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  1. #526
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack The Tripper View Post
    Man, this is all people were saying at the start of the thread, as per the title of the thread. However instead of listening to why people were excited, OP decided to just try and turn it into an argument about why it won't be good. Thread should have been closed long ago.
    I don't see anything wrong with the thread. There are just certain posters that shouldn't be allowed to take part in these discussions anymore.

    Some people don't want to have civil discuss things. They want to win. They don't want to hear a different opinion. They want to be told their opinion is right. (I'll admit that at times I've fallen into this trap myself, but I like to think I've gotten better about backing off once I see where it's going.)
    Last edited by Alan2099; 09-06-2020 at 03:10 PM.

  2. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    alright i will give it a chance
    This is all anybody's been asking mate. So thank you.

  3. #528
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    alright i will give it a chance
    Who knows? You might actually like it.

    There's no harm in being optimistic.

  4. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I don't see anything wrong with the thread. There are just certain posters that shouldn't be allowed to take part in these discussions anymore.

    Some people don't want to have civil discuss things. They want to win. They don't want to hear a different opinion. They want to be told their opinion is right. (I'll admit that at times I've fallen into this trap myself, but I like to think I've gotten back about backing off once I see where it's going.)
    Agreed. This is the thing: there are ways to discuss things in a civil manner. You can disagree with someone without making it sound like your opinion is the only right opinion. Things can be civil without devolving into "us vs them". A lot of us (including myself) have fallen into this trap, but I think most have been baited into it. Hopefully things can cool down now.

  5. #530
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    First off being unpopular and being poor quality are not hand and hand. Abnett’s run in 2008 was very well receiving. Marvel Cosmic has never been a top seller and never will because they’re more space adventure than traditional comic book heroics. Like people are talking about a Nova movie when Nova has never been a top seller or well known to the public. Gunn’s gotg are worse than Abnett’s and the subsequent comics that try to take elements from it ended up being a flop and seeing even lower sales than before. So please if Gunn’s gotg is so great why are the guardians still low tier in sales and constantly getting rebooted? They’ve had like 6 different relaunches since 2013 some taking a lot from the movie others doing it’s own thing but none have gotten the critical acclaim or even sale numbers as the 2008 series

    The first 2 Avengers did pull from Ultimates but at this point the MCU is its own thing all together
    I am going say this very loudly FLOPPIES/SINGLE ISSUE SUCK as the standard. The issues started before today but definitely don't work in a world were kids can binge watch shows and is a cheaper form of entertainment. The fact comics can't convert one percent of movie goers is failure on comics format. Both Manga and normal novels get boost from media. We see uptick in sale of trades with movie releases (GotG trades do well).

    Sure let's talk about "failing" GotG runs that never hit real cancelation numbers that are doing well as trades. While we are here lets talk about that the Boys and Umbrella Academy trades are 1,2, and 3 in graphic novels for Superheroes on Amazon. In best sellers about 6 or 7 them are in the top 20 along with Locke & Key.

    People are quick to point out numbers on supposed fail projects when pretty much nothing but Spiderman, Superman, X-men, Avengers, Star Wars, Batman, Flash, Wonder Woman and handful other things that sell well as floppies. Everything else degrades to cancelation level and you need to constantly soft relaunch them combat this fact ,this includes stuff that has biggest movies in world like Ironman, Black Panther, Aquaman and Dr Strange.

    If you talk about GotG or Captian Marvel "relaunches" as bad things you have your head in the sand about how comic industries work for everything not in top 40 books. It is always amazing when people can't see the market flaw and talk about the books as if they are issue.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-06-2020 at 05:23 PM.

  6. #531
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    I am going say this very loudly FLOPPIES/SINGLE ISSUE SUCK as the standard. The issues started before today but definitely don't work in a world were kids can binge watch shows and is a cheaper form of entertainment. The fact comics can't convert one percent of movie goers is failure on comics format. Both Manga and normal novels get boost from media. We see uptick in sale of trades with movie releases (GotG trades do well).

    Sure let's talk about "failing" GotG runs that never hit real cancelation numbers that are doing well as trades. While we are here lets talk about that the Boys and Umbrella Academy trades are 1,2, and 3 in graphic novels for Superheroes on Amazon. In best sellers about 6 or 7 them are in the top 20 along with Locke & Key.

    People are quick to point out numbers on supposed fail projects when pretty much nothing but Spiderman, Superman, X-men, Avengers, Star Wars, Batman, Flash, Wonder Woman and handful other things that sell well as floppies. Everything else degrades to cancelation level and you need to constantly soft relaunch them combat this fact ,this includes stuff that has biggest movies in world like Ironman, Black Panther, Aquaman and Dr Strange.

    If you talk about GotG or Captian Marvel "relaunches" as bad things you have your head in the sand about how comic industries work for everything not in top 40 books. It is always amazing when people can't see the market flaw and talk about the books as if they are issue.
    I didn't bring up the multiple reboots to GotG and Starlord in particular to say that any of the comics were bad, but to point out wildly different characterizations, origins, and personalities to the character. The changes the movies made to him are of a similar scale to what the comics have done in the past.

    Those weren't the level of changes a top tier character gets when shifting to a new writer, (the core Avengers and X-Men may evolve, but they don't typically get reimagining outside of alternate universe stories) they were more along the lines of what happens to characters like Power Girl or Donna Troy after a DC Crisis, where the new origin makes the previous one impossible. Calling out the films for doing what the comics have done more than once seems a bit hypocritical to me.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  7. #532
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I didn't bring up the multiple reboots to GotG and Starlord in particular to say that any of the comics were bad, but to point out wildly different characterizations, origins, and personalities to the character. The changes the movies made to him are of a similar scale to what the comics have done in the past.

    Those weren't the level of changes a top tier character gets when shifting to a new writer, (the core Avengers and X-Men may evolve, but they don't typically get reimagining outside of alternate universe stories) they were more along the lines of what happens to characters like Power Girl or Donna Troy after a DC Crisis, where the new origin makes the previous one impossible. Calling out the films for doing what the comics have done more than once seems a bit hypocritical to me.
    I wasn't talking about you particular but you bring up a good point it is funny people will go after a movie hard for changes but ignore when comics fundamentally change a character for example the current X-run and Immortal Hulk are reboots but Marvel has to hide its reboots in continuity to please the fanboys but they are clearly reboots.

    This X man run is one of biggest changes I have seen and they are characters that yeah you can say have completely new personalities .Comics change stuff all the time when concepts don't work.The very Eternals people are complaining about MCU is changing got rework before in the comics. I am not against changing things that clearly don't work in books why repeat the same mistakes?

  8. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    I am going say this very loudly FLOPPIES/SINGLE ISSUE SUCK as the standard. The issues started before today but definitely don't work in a world were kids can binge watch shows and is a cheaper form of entertainment. The fact comics can't convert one percent of movie goers is failure on comics format. Both Manga and normal novels get boost from media. We see uptick in sale of trades with movie releases (GotG trades do well).
    Yeah I agree single issues are outdated and probably should be packaged like Shonen Jump mags and whatever. However the fact is movies never boost sales of properties even when they sell out to make it like the movies. This is a proven fact and like I said also only hurts the comic industry only emphasizing how volatile and unimportant it is. As I mentioned it’d be like later prints Of Harry Potter or LotR to change to be like the movie. But that doesn’t make guardians successful.

    Sure let's talk about "failing" GotG runs that never hit real cancelation numbers that are doing well as trades. While we are here lets talk about that the Boys and Umbrella Academy trades are 1,2, and 3 in graphic novels for Superheroes on Amazon. In best sellers about 6 or 7 them are in the top 20 along with Locke & Key.
    Yes they did. Several times

    What does that prove? Why don’t dc and marvel superheroes see an uptick with this?

    People are quick to point out numbers on supposed fail projects when pretty much nothing but Spiderman, Superman, X-men, Avengers, Star Wars, Batman, Flash, Wonder Woman and handful other things that sell well as floppies. Everything else degrades to cancelation level and you need to constantly soft relaunch them combat this fact ,this includes stuff that has biggest movies in world like Ironman, Black Panther, Aquaman and Dr Strange.
    Then why is this an issue now and not back in 2010? People have criticized dc and marvel for needless relaunches and over saturating number ones.

    If you talk about GotG or Captian Marvel "relaunches" as bad things you have your head in the sand about how comic industries work for everything not in top 40 books. It is always amazing when people can't see the market flaw and talk about the books as if they are issue.
    First off no trades did not sell well. Second if that’s the case how does it compare to the 2008 run? Guardians get a new title every year you think that is signs of a successful series? The only reason marvel keeps them around is because of the movie

  9. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    This X man run is one of biggest changes I have seen and they are characters that yeah you can say have completely new personalities .Comics change stuff all the time when concepts don't work.The very Eternals people are complaining about MCU is changing got rework before in the comics. I am not against changing things that clearly don't work in books why repeat the same mistakes?
    What defines as not working in your eyes? Carol has failed to become an A Lister like Captain America or the X Men for years now despite marvel pushing her to the forefront of everything but they made a movie off her and stuck to her original character while giving her mar vell’s origin. Like should the nova movie of marvel makes one be accurate despite nova never being an a list title? Not every character will be an a lister or a household name but that isn’t always a bad thing. Even now GotG are viewed as those quirky weird guys instead of as icon heroes like iron man or captain America. Marvel never tried to push the guardians before the movies. They were never going to be anything more than a fun goofy space adventure book. Despite that the DnA run was still successful and quality until it ended
    Last edited by Dboi2001; 09-06-2020 at 07:19 PM.

  10. #535
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    On the topic of differences in characterization between the print and screen versions of characters, i notice that i'm actualy much more hoping for a new animated X-men series, than what ever the movies directly will bring.

    Not that i disregard the movies, but to me it feels like cartoons are much better suited to realise the scope of the X-men with their massive collection of characters, teams and stories, than the movies which have to distill everything into 2 hours.

    And while the cartoons can work better to give much more light on the far larger cast of characters the X-men have compared to the Avengers and Fantastic Four, they also have the advantage of simplifing and streamlining things for better understanding.

    But this makes me wonder if a new X-men cartoon should be stand alone, or perhaps be used for a multi-media project where the cartoons give spotlight to other X-men teams, tying into the upcomming movies. Somewhat like how Star Wars the Clone Wars, Rebels and Resistance filled blanks between movies.

    Essentialy providing the easier to digest cartoon takes on the large canon, while giving spotlight to characters who can't show up in the movies because there is only so much space in 2 hours.
    Last edited by Grunty; 09-06-2020 at 06:57 PM.

  11. #536
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    On the topic of differences in characterization between the print and screen versions of characters, i notice that i'm actualy much more hoping for a new animated X-men series, than what ever the movies directly will bring.

    Not that i disregard the movies, but to me it feels like cartoons are much better suited to realise the scope of the X-men with their massive collection of characters, teams and stories, than the movies which have to distill everything into 2 hours.

    And while the cartoons can work better to give much more light on the far larger cast of characters the X-men have compared to the Avengers and Fantastic Four, they also have the advantage of simplifing and streamlining things for better understanding.

    But this makes me wonder if a new X-men cartoon should be stand alone, or perhaps be used for a multi-media project where the cartoons give spotlight to other X-men teams, tying into the upcomming movies. Somewhat like how Star Wars the Clone Wars, Rebels and Resistance filled blanks between movies.

    Essentialy providing the easier to digest cartoon takes on the large canon, while giving spotlight to characters who can't show up in the movies because there is only so much space in 2 hours.
    Long term character work is also better done by a good television show. Personally I feel that the X-Men would be better served by a Disney+ or HBO treatment, although preferably without the narrative falling apart at the end over the need to shock the audience like Game of Thrones did.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  12. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I didn't bring up the multiple reboots to GotG and Starlord in particular to say that any of the comics were bad, but to point out wildly different characterizations, origins, and personalities to the character. The changes the movies made to him are of a similar scale to what the comics have done in the past.

    Those weren't the level of changes a top tier character gets when shifting to a new writer, (the core Avengers and X-Men may evolve, but they don't typically get reimagining outside of alternate universe stories) they were more along the lines of what happens to characters like Power Girl or Donna Troy after a DC Crisis, where the new origin makes the previous one impossible. Calling out the films for doing what the comics have done more than once seems a bit hypocritical to me.
    Ive never said GotG was innately wrong for not being accurate. I think they are fine movies. I’ve said several times before I really don’t care if an adaptation changes things drastically since it’s just its own one time thing. The difference is I don’t expect the movies to influence the comics (even though they inevitably do). Thing about marvel is start Star lord in the 60s is the same Star lord as in DNA’s run as the Bendis’ Star lord which makes no sense to me. My issue is when people say “X Men isn’t accurate and changes things therefore it is bad” when the mcu changes it far more. Do I don’t care about the changes made by Fox just like I don’t care for about the changes the mcu makes as long as the product is quality. My only issue is how blatantly marvel has made the comics copy the movies instead of letting it be it’s own thing

  13. #538
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    I've got nothing against Feige personally. I'm optimistic that X-men films going forward will at least be more consistently good than FOX's track record.

    But at the same time, I'm a realist in acknowledging that I'll probably never see a faithful adaptation of William Stryker and the Purifiers, even if Disney decides to produce future R-rated superhero films. Which is sad, because personal experience and current events makes them the most relevant X-villains to me. At least I can be content with a faithful adaptation of Reverend Craig, even if he looked a little too much like Fat Bastard.
    MAGNETO was right,TONY was right, VARYS was right.

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  14. #539
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Agree with the posters above; I hate floppies. Trades all the way!

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Thanks for video.
    Sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I respect what some Kevin Feige fans do when they try to find deeper subtext beyond the fluff of MCU movies but it doesn't change anything when it matters.
    Not much of that was "subtext." I mean, the relational stuff is part of the main plot and addressed onscreen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    X-Men has shown 10x the complexity because complexity requires more difficult stories than fluff. it doesnt change that GOTG is fluff light hearted comedy and Logan or DOFP are not, it doesn't change that GOTG is a mickey mouse movie at best, it doesn't change that GOTG does not carry any of the brash brutal grounded realism of xmen or batman, it doesn't change that Disney still would have nixed many of the other complex themes that other movies would have been able to do.
    None of that, esp. the bolded is complexity by default, nor does being darker or more serious automatically mean deeper (consider Pixar -- esp. stuff like the Toy Story movies, Inside Out or Up -- noted for being very colorful and full of laughs, but also making us cry and think). Does Guardians talk about social issues? No. However, it's complexity comes in exploring its characters, who are developed to be more then the concepts they are on paper. When done well, both forms of complexity are the mark of good writing and a story/book/movie/whatever that's more then the sum of its parts. (Also, have to say that with the X-Men film series including stuff like the first Wolverine movie and Apocalypse, there seems to be room in that franchise for both deep storytelling and pure fluff.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Reducing X-Men down to GOTG feels out of character, when we know Deadpool is comedy X-Men.
    No one ever said that. In fact, I'd rather see the MCU X-Men reboot skew closer to Winter Solider in tone, with the balance of characters' screen time we see in the Avengers movies (in other words, call the Russo brothers to direct?). The only point I was making is that at least some of the MCU movies are deeper then you're giving them credit for and that the whole idea that because they're colorful and funny they are just fluff is just plain wrong (as is X-Men, the Synder DC movies, and whatever you want to shake a stick being inherently deep and mature just because the color was sucked out and they're generally humorous).
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  15. #540
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    X-men will be fine with Feige
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-06-2020 at 11:23 PM. Reason: moving on, off topic, convo is going no where

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