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  1. #31
    Fantastic Member basbash99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regnak View Post
    They should not have given Rey both the Jedi and Han Solo skill sets, she should have had one and Finn the other, that gives 2 legendary heroes instead they went with a goddess and a disappointment.
    That's a pretty good point, actually.

    Boyega does have every right to be upset - he went from the most interesting character in TFA to an afterthought with little in the way of accomplishments in the next two. Sure he beat Phasma in TLJ but he also defeated her in TFA. And i love Rose lecturing Finn about the plight of children forced into servitude - Finn, who as a child was forced into being a stormtrooper. lol.

    That said, pretty much all of the characters were ill-served by TLJ and TROS. Rey and Ren probably got the best treatment but that's not saying much.

    I'm not sure about the racial component.. there is little to suggest that within the Star Wars universe there is discrimination based on skin color. People are discriminated based on what planet they hail from, and what their species is, seemingly. of course for the audience, it is important that different races and ethnicities are represented, i'm just not necessarily sure i would expect the arc for a character played by a POC to play out differently than if the character was played by a white person.

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    If Disney had a had a real plan from he start they would have had things mapped out. Character A starts here goes here and then ends here. Character B the same and so on. They didn't do that. They had one director set things up and then just told the next guy "just do whatever you want don't worry about" which just sent the whole thing spiralling out of control into total nonsesence. You can tell that whatever JJ had in mind for Finn it was thrown out the window so Rian could shift the entire focus to Rey and Kylo. Same with Poe as he just was there in TLJ to be the fool to prop up Rian's new character Hodo. There was so much damage done by Rian in the TLJ that to turn things back around and give the characters the screen time they would have needed to get back on track they would have had to change this from 3 movies to probably 5.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    When I saw The Force Awakens I thought Finn was gonna be a jedi and I was super excited when I saw the ex-stormtrooper pick up Anakins lightsaber. I was so disappointed when I saw the next two movies when Finn didn't get the screen time and importance his character deserved.Finn's character's treatment remind of that of Yuzu Hiiragi from Yu-Gi-Oh ARC-V. Both characters were first introduced with lots of potential, but at the end they were just clickbait characters, as after certain time, they were ended being below the shadows of their former selves, only served as damsels on distress, and saying the main characters' names, ~sighs. I wish better luck to John Boyega for his career.
    I think this character was already poorly written in Force Awakens.
    I mean he was supposed to be raised and trained like a Clone Trooper from a pretty young age but he acted like someone who got drafted and put into a suit 5 minutes before the movie started.

    It is really wired that after being in to big blockbuster franchises (Star Wars and Pacific Rim) Attack the Block is still by far the best movie he has been in.

  4. #34
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    When I saw The Force Awakens I thought Finn was gonna be a jedi and I was super excited when I saw the ex-stormtrooper pick up Anakins lightsaber. I was so disappointed when I saw the next two movies when Finn didn't get the screen time and importance his character deserved.Finn's character's treatment remind of that of Yuzu Hiiragi from Yu-Gi-Oh ARC-V. Both characters were first introduced with lots of potential, but at the end they were just clickbait characters, as after certain time, they were ended being below the shadows of their former selves, only served as damsels on distress, and saying the main characters' names, ~sighs. I wish better luck to John Boyega for his career.
    Eh, I've just come to accept that Yugioh will never treat its female characters competently.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by basbash99 View Post
    I'm not sure about the racial component.. there is little to suggest that within the Star Wars universe there is discrimination based on skin color. People are discriminated based on what planet they hail from, and what their species is, seemingly. of course for the audience, it is important that different races and ethnicities are represented, i'm just not necessarily sure i would expect the arc for a character played by a POC to play out differently than if the character was played by a white person.
    In-universe aspects have nothing to do with it. Itís not Palpatine writing the story, itís real human beings. And I feel like thereís no way in hell the ST ends the way it does if you flipped the genders or races of the main actors; I can only see Kylo Ren being so overvalued and coddled while Finn is denigrated and dismissed by the story if thereís some kind of shallow bias acting in his favor, either innocently incompetent, or the product of white male privilege and itís impact on fiction.

    Understand; I seriously doubt anyone in LFL or the STís production is malignantly racist or sexist... but I donít see the dichotomy of ďMan, Kylo Ren has to make sense as someone Rey would be attracted to right now without any more explanation and heís so damn deep and sympathetic!Ē coinciding with ďEh, I donít think Finnís opening scene-featured empathy and horror at the FOís action, return to Han after the Hosnian Systemís destruction and before Rey gets kidnapped, and transformation into a ĎBig Dealí of the Resistance really means all that much, and I donít think his electric chemistry with Rey is actually that interesting, or his backstory that fruitfulĒ...

    ...without their likely being something in the subconscious back of their mind that thinks ďWhite Dude Played By Kathleen Kennedyís Selected Actor = More ĎNatrualí Love Interest and Male Lead, so Black Dude Played By Guy Abrams Fought For Cannot = Male Lead and Possible Romantic Interest.ď

    On some level, I just donít think thereís anyway to defend the LFL approved storyline where the Neo-Nazi School Shooter, Mind Rapist, Mass Murderer and Patricide whoís really not that complicated or deep is supposedly fits the male lead co-protagonist role better, or where heís more attractive than the Escaped Slave Soldier who fought and nearly died for the main heroine.

    Itís always smelled like bullshit to me, and honestly, itís the lazy, casual presumption that the story made sense and the confused bewilderment and denial that there was anything wrong that makes me think that LFL and Johnson have some flaws that they let ruin the Sequel Trilogy and donít want to contemplate being real... because they are generally good people and great artists, and no one wants to find out they torpedoed the series and lost potentially billions because of the kind of biases and prejudices they were also trying to fight against in others.
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  6. #36
    Fantastic Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Eh, I've just come to accept that Yugioh will never treat its female characters competently.
    A big sore spot with many Japanse animes. But we are talking of Rey. Rey is a failed female character writing experiment.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    A big sore spot with many Japanse animes. But we are talking of Rey. Rey is a failed female character writing experiment.
    The funny thing is that I've been reading Mulan reviews and when movie reviewers are negatively comparing a film to TRoS, you know you screwed up. Basically, if your film is about female empowerment; don't have the source of your power be some sort of inherited/chosen one component.
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  8. #38
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    The Last Jedi just subverted the expectations of people who thought it was going to make the leap to classic Star Wars film.

    Nope!

    Looks like Rogue One is the only Disney film that is going to make it, unless Rian Johnson's trilogy is really....BWAAAA-HA-HA......happening....BWAAAA-HA-HA...I'm sure he....BWAAAA-HA-HA...is working...BWAAAA-HA-HA...really...BWAAAA-HA-HA....hard on....BWAAAA-HA-HA...it.
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  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member Derek Metaltron's Avatar
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    If Rose had been never created or at least not awkwardly paired up with Finn, what would have been more interesting - Finn and Rey getting together or Finn and Poe getting together? Or do you prefer the sequel trio to not be romantically attached?

  10. #40
    Fantastic Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    The funny thing is that I've been reading Mulan reviews and when movie reviewers are negatively comparing a film to TRoS, you know you screwed up. Basically, if your film is about female empowerment; don't have the source of your power be some sort of inherited/chosen one component.
    We hardly know what Rey was chosen for. Every other male chosen one we at least knew what they were meant to do. Harry was destined to destroy Voldermort from birth, Frodo destroy the ring, Anakin bring balance to the force, Luke defeat Vader, Neo save all reality, Batman protect Gotham/What is Rey chosen for? Killing Palpatine does not count since Anakin was chosen to do that.

    Japanese amines female characters get a lot of flack for nagging, yelling and not getting development unless when there is a male love interest, but i rather watch that over and over again than ever watch Rey again. Rey cannot hold a candle to any Sailor Scout from the Sailor Moon series.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    The Last Jedi just subverted the expectations of people who thought it was going to make the leap to classic Star Wars film.

    Nope!

    Looks like Rogue One is the only Disney film that is going to make it, unless Rian Johnson's trilogy is really....BWAAAA-HA-HA......happening....BWAAAA-HA-HA...I'm sure he....BWAAAA-HA-HA...is working...BWAAAA-HA-HA...really...BWAAAA-HA-HA....hard on....BWAAAA-HA-HA...it.
    Subverted expectation is a plot twist that Vader is Luke's dad or Anakin being the cause of Padme's death. I don't know what Rian was talking about.

  11. #41
    Fantastic Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Metaltron View Post
    If Rose had been never created or at least not awkwardly paired up with Finn, what would have been more interesting - Finn and Rey getting together or Finn and Poe getting together? Or do you prefer the sequel trio to not be romantically attached?
    Ignoring Rey and Ben.There were Poe and Rey fans and Finn and Rey fans. This is not the first time I have seen a film rearrange or rewrite what should have been. In the new star trek movies, Uhura a POC was Spock’s romantic love interest, which annoyed many of the Spock/Kirk slash Fans, a type of ship that is very female driven, they constantly showed their displeasure about Spock and Uhura being a couple, although it was not a big thing to the larger star trek universe, in the sequel the spock and uhura romance was devalued to put kirk/spock back in focus in the lamest ways, Uhura's character also got very sidelined in the third film. I can’t help but point out JJ Abrams did both movies. He sure has a good record of listening to the wrong group of ‘’fans’’ and it has come at the expense of the POC characters

  12. #42
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Metaltron View Post
    If Rose had been never created or at least not awkwardly paired up with Finn, what would have been more interesting - Finn and Rey getting together or Finn and Poe getting together? Or do you prefer the sequel trio to not be romantically attached?
    I really didn't get Rose as Finns "Jiminy Cricket" to tell Finn a person that was taken as a child and forced into service in the First Order that the goings on in Canto Bight was wrong. Or for DJ to explain to him that there was no winning in war and something about war profiteering, He had already made a choice to run from the war and was brought back because of his friendship to Rey. Finn's potential was deflated by his "side quest" and cheap shot defeat of Captain Phasma, Johnson totally misused and destroyed the potential of Finn for his fixation on Kilo Ren and deconstruction of Luke. I don't think it as he put that Disney didn't know what to do with a black character as we celebrate the life and morn the passing of Chadwick Boseman who with Disney made the Marvel's Black Panther a house hold name. I think its more that Disney/Lucas Film didn't know what to do with a Star Wars trilogy.
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  13. #43
    Fantastic Member basbash99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Metaltron View Post
    If Rose had been never created or at least not awkwardly paired up with Finn, what would have been more interesting - Finn and Rey getting together or Finn and Poe getting together? Or do you prefer the sequel trio to not be romantically attached?

    I would've been OK with Finn and Rey ultimately not getting together, but it was pretty lame that Finn never got a chance to express his feelings for her during the course of the trilogy.

    As for Finn and Poe, always saw them as bros and that people were thinking they would form a gay couple were reading into things too much.

    TBH i'm not sure whether TLJ's failure to follow up on Finn's feelings for Rey was due to Disney being nervous about a black man - white woman romance or just Johnson subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations (which is not nearly as clever as Rian seems to think it is). But no denying that Disney certainly went out of there way to quash any notion of a Finn-Poe romance by giving Finn a female romantic interest in TLJ and Poe a female romantic interest in TROS, altho in neither case did there seem to be much chemistry between the pairs.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Metaltron View Post
    If Rose had been never created or at least not awkwardly paired up with Finn, what would have been more interesting - Finn and Rey getting together or Finn and Poe getting together? Or do you prefer the sequel trio to not be romantically attached?
    Okay, I’ll confess I was a low-key shipper of Rey and Finn, but to offer some argument in favor of it beyond my simple diverse for that romance as an option...

    Since I’m a guy who also thought Rey was awesome in TFA when paired with Finn as her constant screen partner, and since I think that any love interest for Rey would be established immediately as the “romantic lead”, and since doing so would have ensured a greater chances for Rey’s story to work since Finn isn’t a Skywalker who will overshadow her and Finn becomes more clearly the Han Solo-counterpart...

    ...I genuinely think there would have been much less chance of Finn being demoted from male lead and Rey having her entire character arc screwed up for the sake of Kylo if Rey and Finn had been the main romance instead. If they could ensure those two things but skip that romance and do Finn and Poe instead, I could have rolled with it, but I liked the idea to Poe being more of a Wedge Antilles-level supporting character, rather than a main character. Still, in a story that doesn’t demote Finn or screw up Rey, I could see Finn and Poe as a romance. I just think it would be impossible to make those two key mistakes if Finn is Rey’s love interest instead of Kylo - Kylo became a genuine parasite to Rey that shoved Finn out of the scene entirely, even on a platonic level.

    As to my suppositions and speculation about whether or not racism played a part in shooting down Rey and Finn as a possible romance...

    ...To me, it feels like there had to be some focused drive at LFL to try and avoid that possibility at all costs and try to smother even a fandom attraction to the idea, though I don’t know of the twisted logic behind it was racist or simply screwed up priorities and paranoia.

    I don’t see any patience for even a platonic closeness between Rey and Finn in LFL’s eyes, or else 1) we would have seen them actually exchange dialogue in TLJ, 2) Rose would have been a lot more than seemingly just a Not-Rey love interest for Finn, and 3) Trevorrow wouldn’t have thought that the best alternative to Reylo in his film was Rey and Poe. All of that feels like a genuine attempt to kill any possibility of people seeing romance as an option between Rey and Finn after TFA, to the extent they were sacrificing the platonic, familial relationship the two characters had... but while that could be systemic racism, I could also see it simply being fanatical paranoia and devotion to protect Kylo Ren as the male lead by seeing Finn (regardless of race) as a threat for being too good of a screen companion for Rey. I mean, they were willing to trash Rey and even the OT3 to some extent for Darth Affluenza, and I don’t know if you really need something as nefarious as racism when you’re already so fanatic about denying the problems with Kylo Ren as a male lead.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilan Preskovsky View Post
    However much Star Wars fans can be genuinely awful people and however much Finn was left adrift in the second parts of the series, bringing race into it is entirely unnecessary. Obviously, no one was complaining after The Force Awakens as it was very much a three-header, which is exactly what JJ Abrams wanted it to be but what happened next wasn't some assholeish attempt to give the shaft to non-white characters - it was purely the result of a trilogy that was very, very badly planned out.

    I love The Last Jedi but clearly Johnson was trying to make a significantly different Star Wars film to Abrams - one with a more streamlined plot centring on Rey and Kylo Ren with everyone else as support to these two characters. It was the first theme-driven Star Wars movie, for better or worse, and if that meant that Finn and Rose had to have this whole side adventure that accomplished nothing narratively but plenty thematically then so be it.

    But then the fans hated Last Jedi (some for perfectly reasons, some because they're a bunch of entitled bigots) and Trevarrow didn't work out so they went back to Abrams to finish out the series in as safe a way as possible. What resulted was something clearly driven at least somewhat by studio mandate but was mostly exactly what happens when you bring back the original director of a trilogy that went off in a radically different direction with its second instalment SPECIFICALLY to course correct from what Johnson did in Last Jedi. Abrams clearly loved Finn and Poe but trying to do two films in one that also retcons much of the middle instalment meant he had to rush most of his plans, truncate others and drop others still just to do even some sort of justice to what was always the A-story of the new trilogy: Rey and Kylo.

    If there is a racial element to it, it must be pretty behind the scenes. Frankly, a company doesn't give a crap about race, one way or another. They care about money. "Diversity" casting was no doubt seen as a prudent business call at first and perhaps less so once the moronic backlash started to happen against Boyega and the others. They also clearly thought that hey, it's Star Wars, those films just print money. Even the mostly hated prequels made a hilarious amount of money so they can just sit back and let the filmmakers do whatever the hell they want to do without any need for internal consistency between creators or a specific plan for where the series was going. This somewhat blew up in their faces - though lets be honest, only somewhat. These movies still made crazy amounts of money and were generally much better reviewed than the Prequels (and, I'm sorry, but rightly so).

    Look, BLM is obviously an important cause but is it just me or does bogging down real racial injustice and police brutality in an actor not being happy with the way a gigantic corporation didn't do justice to the character that he played, hurt the cause far more than it helps it? Boyega may be a petulant child or he might be a brave activist fighting for what he sees as the truth (and, make no mistake, I do believe he's the latter) but it doesn't matter. This sort of nonsense only gives more ammunition to those who insist that BLM is basically bullshit and is just about black people whining about their past victimhood. Sorry John, I think your intentions are noble, but making this whole thing a racial matter can only really backfire on you and possibly the whole BLM movement, while losing the message on the real reasons why the new trilogy struggled creatively.

    I'm not American but damnit American liberals, would you please cut this politically correct hogwash, wake up, and work on actually winning the real battles than need to be fought and won here. Learn to pick your bloody battles and stop trying to equate the murder of a black citizen by the police with highly paid, famous and largely loved black actors not being nominated in this year's supporting actor category or something. You just end up looking frivolous and stupid as a result and it's really difficult to sit on the sidelines here and watch you lot make the same mistakes over and over again.

    Thus endeth my rant. Pretentiously.
    There absolutely were complaints about TFA after it came out. And Boyega wasn't the one who brought race into this. The people calling for a boycott of the film because of a black stormtrooper and harassing an Asian-American actress did that.

    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    I call BS on that, it was telegraphed hard in Force Awakens. They literally hit you on the head with a 4x4 with that idea when they had him give that speech before he killed his father.
    How did you watch a scene where the guy kills his dad and then come away with the idea they were always going to redeem him?
    Last edited by Agent Z; 09-04-2020 at 09:59 PM.

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