Should Batman's world start off grounded and become fantastical, or vice versa?

[Care Bear]

Hi, just joined the forum. Huge fan of all things Batman.

This is just something I've been pondering: In the early stages of Batman's career should Gotham be depicted as a more realistic and grounded setting with him fighting plainclothes crooks and gangsters and gradually transition to a more colorful and larger than life world of costumed supervillains, or, should it be the other way around, with it starting out colorful and fantastical and gradually transforming into a darker and grimmer world overtime. Personally, I prefer the former interpretation as I find it more interesting to see the grounded world of ordinary gangsters breaking down and giving way to a more outlandish world of costumed super-villainy, like in The Long Halloween. That being said though, there are stories, that support the latter interpretation like The Dark Knight Returns. Granted we don't really see the backstory to that world, but it's easy to imagine that it started off lighthearted and whimsical and became darker over time, particularly after reading Alan Moore's introduction in the original Trade Paperback.

What do you think? This is my first post. Sorry if it's a bit rambling!

[Frontier]

I think most canon's usually go with the former interpretation that Batman started out fighting normal criminals and mobsters before costumed Supervillains with gimmicks became the norm in Gotham and the age of heroes kicked off with the other, more colorful and powered, Superheroes showing up.

[sifighter]

As someone who really likes the crazy world that is the dc shared universe I prefer for Batman to start off more grounded and then see the fantastical elements appear. You know start off with the standard origin, parents killed by some random thug in an alley which drives him to become the street level Batman he becomes in whatever first year story origin exists.

However after that really should come his introduction into the wider DC universe, learning that aliens of multiple races exist, that amazons and Greek mythology are real, that there are space cops and speedsters, Atlantean sea dwellers, mad scientist, time travelers, cities of intellectual apes, magic users, gods and literal demons. This should there by effect him and his playbook as he goes out into the wider world and experiences new ways to fight crime.

[batnbreakfast]

Vampires and Monster Men are fine. Its when Batman moves beyond that I stop enjoying the issue/trade/OGN/movie. The older I get the more I gravitate towards pulps and "grounded" superhero stories.

[godisawesome]

Eh, I’m kind of torn.

My favorite origins for Batman are a bit more extreme than grounded, but I don’t know if they really start more fantastical. I find Year One and Earth One both a little boring in parts because they seek to really, really emphasize a grounded story first, but I like Batman Begins bringing in a secret group of ninja-terrorists who wouldn’t be out of place in a Bond film, and I loved Zero Year using the Red Hood gang as a likewise “colorful crooks on steroids” approach... but I also enjoy both avoiding superpowers outright.

I guess I’m a bigger fan of starting out “grounded” but not “mundane and grounded” - I prefer that if his earliest enemies are mortal crooks and criminals, that they still be outstandingly exceptional crooks and criminals. Another aspect might be that I like the idea that the rise of “freaks” isn’t actually a reaction to Batman arriving - I like the idea that there were always some freaks, they were just less colorful and served a more “enforcer” type of role, with Gotham kind of already needing a Batman, and with the “freaks” getting more publicity once the more mundane criminal leadership took a few hits.

To use a specific “grounded criminal” as an example adversary....

Carmine Falcone being a regular fearsome mob boss? Eh, I’ll pass. Carmine Falcone being a mob boss who would scare the crap out fo Al Capone and Pablo Escobar with his resources and access to larger than life enforcers, even if they’re still technically human? That’s more like it.

This might be why I find myself more consistently hyped by “sophomore Batman” stories than “freshman Batman” stories - you get the advantage of a rookie and rough Batman, and he can still being mildly surprised by some of the people he has to face, but he’s already a level above more realistic burglars and street “soldiers.”

[Arsenal]

Now that you mention it, I suppose grounded with hints of the fantastical would be my ideal starting place as well.

[Restingvoice]

Joe Chill killed his parents. That's the crime Batman prepares himself. Then comes the mob, the vampires, the supervillains.
If the canon makes sense I go with canon, so the first one
That doesn't mean the mundane disappear with the coming of the supernatural and fantastical
They just add to it
As for how mundane, depend on the larger DCU, did Alan Scott, Grundy, The Court and Ra's operate in Gotham before him?

[regg215]

I think one of the only things that Arrow really got right was the way it approached his world evolving from a standard grounded world of villains to slowly evolving into a more fantastical world. Having batman tackle the mob and organized crime and then slow shifting into superpowered but explainable characters like bane or mr freeze, where it essentially like enhanced steroids or technology. Then eventually becoming a fully super powered universe. I loved it in arrow because it continually made Oliver evolve by the end of season 1 where it was all mob dealers and regular assassins it was hard to believe anyone could challenge him in a fight, then deathstroke is introduced and he has to overcome enhanced individuals and then by season 3 or 4 he is dealing with fully powered up people. I think a similar approach for batman is great because it continually challenges batman to improve his skills and weaponry.

[Jackalope89]

With characters like Ivy, Clayface, R'as, and who knows how many more minor characters with access to such abilities, Bats hasn't really been "grounded" for sometime, even when confined to his own books.

[bat39]

Its interesting, because we've kinda seen it happen both ways.

From a real-world publishing perspective, the trajectory of the Batman mythos has been from fantastical to (relatively) grounded. Sure, the very first Kane/Finger 'Bat-Man' stories were about solving ordinary crimes, but it didn't take long for the vampires, monster men and dirigibles of doom to start showing up. Followed soon thereafter by the likes of Joker, Catwoman, Penguin and the rest of the classic rogues. Through the late 40's, 50's and 60's, the Batman 'franchise', such as it was, was a reasonably light-hearted pulp-y place with supervillains, monsters, aliens, and even the odd normal crook!

Gradually, Batman and his world started to get more serious around the 70's. He went solo, his stories became a bit more noir-ish and grounded, his adventures began to get darker and a bit more grounded. The culmination of this of course was DKR and Year One, and the character has, barring a few exceptions and throwbacks, never looked back since!

If you think about it, DKR, whether intentionally or not, virtually serves as a commentary on this trend. Its a story about how the bright and colorful world of superheroes from the 50's and 60's eventually led to the cynical, violent and psychologically complex world of anti-heroes of the 80's. Batman went from trading punches with the Joker and Penguin to having to deal with a threat like the Mutants. Superman became a tool in the hands of a corrupt government. Robin is not an orphaned daredevil circus acrobat, but a neglected teenager of junkie parents. And so on.

Paradoxically enough, you then have stories like Year One which present the in-universe narrative as being the opposite - Batman's world started as being dark and grounded, but gradually became more fantastical, and even a bit light-hearted, over time. Grant Morrison ran with this approach in his run - there's this brilliant moment, set around Year 5 of Batman's career, where Bruce reflects on how he started this crusade to fight a war against crime, and now he has to deal with some truly weird stuff.

So honestly, the precedent works in both directions. Or you can argue that its cyclical - Batman's world starts off dark, then gets lighter, then gets darker, and so on and so forth ad infinitum. Kinda a mirror to real-world pop-cultural tastes.

Eh, I’m kind of torn.

My favorite origins for Batman are a bit more extreme than grounded, but I don’t know if they really start more fantastical. I find Year One and Earth One both a little boring in parts because they seek to really, really emphasize a grounded story first, but I like Batman Begins bringing in a secret group of ninja-terrorists who wouldn’t be out of place in a Bond film, and I loved Zero Year using the Red Hood gang as a likewise “colorful crooks on steroids” approach... but I also enjoy both avoiding superpowers outright.

I guess I’m a bigger fan of starting out “grounded” but not “mundane and grounded” - I prefer that if his earliest enemies are mortal crooks and criminals, that they still be outstandingly exceptional crooks and criminals. Another aspect might be that I like the idea that the rise of “freaks” isn’t actually a reaction to Batman arriving - I like the idea that there were always some freaks, they were just less colorful and served a more “enforcer” type of role, with Gotham kind of already needing a Batman, and with the “freaks” getting more publicity once the more mundane criminal leadership took a few hits.

To use a specific “grounded criminal” as an example adversary....

Carmine Falcone being a regular fearsome mob boss? Eh, I’ll pass. Carmine Falcone being a mob boss who would scare the crap out fo Al Capone and Pablo Escobar with his resources and access to larger than life enforcers, even if they’re still technically human? That’s more like it.

This might be why I find myself more consistently hyped by “sophomore Batman” stories than “freshman Batman” stories - you get the advantage of a rookie and rough Batman, and he can still being mildly surprised by some of the people he has to face, but he’s already a level above more realistic burglars and street “soldiers.”

Yeah I get what you mean. I'm really interested to see how Falcone is portrayed in the upcoming Reeves movie. Between Batman Begins, Gotham and a lot more exposure in the comics over the past decade or two, his stature as a villain has certainly grown and I don't think he's "just another Mob boss" anymore. Kinda hoping Reeves finds a way to present him as a truly formidable adversary to Batman, maybe even a proto-'super villain' of sorts, rather than just the figurehead of organized crime who needs to be toppled for the 'real' villains to show up.

Scott Snyder made a great argument in favor of Batman's world being fantastical right from the start. His point was that Year One was written at a time where the most relatable threat to most people would be getting gunned down by a street criminal. While today, its greater, more existential threats like violent extremism or environmental cataclysm. Hence, his Batman started out not taking on the Mob, but rather the Red Hood Gang and eventually a Riddler who lets loose the apocalypse on Gotham.

[Coal Tiger]

I like the idea that Batman intended to being down organized crime and police corruption, but he inadvertently gave rise to supercrime as these fantastical criminals rose up almost in response to him. Sure, there might have been fantastical elements in the shadows from the beginning, but Batman made them rise up into the light. Guys like Riddler probably would have been criminals either way, but the existence of Batman makes him put on the green question mark jacket - Batman allows all these guys to let their freak flag fly.

[gregpersons]

What a lovely topic. Great posts and points made already. bat39 and godisawesome neatly lined out the publishing history angle, with a great new insight into DKR that I'd never heard articulated like that quite before. Love it.

I also think "Year Two" is the more interesting starting point now because we're more than familiar with Batman and Gotham. The reality is that "The Batman" is the umpeenth entry in the ongoing film series, whether it's a new universe or not, it still exists in OUR universe, where we have seen "Batman Begins" and "Batman '89" and "Batman v Superman" and "The Dark Knight Rises" and so on. There's a lot of ground that's been covered. What hasn't really been covered is seeing everyone all together -- the full rogues gallery; the full Arkham Asylum; the vibrant Gotham City teeming with rogues and corruption that we know so well from every other Bat-media EXCEPT the live action films, where the villains are more "once in a lifetime" threats.

I think a central question one has to answer when deciding on their take on Batman is -- who has the first idea for a mask? Is it Batman, or is it Gotham's rogues? We know Bruce is influenced by media, Zorro or Gray Ghost or otherwise, so the answer seems logical that it would be Gotham's rogues. In that context, "The Batman" is not a wild idea in a city where mob bosses are known as "The Roman" and "The Penguin" and "The Riddler" ... it's just that "The Batman" isn't playing by the old rules.

[bat39]

What a lovely topic. Great posts and points made already. bat39 and godisawesome neatly lined out the publishing history angle, with a great new insight into DKR that I'd never heard articulated like that quite before. Love it.

I also think "Year Two" is the more interesting starting point now because we're more than familiar with Batman and Gotham. The reality is that "The Batman" is the umpeenth entry in the ongoing film series, whether it's a new universe or not, it still exists in OUR universe, where we have seen "Batman Begins" and "Batman '89" and "Batman v Superman" and "The Dark Knight Rises" and so on. There's a lot of ground that's been covered. What hasn't really been covered is seeing everyone all together -- the full rogues gallery; the full Arkham Asylum; the vibrant Gotham City teeming with rogues and corruption that we know so well from every other Bat-media EXCEPT the live action films, where the villains are more "once in a lifetime" threats.

I think a central question one has to answer when deciding on their take on Batman is -- who has the first idea for a mask? Is it Batman, or is it Gotham's rogues? We know Bruce is influenced by media, Zorro or Gray Ghost or otherwise, so the answer seems logical that it would be Gotham's rogues. In that context, "The Batman" is not a wild idea in a city where mob bosses are known as "The Roman" and "The Penguin" and "The Riddler" ... it's just that "The Batman" isn't playing by the old rules.

That's an interesting thought, and particularly relevant in the wake of Gotham (which had many of the villains show up in some form while Bruce was still a teenager) and Joker (which literally has a Joker copycat as spoilers:

the Wayne killer

end of spoilers).

I'm not sold on the idea of there being someone in a full-fledged costume and mask running around Gotham before Batman. As in, I'm okay with other heroes like Wildcat or Black Canary having a history in Gotham before Batman. But no one from the Batman mythos.

That said, the villains could have had their nicknames and quirks before Batman - the Penguin being a great example of this. And you could have stuff like the Red Hood Gang. I can even imagine someone like Black Mask pre-dating Batman. And you could have Selina being known as 'the Cat'. But Batman putting on the suit is the first time we had a full-fledged costumed figure running around Gotham (Golden Age heroes notwithstanding).

I personally feel the world Batman begins in needs to have some grounding in 'traditional' crime because that's what created Batman. Bruce becomes Batman because a gunman murdered his parents in a dark alleyway, and he was either a mugger/small-time criminal or a hitman for the Mob. Bruce becomes Batman to fight people like Joe Chill, and their bosses. So its important that he at least starts out in a world where someone like Joe Chill is still around preying on people. It doesn't make sense for Bruce to become Batman, and his first mission is fighting Mr. Freeze!

The Red Hood Gang worked for me in Zero Year because they're still somewhat grounded in 'traditional' crime. They were basically bank robbers wearing masks (it just so happens that their masks were particularly fancy). Bruce first becomes Batman to take them on and only after that does he deal with the post-apocalyptic wasteland that the Riddler makes out of Gotham! Just like how in Batman Begins Bruce first takes down Carmine Falcone, before having to deal with Ra's al Ghul (who's motivations were tied to Gotham's crime and corruption as well).

[Frontier]

Yeah I get what you mean. I'm really interested to see how Falcone is portrayed in the upcoming Reeves movie. Between Batman Begins, Gotham and a lot more exposure in the comics over the past decade or two, his stature as a villain has certainly grown and I don't think he's "just another Mob boss" anymore. Kinda hoping Reeves finds a way to present him as a truly formidable adversary to Batman, maybe even a proto-'super villain' of sorts, rather than just the figurehead of organized crime who needs to be toppled for the 'real' villains to show up.

I feel like Falcone works best as one of the last vestiges of the "old guard" of American crime and representing the old days of organized crimes before Supervillains came and mucked it up. Falcone hated the freaks and he ended up being undone by one of them (Two-Face).

I like the idea that Batman intended to being down organized crime and police corruption, but he inadvertently gave rise to supercrime as these fantastical criminals rose up almost in response to him. Sure, there might have been fantastical elements in the shadows from the beginning, but Batman made them rise up into the light. Guys like Riddler probably would have been criminals either way, but the existence of Batman makes him put on the green question mark jacket - Batman allows all these guys to let their freak flag fly.

It depends how you look at it.

Like, obviously Batman is partially responsible for Joker falling into the vat at Ace Chemicals and becoming The Joker (and eventually creating Harley Quinn) but Penguin would probably be the same with or without a Batman.

Harvey had mental problems before he became Two-Face and the scarring that exacerbated it was out of Batman's hands.

Ivy would have probably become Ivy without Batman being around. Same with Croc.

Would Crane have gone as off the deep end without someone like Batman swinging around? Maybe.

[prepmaster]

Grounded world with fantastical elements to shake things up.

Killer Croc, Man-Bat are animal themed, Mr.Freeze is ice themed, Ivy is plant themed, Clayface is a shape shifter. They all provide interesting visuals.