact these very mutant are trying to conquer humanity, they're just doing it with money and influence and they're not shy about telling it - this is why a speech like act Magneto said would be a scandal if it got out. But it won't because reasons.