Characters and real world combat parallels

[Lightning Rider]

One thing I think would be interesting is to grade the skillset of each street-level hero's principal martial arts from 1-5, with 1 being rudimentary understanding and 5 being elite-level mastery.

For example, Wildcat, a world champion boxer with a probable focus on Western combat systems, might be:

Boxing: 5
Kickboxing: 4
Wrestling: 3
Judo: 3
Jiu-Jitsu: 2

Batman, well-rounded in nearly all Martial Arts, would be:

Boxing: 4
Kung-Fu: 4
Karate: 4
Muay Thai: 4
Judo: 4
Jiu-Jitsu: 4

Black Canary, who is a little more petite and kicks more, might go:

Boxing: 3
Tae Kwon Do: 5
Kung fu: 4
Judo: 4
Jiu-Jitsu: 5

Something like that.

It gets harder with the super-powered characters, as they'd be adapting the art, rather than mastering it as it exists.

[lemonpeace]

I was watching the Isreal Adesanya vs Paulo Costa fight and it just hit me, if they took Isreal's fighting style and mixed it with Luffy's from One Piece, that could be a dope concept for a revamped Rubberband Man.

Isreal's a kickboxer and from what I can gauge from him (not a combat sports guy) his biggest advantage his reach and precision. so mix that kind of kickboxing prowess with the elastic speed and power of the gomu gomu fruit, you could have a visually interesting character. plus we don't see stretching powers used quite like Luffy's are in western comics so it would make him stand out from a Mister Fantastic, Plastic Man, or an Elongated Man.

[achilles]

It's interesting that the Supers just don't seem to use wrestling, JJ, or judo moves that often, even though for people like them, they could prove to be much more useful than striking for reasons of physics as well as just not terribly injuring the bad guy and possibly bystanders. I mean, think of it, who is going to escape from a chokehold applied by a Kryptonian? At the very least, Superman would be able to resist the urge to snap Zod's neck next time if he knew some basic grappling, and Power Girl could eliminate virtually all of her defeats in fights by knowing one counter to a headlock. I'm guessing Diana is probably the only Super type who ever uses grappling. Or bothers to train in it.

[Lightning Rider]

It's interesting that the Supers just don't seem to use wrestling, JJ, or judo moves that often, even though for people like them, they could prove to be much more useful than striking for reasons of physics as well as just not terribly injuring the bad guy and possibly bystanders. I mean, think of it, who is going to escape from a chokehold applied by a Kryptonian? At the very least, Superman would be able to resist the urge to snap Zod's neck next time if he knew some basic grappling, and Power Girl could eliminate virtually all of her defeats in fights by knowing one counter to a headlock. I'm guessing Diana is probably the only Super type who ever uses grappling. Or bothers to train in it.

Judo definitely, but I think some aspects of JJ would be hard for beings that can also fly and manipulate their position in 3d space. There is no floor for leverage in the air. But the Zod example is a good one. That's Clark's first big fight and the lack of knowledge showed. You'd expect him to learn how to restrain somebody more effectively later on.

[PCN24454]

It's interesting that the Supers just don't seem to use wrestling, JJ, or judo moves that often, even though for people like them, they could prove to be much more useful than striking for reasons of physics as well as just not terribly injuring the bad guy and possibly bystanders. I mean, think of it, who is going to escape from a chokehold applied by a Kryptonian? At the very least, Superman would be able to resist the urge to snap Zod's neck next time if he knew some basic grappling, and Power Girl could eliminate virtually all of her defeats in fights by knowing one counter to a headlock. I'm guessing Diana is probably the only Super type who ever uses grappling. Or bothers to train in it.

I don't think he kicks people that often either. He only uses his arms.

[Ascended]

This thread has made me realize how much I've forgotten about combat styles. Once upon a time I knew most of the names being thrown around and knew a little about what most styles were like, and now? I'm like "I think I recognize some'a them there words!" Hell I can barely remember anything about the shaolin kempo I actually learned!

Regarding the superhumans, I don't think you can really apply a lot of real fighting styles to them. Violence looks very different when gravity doesn't apply to you, and floors and walls crumble when you're knocked into them. There'd be some basics that translate to a superhuman fighter; throwing a punch is, by and large, throwing a punch. But a lot of the stuff real fighters rely on has little bearing on the high level super humans.

I agree that Diana would be using Pankration, but likely a heavily modified version of it, as the Amazons would have refined and enhanced the style over centuries and Diana's additional powers beyond the Amazon norm would require more tweaking. I imagine that if you looked at Diana, you'd be able to recognize the basic form but a lot of the specifics would be unique to Themyscria, if not Diana herself. And she's likely picked up some tricks from other styles as she's encountered them. But at a guess? I'd bet Diana's favorite martial art from Man's World is the meditative stances of tai chi. I know that type of form as a kata, I dunno if tai chi calls it something else.

Regarding Clark, it's typically true that he doesn't learn how to fight until he comes up against people who can match him physically (which in many continuities is as a teen with the Legion). I'm sure Pa Kent showed his boy how to throw a punch properly (as a form of control more than a way to hurt people), but actual fighting is something Clark likely never thought he'd need until he gets his nose broken by some alien just as strong as he is. I imagine the foundation of Clark's combat is boxing, but there's not really any discernable "style" involved; he's got a ton of tricks and moves pulled from all kinds of sources, picked up from Mongul, Karate Kid, Almerac, ancient Kryptonian martial arts he found in Fortress records, a ton of self-taught things learned through hard experience, stuff picked up from Diana and Bruce and Dick....and everything is tweaked to incorporate his abilities; he's not just throwing a punch that Wildcat taught him, he's throwing a punch Wildcat taught him while using heat vision to briefly blind the opponent, super-breath to knock them off balance, etc.

Oh, I was watching Avatar the Last Airbending with my kids for the first time, and it struck me that I'd really like to see Black Canary use her powers the way some of these kids bend elements, and incorporate it into her fighting; throwing a punch while also using a tight-focus burst of sonic scream.....that'd be formidable as hell.

[OopsIdiditagain]

Every character knowing jujutsu is the default

[Ascended]

One thing I think would be interesting is to grade the skillset of each street-level hero's principal martial arts from 1-5, with 1 being rudimentary understanding and 5 being elite-level mastery.

For a stats-based evaluation I like the idea. Probably impossible to enforce in the actual comics but it'd at least provide a solid baseline. I'd be down for it. Not gonna add to your list because I don't know enough about martial arts but I like the idea.

....a while back we were all discussing which hero is "low tier, mid tier, high tier" and I've regretfully forgotten some of the great posters who contributed there but I'm pretty sure you were there, yeah?

[Lightning Rider]

For a stats-based evaluation I like the idea. Probably impossible to enforce in the actual comics but it'd at least provide a solid baseline. I'd be down for it. Not gonna add to your list because I don't know enough about martial arts but I like the idea.

....a while back we were all discussing which hero is "low tier, mid tier, high tier" and I've regretfully forgotten some of the great posters who contributed there but I'm pretty sure you were there, yeah?

Thanks. I think it would be a cool guideline for writers, but particularly animators and live action showrunners to keep in mind. I don't have high standards for fictional combat but sometimes the moves just don't make sense for the characters.

I do remember that thread, it was a fun exercise. I faintly remember one of my few contributions being the idea that some characters are in their own category as an "ace in the hole"; they're not classic heavy-hitters and lack raw physical power/durability, but can do one thing that can end a fight quickly if they execute their ability right.

[achilles]

Thanks. I think it would be a cool guideline for writers, but particularly animators and live action showrunners to keep in mind. I don't have high standards for fictional combat but sometimes the moves just don't make sense for the characters.

I do remember that thread, it was a fun exercise. I faintly remember one of my few contributions being the idea that some characters are in their own category as an "ace in the hole"; they're not classic heavy-hitters and lack raw physical power/durability, but can do one thing that can end a fight quickly if they execute their ability right.

I think the ones who really need that knowledge are the artists, not the writers. Fortunately, visual references are easy to find for all real martial arts, (artists who try some of the fantasy martial arts in their visuals of course would simply base moves off existing martial arts, since there aren't too many ways a humanoid body can move. For people like the Martian Manhunter or Plastic Man...well....the artist will have to wing it.

I do agree that having some sort of fighting style bible, more what sort of moves and what sort of attitude each character has than absolute or relative skill levels, though I can see the latter might also have some use for the writer. It would help the artist to know if the character is likely to be a super-aggressive fighter, or a defensive fighter, a counter-puncher, of the person who sets the pace of the fight.

For example, Wonder Woman might be viewed as a judicious fighter, not exposing herself unnecessarily to get in a hit, maybe a cautious pace setter. Contrasting, Power Girl would be a highly aggressive blitzing fighter, skilled, but overly aggressive and thus vulnerable. Which doesn't mean that wouldn't work for her most of the time. Same for Diana. Her strategy would simply work most of the time. Those other times are where the drama lies.

[Lightning Rider]

I think the ones who really need that knowledge are the artists, not the writers. Fortunately, visual references are easy to find for all real martial arts, (artists who try some of the fantasy martial arts in their visuals of course would simply base moves off existing martial arts, since there aren't too many ways a humanoid body can move. For people like the Martian Manhunter or Plastic Man...well....the artist will have to wing it.

I do agree that having some sort of fighting style bible, more what sort of moves and what sort of attitude each character has than absolute or relative skill levels, though I can see the latter might also have some use for the writer. It would help the artist to know if the character is likely to be a super-aggressive fighter, or a defensive fighter, a counter-puncher, of the person who sets the pace of the fight.

For example, Wonder Woman might be viewed as a judicious fighter, not exposing herself unnecessarily to get in a hit, maybe a cautious pace setter. Contrasting, Power Girl would be a highly aggressive blitzing fighter, skilled, but overly aggressive and thus vulnerable. Which doesn't mean that wouldn't work for her most of the time. Same for Diana. Her strategy would simply work most of the time. Those other times are where the drama lies.

Well put. I think a lot of the emphasis would also lie on how detailed the writer and artist is. Some writers are very hands off with regards to art, and others actually sketch rough panels of what they want.

[achilles]

Well put. I think a lot of the emphasis would also lie on how detailed the writer and artist is. Some writers are very hands off with regards to art, and others actually sketch rough panels of what they want.

This is true. Which is why references like character bibles with information about this topic are a great idea IMO. Keeps everyone on the same page.

[kjn]

I agree that Diana would be using Pankration, but likely a heavily modified version of it, as the Amazons would have refined and enhanced the style over centuries and Diana's additional powers beyond the Amazon norm would require more tweaking. I imagine that if you looked at Diana, you'd be able to recognize the basic form but a lot of the specifics would be unique to Themyscria, if not Diana herself. And she's likely picked up some tricks from other styles as she's encountered them. But at a guess? I'd bet Diana's favorite martial art from Man's World is the meditative stances of tai chi. I know that type of form as a kata, I dunno if tai chi calls it something else.

An issue here is that we don't know much about pankration, apart from that it included both punching and grappling moves, and was meant to be used in real-life combat (i.e. it was meant to be deadly).

The way I see it, the Amazons should have a three-tiered unarmed combat system. First is with lots of rotational movements, throws, and acrobatics, suitable for fighting multiple opponents or for gauging an opponent. Second is a close-in system with throws and grappling. Third one would be a "direct" system, with effective punches and kicks.

The thing that makes Diana such a scary opponent is not only that she is a master of all three, but that she can shift between them without any form of signalling or warning to the opponent. Or as I think Black Canary said: watching Diana fight is like watching a ballet with multiple compound fractures.

Regarding Clark, it's typically true that he doesn't learn how to fight until he comes up against people who can match him physically (which in many continuities is as a teen with the Legion). I'm sure Pa Kent showed his boy how to throw a punch properly (as a form of control more than a way to hurt people), but actual fighting is something Clark likely never thought he'd need until he gets his nose broken by some alien just as strong as he is. I imagine the foundation of Clark's combat is boxing, but there's not really any discernable "style" involved

Pretty much agree, though I like the take in Superman Smashes the Klan where Clark is mentored by a pro wrestler or circus strongman. Some wrestling moves would really suit him, I think. But compared to someone like Diana he would be a talented amateur. That doesn't make him an easy opponent in a fight, rather it makes him an unpredictable opponent in a fight against anyone who doesn't know him or studied him.

Oh, I was watching Avatar the Last Airbending with my kids for the first time, and it struck me that I'd really like to see Black Canary use her powers the way some of these kids bend elements, and incorporate it into her fighting; throwing a punch while also using a tight-focus burst of sonic scream.....that'd be formidable as hell.

I think sadly that's an issue with a lot of superheroes: the writers far too seldom dig into their powers and wonder how they can be used. Flash is probably the exception, and look where they ended up…

[achilles]

It's true we don't know exactly how Pankration, (classical), worked, though we do have quite a few static depictions of moves on pottery. Not enough to be certain about anything, but maybe enough to reconstruct some moves. There is of course a modern martial art called Pankration, developed in Greece as you'd expect, from a variety of modern martial arts that approximate the move sets and ranges of the old style as far as can be determined. Unfortunately, unlike medieval European martial arts, we don't have a bunch of books that detail Pankration of course, but as I said, we do have images without instructional text, and without context.

That said, I think having the Amazons practice classical Pankration, classical Greek boxing and wrestling, along with the drills, weapons, and tactics of say the Spartans, or if you want to go later, of Phillip or his son. I'm not really a fan of them being masters of kung-fu or anything like that, just the best at what they do, (which would be pretty comprehensive as to hand to hand and non firearms combat with weapons. And of course since it really isn't the martial art as much as how it's trained; it would be correct IMO to have them do some seriously hard and brutal training, harder than most of the rest of the DCU.

[Agent Z]

The Amazons (in the myths anyway) aren't from Greece so they'd have a variety of fighting styles considering their origins or at least a fighting style that blends aspects of numerous styles together.

Flying Fox, Koryak and Dark-Crow could practice Okichitaw.