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  1. #31
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    No-oo...don't think I'm too far off, calling them silly and possessed of less potential, than WW's lesser developed antagonists (badguys). Right now, Cheetah's a funny, crazy cat-lady, with no apparent or compelling reason for her actions and existence. Circe is, only recently, taking shape into something truly ominous and worthy of an arch-enmity, with Wonder Woman - no surprise, this transformation is happening, in another comic and outside the pages of WW. Prior to James Tynion's run on Justice League Dark, Circe was a tired, slinky sorceress, cliche, ..like a badly written Joan Collins character.

    The WW comic, which has no consistently recognizable rogues gallery, after over seventy years in publication, ..has its own Galactus, Deathstroke the Terminator (two, if you count Colonel Poison), Borg Queen, SPECTRE and Doctor Doom. What's it doing with ANY of these potentially game-changing villains...seriously, what?

    Nothing. My outrage is justifiable, methinks.



    Agreeing with you, on both points.

    I'm not crazy about Cheetah being an evil Lara Croft: Tomb Raider, as it's not very imaginative. Now, ..if you told me she's an evil Lara Croft, from an alternate future, who scientifically or quasi-mystically engineered herself a superhumanly strong, hybrid were-cheetah body to survive the rigors of time-travel and for defense against unexpected threats, ..I'm listening.
    Ruka helped with the story of Cheetah and her character development in Rebirth. It proved that she works best as an anti hero. A dark Mirror for Diana rather than actual villain.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    No-oo...don't think I'm too far off, calling them silly and possessed of less potential, than WW's lesser developed antagonists (badguys). Right now, Cheetah's a funny, crazy cat-lady, with no apparent or compelling reason for her actions and existence. Circe is, only recently, taking shape into something truly ominous and worthy of an arch-enmity, with Wonder Woman - no surprise, this transformation is happening, in another comic and outside the pages of WW. Prior to James Tynion's run on Justice League Dark, Circe was a tired, slinky sorceress, cliche, ..like a badly written Joan Collins character.

    The WW comic, which has no consistently recognizable rogues gallery, after over seventy years in publication, ..has its own Galactus, Deathstroke the Terminator (two, if you count Colonel Poison), Borg Queen, SPECTRE and Doctor Doom. What's it doing with ANY of these potentially game-changing villains...seriously, what?

    Nothing. My outrage is justifiable, methinks.



    Agreeing with you, on both points.

    I'm not crazy about Cheetah being an evil Lara Croft: Tomb Raider, as it's not very imaginative. Now, ..if you told me she's an evil Lara Croft, from an alternate future, who scientifically or quasi-mystically engineered herself a superhumanly strong, hybrid were-cheetah body to survive the rigors of time-travel and for defense against unexpected threats, ..I'm listening.
    Evil Lara Croft isn't exactly a common idea so you can't say it isn't a creative idea.

  3. #33
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    No-oo...don't think I'm too far off, calling them silly and possessed of less potential, than WW's lesser developed antagonists (badguys). Right now, Cheetah's a funny, crazy cat-lady, with no apparent or compelling reason for her actions and existence. Circe is, only recently, taking shape into something truly ominous and worthy of an arch-enmity, with Wonder Woman - no surprise, this transformation is happening, in another comic and outside the pages of WW. Prior to James Tynion's run on Justice League Dark, Circe was a tired, slinky sorceress, cliche, ..like a badly written Joan Collins character.

    The WW comic, which has no consistently recognizable rogues gallery, after over seventy years in publication, ..has its own Galactus, Deathstroke the Terminator (two, if you count Colonel Poison), Borg Queen, SPECTRE and Doctor Doom. What's it doing with ANY of these potentially game-changing villains...seriously, what?

    Nothing. My outrage is justifiable, methinks.



    Agreeing with you, on both points.

    I'm not crazy about Cheetah being an evil Lara Croft: Tomb Raider, as it's not very imaginative. Now, ..if you told me she's an evil Lara Croft, from an alternate future, who scientifically or quasi-mystically engineered herself a superhumanly strong, hybrid were-cheetah body to survive the rigors of time-travel and for defense against unexpected threats, ..I'm listening.
    So your argument here is Circe and Cheetah are silly but Termite Queen is apparently the next Galactus or Dr. Doom?

  4. #34
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    /Mystical41: The problem with that, for me, is making all of her major antagonists, frenemies or anti-heroes, keeps her conflicts, with them, somewhat inconsequential. I don't think she has any major enemies, right now, because they don't do anything to her or against her that gets them out of the frenemy zone. For me, that's boring and anti-climactic - not enough narrative mass or energy ..to create a sustainably HOT, superhero comic enmity.

    /AgentZ: I enjoy conversations, with fellow postors. I think you are antagonizing my comments, instead of conversing with me, purely for the sake of going back and forth, on an opposable position. My opinion of how clever or uninspired Cheetah and Circe are has been clearly stated, ..but, there's more we can discuss.

    /Gaius: She's a starter Borg Queen, as I see it. I don't understand why she's in mothballs, considering the WW comic's deficit in interesting characters and a salable rogues gallery. For my money, that's editorially wasteful, and unforgivable, ..given the circumstances, we just discussed.

    I can't say that Wonder Woman has a single enemy of any great consequence. None of them do anything or are in positions to drastically mess up Diana's narrative bottom line, as with Darth Vader's enmity, with the heroes of the Rebel Alliance. What terrible, untenable thing is Wonder Woman uniquely positioned to stop Cheetah or Circe or any of her major rogues from doing? What terrible, untenable thing happens, if one of them succeeds, and why should that keep Diana up, at night?

    I think any writer/creator playing in the Wonderverse sandbox should be addressing, going forward in 2021 and beyond.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 09-14-2020 at 08:40 AM.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    /Mystical41: The problem with that, for me, is making all of her major antagonists, frenemies or anti-heroes, keeps her conflicts, with them, somewhat inconsequential. I don't think she has any major enemies, right now, because they don't do anything to her or against her that gets them out of the frenemy zone. For me, that's boring and anti-climactic - not enough narrative mass or energy ..to create a sustainably HOT, superhero comic enmity.
    I donít have a problem with frenemy villains, I have a problem when the vast majority of your villains are one thing or another. They whole point of a rogueís gallery is variety.

    I have the same problem with brain over brawn villains. Wonderwoman has a bunch of these ( usually with the Dr. abbreviation in front of their name).

    Some people have a problem with so many myth based villains. I donít. Wonderwoman is a myth based hero. No one complains about to many aliens and robots in Superman.

  6. #36
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post

    /Gaius: She's a starter Borg Queen, as I see it. I don't understand why she's in mothballs, considering the WW comic's deficit in interesting characters and a salable rogues gallery. For my money, that's editorially wasteful, and unforgivable, ..given the circumstances, we just discussed.
    I mean, it could just be that Termite Queen isn't that interesting compared to the ones that have gotten re-used?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I can't say that Wonder Woman has a single enemy of any great consequence. None of them do anything or are in positions to drastically mess up Diana's narrative bottom line, as with Darth Vader's enmity, with the heroes of the Rebel Alliance. What terrible, untenable thing is Wonder Woman uniquely positioned to stop Cheetah or Circe or any of her major rogues from doing? What terrible, untenable thing happens, if one of them succeeds, and why should that keep Diana up, at night?

    I think any writer/creator playing in the Wonderverse sandbox should be addressing, going forward in 2021 and beyond.
    I mean, there's Ares and Circe who regularly threaten the world, Dr. Psycho's whole mind control thing at his sadistic pleasure, Cale and Godwatch, traditional Dr. Poison, etc.

    Cheetah's the only one in recent years who has been made a former friend turned enemy but honestly that make's her more interesting.

    Yeah, it's not much in comparison to say the Batman's rogues gallery but honestly that's more of a rogues gallery than most major heroes can boast.

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    So I'm reading Catwoman When In Rome for the first time and suddenly Cheetah appeared and I was like what
    Then she said to Selina if she kills her she'll take the name Catwoman and I was like What?
    Then even though Selina lost the first fight and acknowledged Cheetah's gone three rounds with Wonder Woman she still managed to hit her and strangle her with her own tail and I was like What?!
    Then it turned out she was hired by the Riddler and she hugged him from behind like a female villain side piece and I was like What.

    Did they literally use her just because she's a cat woman? The disrespect.

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    So I'm reading Catwoman When In Rome for the first time and suddenly Cheetah appeared and I was like what
    Then she said to Selina if she kills her she'll take the name Catwoman and I was like What?
    Then even though Selina lost the first fight and acknowledged Cheetah's gone three rounds with Wonder Woman she still managed to hit her and strangle her with her own tail and I was like What?!
    Then it turned out she was hired by the Riddler and she hugged him from behind like a female villain side piece and I was like What.

    Did they literally use her just because she's a cat woman? The disrespect.
    yes the thought processes behind her appearance in When in Rome and in Will Pfeifer's Catwoman run never go beyond "they're both female cats."

    There is no logical reason Catwoman or Batman would still be breathing if she decided to kill them quickly without Wonder Woman around.

  9. #39
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    So I'm reading Catwoman When In Rome for the first time and suddenly Cheetah appeared and I was like what
    Then she said to Selina if she kills her she'll take the name Catwoman and I was like What?
    Then even though Selina lost the first fight and acknowledged Cheetah's gone three rounds with Wonder Woman she still managed to hit her and strangle her with her own tail and I was like What?!
    Then it turned out she was hired by the Riddler and she hugged him from behind like a female villain side piece and I was like What.

    Did they literally use her just because she's a cat woman? The disrespect.
    Don't think there was much more thought put into it than that, Loeb's always been a rather literal/on-the-nose writer. Pretty sure that isn't also the only Catwoman/Cheetah interaction that ends in Selina's favor.

    Selina, along with other Bat-characters and villains, benefit from the BatGod thing where they usually get to punch well above their well weight class, or at least get the last word in, on non-Batman related characters. Just look at Jason Todd in that DTV movie, Joker in Injustice, or Harley Quinn anytime she's interacts with anyone.

    ,
    Last edited by Gaius; 09-18-2020 at 12:12 PM.

  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    yes the thought processes behind her appearance in When in Rome and in Will Pfeifer's Catwoman run never go beyond "they're both female cats."

    There is no logical reason Catwoman or Batman would still be breathing if she decided to kill them quickly without Wonder Woman around.
    Oh now that you mention it... I remember... about a year before I got into comics through New 52, I already started looking at older solicitations, and there's a cover of Catwoman fighting Cheetah. It was... Prison Planet arc, I think. All the villains are trapped in Prison Planet and they're fighting to get out. Is that Will Pfeiffer?

  11. #41
    Incredible Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Oh now that you mention it... I remember... about a year before I got into comics through New 52, I already started looking at older solicitations, and there's a cover of Catwoman fighting Cheetah. It was... Prison Planet arc, I think. All the villains are trapped in Prison Planet and they're fighting to get out. Is that Will Pfeiffer?
    Yup, it's Pfeiffer. Catwoman broke Cheetah's arm in that issue. Pfeiffer also wrote those infamous stories in which Batman one punched Cheetah and Circe.

  12. #42
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Between Amazons Attack! and the Cheetah stuff, Pfeiffer really was The Worst.

  13. #43
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Between Amazons Attack! and the Cheetah stuff, Pfeiffer really was The Worst.
    Didn't realize Amazons Attack! was by him also.

    Talk about a dark horse candidate for worst WW writer.

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    Yup, it's Pfeiffer. Catwoman broke Cheetah's arm in that issue. Pfeiffer also wrote those infamous stories in which Batman one punched Cheetah and Circe.
    I haven't heard/seen that last one

    The other Cheetah disrespect I know before this is when Batman seduces Cheetah in JL animated and in a different animated series Nightwing was losing against Cheetah and Croc, Wally came in so it's 2 on 2 and I was hyped and... Nightwing fights Cheetah. Wally's right there!

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Between Amazons Attack! and the Cheetah stuff, Pfeiffer really was The Worst.
    omg

    wait no

    bmg

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