Saying Iron Man wasn't well known before 2008 is ridiculous (comics)

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Pop culture wise there was the song,

The Black Sabbath song had absolutely nothing to do with Tony Stark, it was a pure coincidence.

I think sometimes in order to elevate the MCU people act like he was just this unknown character that only hardcore comic book readers knew

I think the reverse applies here. Fans of comics!IM want to play up Tony's history before RDJ to make it like it was "in the cards all along". There's a defensiveness and an interest to get readers engaged in back issues to give it a try, which is fair. But then there's this, which is going too far in the other direction and is basically an exaggeration.

Iron Man was definitely the "lesser star" of Marvel. He was never the top seller, never the guy with the interesting villains or supporting cast, not as popular and beloved as Spider-Man, not as smart as Reed Richards, not as interesting and radical (in story and content) as the X-Men. He doesn't have the connection to history as Captain America does as an actual political propaganda cartoon against the last consensually approved good war, which is what allows Cap to transcend the baggage and issues he would be caught in, and allows people to refresh and change him. As far as right-wing coded superheroes go, The Punisher is bigger in that base then Tony is and will ever be.

If we think about the greatest Iron Man stories, I don't think they would measure to the 50 greatest Spider-Man stories in terms of quality, fame, importance, and influence. Leave along the 50 greatest X-Men stories.

I mean which of Iron Man's stories is on the level of Frank Miller's run on Daredevil, Walt Simonson's run on The Mighty Thor, or Englehart on Captain America?

Let's face it, RDJ is supremely responsible for elevating Iron Man's profile that the comics' character himself never achieved on the strength of his issues.

[Ultimate Captain America]

As for the song... read the lyrics and tell me if they sound anything like Tony Stark (specially 1970's Tony Stark, when the song was released)

Iron Man


Has he lost his mind?
Can he see or is he blind?
Is he alive or dead?
Has he thoughts within his head?
He was turned to steel
In the great magnetic field
Where he traveled time
For the future of mankind

Nobody wants him
He just stares at the world
Planning his vengeance
That he will soon unfold

Now the time is here
For Iron Man to spread fear
Vengeance from the grave
Kills the people he once saved

Nobody wants him
They just turn their heads
Nobody helps him
Now he has his revenge

Heavy boots of lead
Fills his victims full of dread
Running as fast as they can
Iron Man lives again!

[TheCape]

As for the song... read the lyrics and tell me if they sound anything like Tony Stark (specially 1970's Tony Stark, when the song was released)

Iron Man


Has he lost his mind?
Can he see or is he blind?
Is he alive or dead?
Has he thoughts within his head?
He was turned to steel
In the great magnetic field
Where he traveled time
For the future of mankind

Nobody wants him
He just stares at the world
Planning his vengeance
That he will soon unfold

Now the time is here
For Iron Man to spread fear
Vengeance from the grave
Kills the people he once saved

Nobody wants him
They just turn their heads
Nobody helps him
Now he has his revenge

Heavy boots of lead
Fills his victims full of dread
Running as fast as they can
Iron Man lives again!

Maybe is my lack of familiarity with 70s Iron Man. But this sounds more like Robocop than Tony Stark to me and yes i'm very aware that Robocop wasn't a thing the 70s and he didn't inspire this song either. But this really doesn't feel like Tony, especially the revenge part. Unless that Tony really was obssesed with retribution in that era.

[charliehustle415]

But was Iron Man the most notable thing about Civil War?

The big thing which made CIVIL WAR hit the newspapers was Spider-Man unmasking in that story. Would CIVIL WAR have been so big without a headlines-grabbing gotcha' like that?

Also Dark Reign came about because of his failures as the Director of SHIELD, World War Hulk happened because of him and the Illuminati, he was also a pretty popular character in the MvC games too

So, I would thing he had a hand in some of the most influential storylines in the Marvel Universe

[Ultimate Captain America]

Maybe is my lack of familiarity with 70s Iron Man. But this sounds more like Robocop than Tony Stark to me and yes i'm very aware that Robocop wasn't a thing the 70s and he didn't inspire this song either. But this really doesn't feel like Tony, especially the revenge part. Unless that Tony really was obssesed with retribution in that era.

The answer is simply no, the song is not based on the character from Marvel, Black Sabbath simply made up a character for a song, and that's it.

Now that I think of it... were the comics of Marvel published in the United Kingdom in 1970? Was the "Marvel Super Heroes" animated shorts aired there? Did Black Sabbath even know that there was a comic book character with this name when they wrote the song?

[Tony Stark]

P
[=Revolutionary_Jack;5125711]The Black Sabbath song had absolutely nothing to do with Tony Stark, it was a pure coincidence.



I think the reverse applies here. Fans of comics!IM want to play up Tony's history before RDJ to make it like it was "in the cards all along". There's a defensiveness and an interest to get readers engaged in back issues to give it a try, which is fair. But then there's this, which is going too far in the other direction and is basically an exaggeration.

Iron Man was definitely the "lesser star" of Marvel. He was never the top seller, never the guy with the interesting villains or supporting cast, not as popular and beloved as Spider-Man, not as smart as Reed Richards, not as interesting and radical (in story and content) as the X-Men. He doesn't have the connection to history as Captain America does as an actual political propaganda cartoon against the last consensually approved good war, which is what allows Cap to transcend the baggage and issues he would be caught in, and allows people to refresh and change him. As far as right-wing coded superheroes go, The Punisher is bigger in that base then Tony is and will ever be.

If we think about the greatest Iron Man stories, I don't think they would measure to the 50 greatest Spider-Man stories in terms of quality, fame, importance, and influence. Leave along the 50 greatest X-Men stories.

I mean which of Iron Man's stories is on the level of Frank Miller's run on Daredevil, Walt Simonson's run on The Mighty Thor, or Englehart on Captain America?

Let's face it, RDJ is supremely responsible for elevating Iron Man's profile that the comics' character himself never achieved on the strength of his issues.[/QUOTE]

It sounds to me like you have a strong dislike for Iron Man and a strong affinity for Spider-Man. Am I right? You give no credit to Michiline/Layton runs. The Denny O’Neal run, John Byrnes rum or Len Kamanski’s run. You try and pass your opinions off as facts and I’m not buying it. If he doesn’t have a good rogues gallery or great runs then how has he been around so long?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

It sounds to me like you have a strong dislike for Iron Man

I do not dislike Iron Man. But I don’t like him either. I am in the middle, on the fence between like and dislike.

Am I right?

A thread about IM’s reputation naturally addresses people outside the IM base. So I should think people should expect the views from those who aren’t super fans of Tony.

You give no credit to Michiline/Layton runs.

I do like those runs but whenever people talk of great marvel stories or great runs, they never enter the conversation with Claremont, Miller or Simonson.

If he doesn’t have a good rogues gallery or great runs then how has he been around so long?

Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern don’t have great rogues or cool supporting or at least they didn’t in the classic period of comics.

Longevity happens for many reasons.

[Tony Stark]

Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern don’t have great rogues or cool supporting or at least they didn’t in the classic period of comics.

Longevity happens for many reasons.

Notice that all the characters you name here are ICONS. Again what are some of the many reasons Iron Man has had longevity?

[regg215]

The Black Sabbath song had absolutely nothing to do with Tony Stark, it was a pure coincidence.



I think the reverse applies here. Fans of comics!IM want to play up Tony's history before RDJ to make it like it was "in the cards all along". There's a defensiveness and an interest to get readers engaged in back issues to give it a try, which is fair. But then there's this, which is going too far in the other direction and is basically an exaggeration.

Iron Man was definitely the "lesser star" of Marvel. He was never the top seller, never the guy with the interesting villains or supporting cast, not as popular and beloved as Spider-Man, not as smart as Reed Richards, not as interesting and radical (in story and content) as the X-Men. He doesn't have the connection to history as Captain America does as an actual political propaganda cartoon against the last consensually approved good war, which is what allows Cap to transcend the baggage and issues he would be caught in, and allows people to refresh and change him. As far as right-wing coded superheroes go, The Punisher is bigger in that base then Tony is and will ever be.

If we think about the greatest Iron Man stories, I don't think they would measure to the 50 greatest Spider-Man stories in terms of quality, fame, importance, and influence. Leave along the 50 greatest X-Men stories.

I mean which of Iron Man's stories is on the level of Frank Miller's run on Daredevil, Walt Simonson's run on The Mighty Thor, or Englehart on Captain America?

Let's face it, RDJ is supremely responsible for elevating Iron Man's profile that the comics' character himself never achieved on the strength of his issues.

Sorry my fault for not clarifying, didn't mean the black sabbath song, which is a lot more popular so I should have clarified, I meant the classic 60's Iron man Cartoon song, which i knew really well as a child but that is probably since my dad was a huge comics fan and used to sing the "Tony stark makes you feel.." song and "when Captain America throw's his mighty shield " song to me all the time when I was really young. Although I guess they may not have been as popular with everyone as they were with me.

Would absolutely agree that RDJ absolutely took the character to a level he was never close to before, where Iron Man is basically behind only Spidey ( Maybe Wolverine) in terms of popularity. I just think at times people act like the MCU just took absolute nobodies that had zero notoriety before the movies and that doesn't ring true to me for Iron Man. MCU has absolutely done that for Guardians and characters like Vision, Hawkeye, and Ant man, but Iron Man was at least in that 2nd tier of heroes behind the true pop culture icons like Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Spidey and I guess due to the 70's show the Hulk. Its true he didn't have as many classic runs but stuff like Demon in a bottle was really well know and regarded highly by most comic fans even prior to the movies.

[your_name_here]

Iron-Man has always been known. But known and well-known are two different things, and he certainly had his status elevated from Civil War onwards.

As said earlier by another poster, it’s the character of Tony Stark that gives him longevity. One of the best, complex heroes around.

[Username taken]

Iron man has been well known. Not a household name like Spider-man or Batman but he already had media exposure in cartoons and games prior to the 2008 film.

If I remember correctly, Micheline's run was a pretty big seller back in the day. And his role in Marvel was increased due to Civil War.

Like I said, Iron man wasn't Spider-man or X-men but he was not an "obscure" character.

[Jekyll]

Iron Man had an animated series in 1994, but I'm not sure if it counts. As far as I know, its success was nowhere near the one of the X-Men and Spider-Man animated series of that time.

Loved this cartoon as a kid and it was what really drew me into Iron Man, but it has not aged well!

I also had a couple of Kamanski (spelling?) issues mainly because of the cool Armour Tony had in those runs.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Notice that all the characters you name here are ICONS.

Wonder Woman certainly. But The Flash and Green Lantern? Well their costumes and props are iconic but the people behind those costumes aren't so. For a lot of people The Flash is Wally West, for others it's Barry Allen. For a lot of people GL is Hal Jordan, for others it's Kyle Rayner, for others it's John Stewart.

Again what are some of the many reasons Iron Man has had longevity?

First and foremost, luck. Which to be fair, everyone needs a good deal of and without luck even Superman and Batman would have fallen.

Second, comics from the '60s to about the 90s or so, had a higher readership than any time after that. So that meant that titles could breathe longer. So even if Iron Man never broke into mainstream in the '80s with the big boys like X-Men and Spider-Man, he was still able to dodge cancellation. David Michelinie wrote Iron Man and then moved on to writing Spider-Man. Usually when writers do a run on two or more characters you tend to see crossovers (sometimes a little, sometimes a lot) between them, but in Michelinie's entire run on ASM, he never once referred to or introduced Iron Man or did anything like that. That indicates how low IM was compared to Spider-Man in that period.

Third, Iron Man is a big-league Avenger, next to Cap and Thor, so he was important in the wider continuity sense as a member of a super-team.

Fourth, editorial interest. Iron Man was given many second chances and many college tries. He was a character Marvel entirely owned and as such wasn't subject to disputes like with other Marvel creations, so that made Marvel invest a great deal in keeping him afloat, should Kirby and Ditko get the lawyers. IM was given support that for instance wasn't always extended to titles with say a female protagonist or a POC and so on.

Fifth, Iron Man's comics were never entirely great but they weren't outright bad, so they managed to provide readers a good steady consistent supply of the same old and same old, a bit like Garfield (which aesthetically is not considered a great comic strip at all). So that helps with longevity too.

Longevity like everything else isn't some objective criteria for excellence. The fact is that the history of comics is filled with great titles and characters that never got a fair chance, never got marketed, or had owners who didn't understand the situation. Take Fawcett's Captain Marvel, in the '40s he was the biggest superhero in the planet, outsold Superman, innovated in multimedia adaptations and yet a poorly arranged legal battle led them to drop out of the hero business. Had Fawcett had better lawyers, they could have defended and kept a hold on their property and who knows, maybe Superman goes under and Billy Batson becomes the cultural touchstone for a superhero that Superman only really became in the '50s.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Would absolutely agree that RDJ absolutely took the character to a level he was never close to before, where Iron Man is basically behind only Spidey ( Maybe Wolverine) in terms of popularity.

In the movies certainly. But RDJ's popularity in the movies hasn't translated to the character's popularity in comics or merchandise. In terms of merchandise, Spider-Man makes more than $1bn annually more than any other character including Superman and Batman leave alone the rest of Marvel crop. Remember that merchandise is the real introduction of characters. Babies, toddlers, small kids who are too young to read (or understand) comics and movies see the icons, faces, and figures in toys, stickers, label, backpacks, and so on. They come to recognize who Spider-Man is long before they find out anything else about him.

I just think at times people act like the MCU just took absolute nobodies that had zero notoriety before the movies and that doesn't ring true to me for Iron Man.

Iron Man wasn't Guardians of the Galaxy, nor was he Ant-Man (the reason Hank Pym had all that drama in Avengers titles was that he couldn't command his own ongoing). I wouldn't say he was Black Panther (which until Christopher Priest's run was a fairly obscure character albeit with some amount of prestige) or Captain Marvel either.

But the superhero landscape in 2008 was defined by the successes of the first Superman movies, the Batman movies of Burton and Nolan, Raimi's Spider-Man movies. In the next run you had the X-Men whose movies did well but were never as commercially successful as the Spider-Man movies. Hulk by Ang Lee failed. Blade was a cult success. Fantastic Four was disappointing. So there was definitely a sense in 2007-2008 that Marvel was resting entirely on Spidey's shoulders. So in that context, Iron Man breaking big was a big change and surprise. And that didn't come from the comics, it came from the movies.

Ultimately RDJ marked the most glorious chapter in the history of IM as an intellectual property, achieving far more fully Stan Lee's original concept of making fans root for an arms dealer they'd dislike politically, than he ever did in the comics itself.

[Triniking1234]

This seems like a weird question for a comics forum since most of us would have some memory of Iron Man during the pre-MCU era. As someone mentioned he was in a lot of animated features before that and cartoons were more available internationally than comic books so that would've helped his popularity. I remember when the FOX Avengers cartoon came out, people were mad it didn't have him and Cap as main characters.