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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I have to disagree, allready TFA dropped the ball when it came to Finn.

    This character made no sense. He was supposed to be raised trained like a Clone Trooper, but that was nowhere reflected in how he acted or in what he was capable of. He got apparently traumatized when they wiped out the village but had no problem when Stormtroopers (= guys who were like him abducted and brainwashed as kids, and that he grew up with) were killed.

    Lead characters in Star Wars are typically guys Jedis, Smugglers, X-Pilots, Bontyhunters or similarly extraordinary characters, Finn like he was done in TFA was simply not lead character material. For that he would have had imo to be way more capable, a clearer motivation for leaving the First Order and more agency then just running from the first order and after Rey.
    Finn *is* an extraordinary character: he’s an Everyman slave soldier who broke his programming upon witnessing an atrocity his humanity and willpower was too strong to participate in, became the kind of desperate deserter that would lead to, then evolved into a genuine hero when exposed to more atrocities. Yeah, he was willing to shoot and kill stormtroopers on his escape and when he chose to stand against the FO... but what else is he supposed to do?

    And I’m not talking about the fictional conventions here where non-named people dying dense count, the thing that LFL abused to excuse Kylo Ren as sympathetic when he wasn’t, I mean what the hell else is Finn the person supposed to do when confronted by obedient slave soldiers who haven’t broken free as he has?

    Sit around waiting to be killed with the rest of the Galaxy, like Johnson’s cowardly self-centered Luke in TLJ? Keep his head down and follow orders, as other Stormtroopers have likely done before? I mean, if a drafted Wehrmacht soldier in WWII is attached to an SS command, and desires when the SS orders a war crime, and in his escape is confronted by other drafted soldiers trying to kill him, what is he supposed to do if he can’t fight them?

    And because Finn chooses that no matter what, he won’t kill for the First Order, he frees Poe, helps get BB-8 to the Resistance and gets Rey involved in the conflict while they save each others’ lives, briefs the Resjstance in SKB, and exposes its oscillating weakness and improvises a plan to take down its shields, before holding Kylo Ren off long enough for Rey to recover from being one-shotted into a tree and knocked out, even wounding Kylo and contributing to his physical defeat. He basically does everything that Luke, Han, and Chewie do on the Death Star, but also has the information R2 has and crosses blades with his story’s equivalent of Darth Vader and helps beat him.

    And it’s hard to get a more clear motivation than “My ass ain’t committing war crimes like wiping out a village” being followed up by “They just blew up a solar system... yeah, they need to be stopped, even if they’re terrifying.” Please note: it was the Hosnian System’s destruction that pulled him back to Han and away from his escape, not Rey’s kidnapping - that came later.

    There *are* issues with TFA’s story for Finn - some of the humor, like the trough scene, needed to be compensated for with a physical victory over someone somewhere beyond shooting Stormies and being part of a winning team effort, and if Abrams had exploited the slave soldier aspect more in TFA, Johnson couldn’t have passed it up as he did.

    But if you think Finn was already a dropped ball character, than I don’t think any defense can be mounted for Kylo or Rey in TFA or TLJ, or even Luke in TLJ, because that film is simply worse overall. I mean, Finn is clearly a better character than Kylo because he actually has some development, humanity, and motivation, and Finn’s actions do end up having a more substantial impact than Luke’s in TLJ.

    Please don’t tell me you think that TLJ or other ST characters are worth defending if Finn isn’t.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    “Rey should be a Skywalker, Finn’s her love interest in a Stormtrooper revolt, and Kylo’s the punk trying to drag them down to his level.”
    Now that's a story I would have loved. Too bad that we got what we got instead of the above all for a cheap Emperor Palpatine/Sith nostalgia pop (following misguided fan backlash after the previous film).
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Finn *is* an extraordinary character
    But not in a "I want to be like this guy" sort of way.
    And the "The Clone Wars" TV-show did imo a far better job with the "child slave soldier" thing and the clones.

    And I'm not saying that Rey and Kylo were really good characters or had better motivations (having Rey's main goal to be staying at Jakuu and waiting for her family is also pretty much opposed to everything she does in the movie) but they at least resemble something like typical Star Wars heroes or villains.

    And maybe a better second movie could have made Finn (and pretty all the other new characters) become a decent Star Wars character, but TFA imo allready a pretty bad starting point.

  4. #64
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Disney is in a no win position with the Finn character now. You could say that the character has become too toxic for any medium. Disney really can't do anything with the character, but can't cut their losses and kill him because that would bring on another public relations nightmare. They can't recast because....who would want to step into that nightmare?
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    But not in a "I want to be like this guy" sort of way.
    And the "The Clone Wars" TV-show did imo a far better job with the "child slave soldier" thing and the clones.

    And I'm not saying that Rey and Kylo were really good characters or had better motivations (having Rey's main goal to be staying at Jakuu and waiting for her family is also pretty much opposed to everything she does in the movie) but they at least resemble something like typical Star Wars heroes or villains.

    And maybe a better second movie could have made Finn (and pretty all the other new characters) become a decent Star Wars character, but TFA imo allready a pretty bad starting point.
    My counter would be that there *are* actually people who had a “I want to be like this guy” reaction to Finn; his strength of character and willpower in breaking free of the FO and refusing to be a monster is an inspiring message, and he works very well as an example of proving that doing something to combat evil is better than nothing. Hell, that’s the advantage of the “Everyman” character archetype.

    I *do* understand how the “ideal” and “paragon” type characters can be more attractive in certain ways - that’s one of the sacrifices the Everyman character makes for its own style of characterization... but it’s not like Rey actually got anything herself from ending up as an off-brand Skywalker clone, and Kylo pretty much only coasts on being a lamer repetition of earlier, better characters.

    Plus, since this is Boyega’s character we’re talking about... having a black male lead alone is something that really shouldn’t have been discarded.

    I’d also add that I don’t think that Luke and Han are all that impressive as characters in ANH itself, and really only become what we love in ESB - Luke’s a fairy prosaic if well acted farmboy hero before ESB makes him the more operatic figure we know, while Han’s more a fool lucky to have some martial virtues than the genuinely cunning scoundrel and charmer ESB made him. Finn’s more impressive to me in TFA in terms of depth and efficacy than Han and Luke in ANH are; it’s in matching their evolutions into genuinely com0ex character sin the next film where he comes up short.

    So hell yeah, he needed a better second film, but not because he’s automatically less interesting than a braggart smuggler, an archetypal hero, or, say, a nine-year old kid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Disney is in a no win position with the Finn character now. You could say that the character has become too toxic for any medium. Disney really can't do anything with the character, but can't cut their losses and kill him because that would bring on another public relations nightmare. They can't recast because....who would want to step into that nightmare?
    Toxic? Compared to who? Kylo “Patron Saint of White Male Privileg” Ren?

    No, you *could* do something with the character in literature and comics; there’s still the potential for a pseudo-Spartacus or Harriet Tubman Stormtrooper revolt among any surviving First Order war bands in the Galaxy, and Jedi Finn is clearly an idea that Abrams wanted to push, even if it looks like executives above him wanted to cancel or push past it.

    Hell, Rey’s even single now...

    You could totally use the character in a more intelligent way in expanded material to try and collect the cash his fans have in the same way that Kylo fans have had their cash collected. You may not be able to totally exploit either character anymore because they’ve both been botched, but what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, and if Kylo’s fans were willing to be “prosumers” a bit to show their support for him, Finn fans would be the same.

    I know *I* would buy a Finn book if I heard that someone like Claudia Gray or Christopher Priest (yes, I know he doesn’t like being “stuck” with black characters, but I’m spitballing here) was tackling him with ambition.

    Recasting’s dead, yes... but it’s not like any of the other actors want to make a comeback in their roles right now anyway. Hell Driver never seemed that invested in the character he was playing even as LFL prostrated the franchise before him.

    I’d say stick it to the haters - knowing they’re going to keep paying for the their weepy mass murdering white boy - and try and make what amends - and money - you can.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 09-07-2020 at 09:18 AM.
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  6. #66
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    The Star Wars LEGO Holiday special is coming in November. We’ll see how Finn is treated there.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Disney is in a no win position with the Finn character now. You could say that the character has become too toxic for any medium. Disney really can't do anything with the character, but can't cut their losses and kill him because that would bring on another public relations nightmare. They can't recast because....who would want to step into that nightmare?
    The nightmare was started by toxic fans that later spread into Disney itself.

    That is being made worst by TOXIC fans claiming BLACK folks were that concerned about Finn. Lets just say Black Twitter fired back-because black folks were complaining the MOMENT spoilers came out. Including kids being upset at how he was done in the film and guess what those kids didn't go back for the last two movies.

    In terms of comics-you know how many Finn centric books there are? 2 (maybe 3) ISSUES.

    2 (one by IDW and one by Marvel) dealt with Finn protecting animals. That is it. With Tom Taylor pretty much ENFORCING Finn was a janitor not someone who was in the top of his classes like the novels did.

    In terms of comics you got a HUGE blank slate to explore where Finn came from.

    This isn't Ray Fisher-because everyone saw this mess with Finn and saw it marginalized once Rose got attacked.

    How do you toss away someone whose story could get you another 3 movies? Hew could go looking for his family or try to free other storm troopers still out there.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    The nightmare was started by toxic fans that later spread into Disney itself.

    That is being made worst by TOXIC fans claiming BLACK folks were that concerned about Finn. Lets just say Black Twitter fired back-because black folks were complaining the MOMENT spoilers came out. Including kids being upset at how he was done in the film and guess what those kids didn't go back for the last two movies.

    In terms of comics-you know how many Finn centric books there are? 2 (maybe 3) ISSUES.

    2 (one by IDW and one by Marvel) dealt with Finn protecting animals. That is it. With Tom Taylor pretty much ENFORCING Finn was a janitor not someone who was in the top of his classes like the novels did.

    In terms of comics you got a HUGE blank slate to explore where Finn came from.

    This isn't Ray Fisher-because everyone saw this mess with Finn and saw it marginalized once Rose got attacked.

    How do you toss away someone whose story could get you another 3 movies? Hew could go looking for his family or try to free other storm troopers still out there.
    The biggest difference between Boyega and Fisher is that Boyega can unabashedly point to TFA as a film that at no point cut down on his lead role before production, which is why Fisher says his own performance and reception was muted, and that TFA than murdered the box office.

    Again - I’m not denying that Star Wars returning with the OT3 after over a decade of absence played the most significant role in it shattering record sin the first weeks.

    ...But I am arguing that Boyega and Ridley were great enough co-stars in the film to spread word of mouth like The Phantom Menace wished it could have, and provided the kind of solid, unequivocally successful emotional core to provide the film’s monster legs.

    And I am arguing that in spite of Kylo Ren’s more immediately marketable concept, and Mark Hamill’s excellent performance... neither wound up being as much of an asset to the ST and Rey’s character as Finn.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I’d also add that I don’t think that Luke and Han are all that impressive as characters in ANH itself, and really only become what we love in ESB - Luke’s a fairy prosaic if well acted farmboy hero before ESB makes him the more operatic figure we know, while Han’s more a fool lucky to have some martial virtues than the genuinely cunning scoundrel and charmer ESB made him. Finn’s more impressive to me in TFA in terms of depth and efficacy than Han and Luke in ANH are; it’s in matching their evolutions into genuinely com0ex character sin the next film where he comes up short.
    But Luke is in the end of the day still the main protagonist and the "chosen one" in ANH, while Finn is just playing second fiddle to Rey.
    And Han is just a cool guy, even in TFA he was probably the best part of the movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I *do* understand how the “ideal” and “paragon” type characters can be more attractive in certain ways - that’s one of the sacrifices the Everyman character makes for its own style of characterization
    There are a lot of beloved Star wars Charcters that are not “ideal” or “paragon” (all the Bounty Hunters, the Wraith Squadron Members, Ventress ...) but all of them are still pretty exceptional, an Everyman Character is imo just not a good fit for an space adventure fantasy series like Star Wars.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Plus, since this is Boyega’s character we’re talking about... having a black male lead alone is something that really shouldn’t have been discarded.
    If you want Boyega as male lead watch Attack the Block, that movie way better then the sequels.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    But Luke is in the end of the day still the main protagonist and the "chosen one" in ANH, while Finn is just playing second fiddle to Rey.
    And Han is just a cool guy, even in TFA he was probably the best part of the movie.

    There are a lot of beloved Star wars Charcters that are not “ideal” or “paragon” (all the Bounty Hunters, the Wraith Squadron Members, Ventress ...) but all of them are still pretty exceptional, an Everyman Character is imo just not a good fit for an space adventure fantasy series like Star Wars.

    If you want Boyega as male lead watch Attack the Block, that movie way better then the sequels.
    And I really don’t see that much difference between Luke and Han in ANH in terms of their appeal - all three are a bit larger than life, even when Finn is an Everyman character; heck, Luke is basically an Everyman character who just gets explicitly supernatural powers, and Han’s “cool dude” persona is just that, a persona, and actually not who he is yet, since that’s more when we see what he can actually do in ESB. Heck, Finn’s false bravado and charm being upended by genuine emotional attachment to Rey is pretty much exactly what Han has in ANH - the character of Finn doesn’t undermine Boyega’s own coolness, and that rubs off on the character.

    And I feel certain that Kylo Ren’s limited appeal in spite of having all sorts of advantages shows that not being an Everyman doesn’t guarantee you’re going to work either - there’s a reason Disney insists on TFA Kylo for their theme park, and why that supposedly less expansive version is still the more successful look and merchandise for him.

    Kylo is just a measurably of less quality as a male lead and co-star for Rey than Finn is... and I’d have to argue that TLJ Like is as well, if for no other reason than the type of Luke there is diametrically opposed to the escapist aspect of Star Wars.

    An Everyman may not be a natural fit for a space opera... but he fits a hell of a lot better, particularly as a deuteragonist to the main heroine, than a whiny, murdeorus man-child hammered into the male lead role at the heroine’s expense or an “award bait man pain” story predicated on the dramatic “value” of making the most disappointing and deflating story you can for a returning hero.

    There was simply more potential for a better ST with Finn as male lead than there was with Kylo, and even with Luke if Johnson was dead-set on such a divisive and dubious creative philosophy for him.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Finn *is* an extraordinary character: he’s an Everyman slave soldier who broke his programming upon witnessing an atrocity his humanity and willpower was too strong to participate in, became the kind of desperate deserter that would lead to, then evolved into a genuine hero when exposed to more atrocities. Yeah, he was willing to shoot and kill stormtroopers on his escape and when he chose to stand against the FO... but what else is he supposed to do?

    And I’m not talking about the fictional conventions here where non-named people dying dense count, the thing that LFL abused to excuse Kylo Ren as sympathetic when he wasn’t, I mean what the hell else is Finn the person supposed to do when confronted by obedient slave soldiers who haven’t broken free as he has?

    Sit around waiting to be killed with the rest of the Galaxy, like Johnson’s cowardly self-centered Luke in TLJ? Keep his head down and follow orders, as other Stormtroopers have likely done before? I mean, if a drafted Wehrmacht soldier in WWII is attached to an SS command, and desires when the SS orders a war crime, and in his escape is confronted by other drafted soldiers trying to kill him, what is he supposed to do if he can’t fight them?

    And because Finn chooses that no matter what, he won’t kill for the First Order, he frees Poe, helps get BB-8 to the Resistance and gets Rey involved in the conflict while they save each others’ lives, briefs the Resjstance in SKB, and exposes its oscillating weakness and improvises a plan to take down its shields, before holding Kylo Ren off long enough for Rey to recover from being one-shotted into a tree and knocked out, even wounding Kylo and contributing to his physical defeat. He basically does everything that Luke, Han, and Chewie do on the Death Star, but also has the information R2 has and crosses blades with his story’s equivalent of Darth Vader and helps beat him.

    And it’s hard to get a more clear motivation than “My ass ain’t committing war crimes like wiping out a village” being followed up by “They just blew up a solar system... yeah, they need to be stopped, even if they’re terrifying.” Please note: it was the Hosnian System’s destruction that pulled him back to Han and away from his escape, not Rey’s kidnapping - that came later.

    There *are* issues with TFA’s story for Finn - some of the humor, like the trough scene, needed to be compensated for with a physical victory over someone somewhere beyond shooting Stormies and being part of a winning team effort, and if Abrams had exploited the slave soldier aspect more in TFA, Johnson couldn’t have passed it up as he did.

    But if you think Finn was already a dropped ball character, than I don’t think any defense can be mounted for Kylo or Rey in TFA or TLJ, or even Luke in TLJ, because that film is simply worse overall. I mean, Finn is clearly a better character than Kylo because he actually has some development, humanity, and motivation, and Finn’s actions do end up having a more substantial impact than Luke’s in TLJ.

    Please don’t tell me you think that TLJ or other ST characters are worth defending if Finn isn’t.

    I think one of the YA stories released around the time stated that the Stormtrooper who gets shot and wipes his blood on his helmet was was Finn's best friend or was raised with him (Noticeably it's after this that Finn first starts to freeze). Yeah, I know it's not really in the movie....

    Rise also seemed to imply I think that the force helped him and the Stormtroopers on Kef Bir break free of their conditioning as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    An Everyman may not be a natural fit for a space opera... but he fits a hell of a lot better, particularly as a deuteragonist to the main heroine, than a whiny, murdeorus man-child hammered into the male lead role at the heroine’s expense or an “award bait man pain” story predicated on the dramatic “value” of making the most disappointing and deflating story you can for a returning hero.
    Kylo is also not a good lead (or villain), without changes to the how the characters were written Poe would have been the best option imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Kylo is also not a good lead (or villain), without changes to the how the characters were written Poe would have been the best option imo.
    Poe? In terms of being the male lead to Rey? I don’t think so, no matter whether you use the more Wedge Antilles-esque professional from TFA or the Han Solo knock-off from the latter two movies, especially for Rey. I feel like the only reason people think he could work is because they just want him to be Han to Rey, and frankly, I don’t see any benefit to that for her or the story, and there *is* an element of “Well, he’s the more traditionally macho character but also not black, so of course he makes more sense than Finn!” going on there from some people who think he would work better than Finn or Kylo.

    I’m inclined to think from Boyega’s testimony and other confirmed bits and pieces of Abrams’s original plan for TROS that Finn was supposed to eventually become a Jedi and a commando... in other words, a Kyle Katarn type of character. And I’ll be honest, you can still see the rough outline of that idea in what came out of TROS, albeit obscured and almost removed by what sounds like LFL ordering Finn’s profile lowered.

    I mean, why the hell haven’t LFL released anything to do with Finn and the Force if TROS and it’s material confirm he has it? I feel like it’s probably the same reason why they haven’t released anything for Rey, but did release something for Kylo - he’s the safe conventional character they want.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    The nightmare was started by toxic fans that later spread into Disney itself.
    Nah, this one is on Disney and Disney alone. The toxic fans didn't have a legion of kids thinking that he would be a Jedi and then have the rug pulled out from under them in the first movie. Didn't send him on a quest that is the worst part of the second movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    That is being made worst by TOXIC fans claiming BLACK folks were that concerned about Finn. Lets just say Black Twitter fired back-because black folks were complaining the MOMENT spoilers came out. Including kids being upset at how he was done in the film and guess what those kids didn't go back for the last two movies.
    So what you are saying is it was that time of day that the broken clock was right? Make no mistake, it was concern trolling but they were right. You admit as much yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    In terms of comics-you know how many Finn centric books there are? 2 (maybe 3) ISSUES.

    2 (one by IDW and one by Marvel) dealt with Finn protecting animals. That is it. With Tom Taylor pretty much ENFORCING Finn was a janitor not someone who was in the top of his classes like the novels did.
    That is disappointing. I just don't get the thought process behind making him a janitor. Was it because Disney didn't want to see a hero with a dark past? But then they turn around and make Poe a spice smuggler?!

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    In terms of comics you got a HUGE blank slate to explore where Finn came from.

    This isn't Ray Fisher-because everyone saw this mess with Finn and saw it marginalized once Rose got attacked.

    How do you toss away someone whose story could get you another 3 movies? Hew could go looking for his family or try to free other storm troopers still out there.
    The thing about Disney is that they never admit to making a mistake. They screwed up Finn big time. Now we are all watching and they aren't going to want to do anything while we are watching.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Nah, this one is on Disney and Disney alone. The toxic fans didn't have a legion of kids thinking that he would be a Jedi and then have the rug pulled out from under them in the first movie. Didn't send him on a quest that is the worst part of the second movie.



    So what you are saying is it was that time of day that the broken clock was right? Make no mistake, it was concern trolling but they were right. You admit as much yourself.



    That is disappointing. I just don't get the thought process behind making him a janitor. Was it because Disney didn't want to see a hero with a dark past? But then they turn around and make Poe a spice smuggler?!



    The thing about Disney is that they never admit to making a mistake. They screwed up Finn big time. Now we are all watching and they aren't going to want to do anything while we are watching.
    I’m mostly with you on this...

    ...But I think that LFL played a more active role in sandbagging Finn than Disney proper. LFL’s story group was the one in charge of helping to forge the comic and literature expansions... and that’s where they really seem to be going out of their way to push Ben as the Second Coming and downplay and relegate Finn to a space janitor, and it was LFL more than Disney that handled the BTS reshoot elements of previous Disney Era films.

    I have an easier time seeing Kathleen Kennedy being gaga over Adam Driver (which isn’t bad in and of itself) alongside a story group headed by a TFA-despising Pablo Hidalgo (who’s overall a cool guy) simply seeing Finn as some useless creation of Abrams’s “illegally settled” on the story role they think belongs to Kylo/Ben, and just enforcing an apathy and downgrading of Finn to “protect” Kylo than I can see a Disney head coming in and potentially cutting down on a black character’s major action set-piece (since a lot of Boyega and even John Williams’s interviews imply) when action set pieces = money.

    I mean, all signs point to LFL being behind repeatedly trying to find a new Big Bad not named Kylo on whom Ben could perform a heroic sacrifice on well before Disney forced them to go back to Abrams and Bad Robot, and they stood buy and nodded happily in approval while Johnson dismisses Finn from his rule and made sure Rey was stuck in an abusive relationship with Kylo.
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    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

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