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  1. #76
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    With the recent revelations of Daisy talking about behind the scenes decisions, I’d say everything was in flux, at least on JJ’s end until the last moment.

    It seems nothing was set in stone and everything kept changing.

  2. #77
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    In terms of comics you got a HUGE blank slate to explore where Finn came from.
    Its not really that huge, he was taken as a child trained as a storm trooper, worked in sanitation, and ran out after his first combat mission. Really not much there. But that is not a bad thing Luke really had no huge back story either. Even with the revelation that Vader was his father Luke's story is still pretty bland up to the point when he left with Obi Wan. I think The Force Awakens sent Finn up nicely. The biggest disservice to Finn was The Last Jedi. One; was the timeline being immediately after The Force Awakens. Unlike every other Star Wars movie that allowed for off screen development of the characters between installments (that could later be used as the subject of comics, novels, video games and so on). TLJ bucked the norm and the biggest victim was Finn who's character was ripe for such off screen development. Two; being Finn's story line its self. It was odd seeing him do the same thing he was doing in the last movie more or less, just replace Rey with the Resistance and add moral lessons such as using children as slave labor is bad (Which I found strange for a former child slave to need to learn). The Rise of Skywalker I think did what it could with what it had combined with "company" involvement be it LFL or Disney itself. Here I think that Finn is more or less a subject of J.J "Mystery Box" approach of film making which may not have been the best for the character in the film but does leave a "HUGE blank slate to explore" of not where Finn come from but where he is going. At the end of the movie I really didn't care where Rey "Skywalker" was going as she became a very boring character by the end of the trilogy. Poe was never really fleshed out even when they tried to "spice" up his back story late in the story. Finn is the most interesting of the 3 by the end of the trilogy.
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  3. #78
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    See this sort of stuff is what happens when you have no overall plan for your story (according to both John and Daisy in recent interviews). There is a lesson here for aspiring authors and/or directors or creatives of any type.
    Last edited by Celgress; 09-10-2020 at 01:18 PM.
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  4. #79
    Astonishing Member Exciter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    With the recent revelations of Daisy talking about behind the scenes decisions, I’d say everything was in flux, at least on JJ’s end until the last moment.

    It seems nothing was set in stone and everything kept changing.
    That a franchise as big and important as Star Wars did not at least have an overall plan for the sequel trilogy before it was made is one of the biggest pop culture sins imaginable. I almost can’t comprehend the all-around incompetence that must have been involved to permit such a thing to happen.

    The new actors involved all had potential, but the plot and characters should have been completely different.
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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    See this sort of stuff is what happens when you have no overall plan for your story (according to both John and Daisy in recent interviews). There is a lesson here for aspiring authors and/or directors or creatives of any type.
    From what I've read Abrams had it all sort of mapped out but LFL gave Johnson carte blanche and he threw it all out. When Abrams agreed to finish it it was so far off the rails that he couldn't go with his original idea and he didn't have complete control of the rains when it came to story. And I have no Idea why they hired Chris Terrio as a screen writer other than after Justice League he may be seen as a company yes man.
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  6. #81
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    From what I've read Abrams had it all sort of mapped out but LFL gave Johnson carte blanche and he threw it all out. When Abrams agreed to finish it it was so far off the rails that he couldn't go with his original idea and he didn't have complete control of the rains when it came to story. And I have no Idea why they hired Chris Terrio as a screen writer other than after Justice League he may be seen as a company yes man.
    A clear case of "Editorial Inference" if I ever saw one, how maddening.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    From what I've read Abrams had it all sort of mapped out but LFL gave Johnson carte blanche and he threw it all out. When Abrams agreed to finish it it was so far off the rails that he couldn't go with his original idea and he didn't have complete control of the rains when it came to story. And I have no Idea why they hired Chris Terrio as a screen writer other than after Justice League he may be seen as a company yes man.
    I think Terrio is “supplemental writer” rather than a “scaffolding writer” - he doesn’t come up with the plot, he’s a dialogue and detail guy... which makes him a horrible mix for any kind of rushed production or motley storytelling chaos. He’s not the guy who made Argo’s story - it was history that Affleck wanted to adapt, with Terrio being a component in that script’s construction, not its architect.

    That means he’s not really a determining asset... but neither is he at fault for the checkered parts of his resumé... particularly not in chaotic situation with studios getting involved with bloated stories or trick plot situations.

    Boyega probably doesn’t even consider Terrio a factor - his eyes are on the struggle between Abrams, LFL and the consequences of Rian Johnson’s story in TLJ.
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  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exciter View Post
    That a franchise as big and important as Star Wars did not at least have an overall plan for the sequel trilogy before it was made is one of the biggest pop culture sins imaginable. I almost can’t comprehend the all-around incompetence that must have been involved to permit such a thing to happen
    Same. It truly amazes me. The made the remake of a new hope not knowing exactly where they were going with that.

    It really says all you need to know about how little a fck they give about writing a good story.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    Same. It truly amazes me. The made the remake of a new hope not knowing exactly where they were going with that.

    It really says all you need to know about how little a fck they give about writing a good story.
    I think the biggest difference between the originals, prequels and the Disney Trilogy is George Lucas. Disney didn't have a "the buck stops here' person Kennedy just threw the kids in the sand box and said do what ever you want. The "tag your in" story telling was the worst idea in movie franchise history.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    I think the biggest difference between the originals, prequels and the Disney Trilogy is George Lucas. Disney didn't have a "the buck stops here' person Kennedy just threw the kids in the sand box and said do what ever you want. The "tag your in" story telling was the worst idea in movie franchise history.
    There is, in theory, an advantage to changing up directors - logistically it works better for a short schedule without a single master director, and it *can* lead to a special blend of different directorial skills. But even though Lucas was improvising the overall OT story, him being the single visionary storyteller allowed him to focus on the strengths of his stories.

    With the ST and Boyega’s role in particular, you can see where the lack of a single storyteller upended and wasted what success TFA did have. It seems pretty clear that LFL never bought in on Boyega’s Finn as the male lead, or on Driver’s Kylo being limited on the protagonist role even if he had potential as a villain... which translated to being shocked at Finn being successful, and ostensibly ordering Johnson to increase his story in TLJ, but still not recognize Finn’s true potential or Kylo inadequacies, or the way mixing up those character roles without adjusting properly screwed over even more of the story than just them.

    I mean, basically, all Kylo has over Finn as characters is he has an easier marketing pitch for the main role in a Star Wars role, and an actor a few steps ahead in terms of career recognition... and facing fewer struggles coming from his race. Literally every other category of character development, originality, and in actually displaying the actor’s skill and range, Finn was the superior character - Boyega delivered a meatier performance in TFA not because he was a better actor than Driver in TLJ and TROS, but because the Finn role was better written in one film to exploit Boyega’s skill than Abrams and especially Johnson really managed with Kylo in all three.

    ...And yet, Kylo wound up being the person and character LFL lavished all their attention on, and a Driver the only actor they seemed to have actually given a damn about. Seriously, even Ridley seems neglected and taken for granted in comparison to Driver, and she’s the main star!
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    I think the biggest difference between the originals, prequels and the Disney Trilogy is George Lucas. Disney didn't have a "the buck stops here' person Kennedy just threw the kids in the sand box and said do what ever you want. The "tag your in" story telling was the worst idea in movie franchise history.
    It sure was, or at least one of the worst. The only thing I can think of being even worse is what happened with individual films such as Alien 3 which went through multiple writers and directors (each with their own very different vision) throughout its tortured production.
    Last edited by Celgress; 09-15-2020 at 02:41 PM.
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    It sure was, or at least one of the worst. The only thing I can think of being even worst is what happened with individual films such as Alien 3 which went through multiple writers and directors (each with their own very different vision) throughout its tortured production.
    And if I had a choice to watch Alien 3 or The Last Jedi I would go with Alien 3 and I'm not that big of an Alien fan.
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  13. #88
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    And if I had a choice to watch Alien 3 or The Last Jedi I would go with Alien 3 and I'm not that big of an Alien fan.
    Hahaha, touché
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  14. #89
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    So, the bottomline is, has Disney learned from this? Guess what we can have large, sweeping sci-fi fantasy with a black male lead. If the writing is solid it can happen. Even when accounting for the amount of racism in fandom and America there are still more people who just want a well written story. Something tells me things are going to go right back to status quo and Disney will continue with trying to give traditional Hollywood stuff and bend every story into love story between two white folk no matter what genre.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    So, the bottomline is, has Disney learned from this? Guess what we can have large, sweeping sci-fi fantasy with a black male lead. If the writing is solid it can happen. Even when accounting for the amount of racism in fandom and America there are still more people who just want a well written story. Something tells me things are going to go right back to status quo and Disney will continue with trying to give traditional Hollywood stuff and bend every story into love story between two white folk no matter what genre.

    Well the thing with something as big as Star Wars and we see in others stuff.

    Because of the name-it's EXPECTED to make money.

    So you can try to get away with the stuff we saw not just in Star Wars but Transformers and even in comics.

    As long as you are pandering to a certain demo.

    As long as the lead is a white male a lot of stuff gets overlooked or tolerated.

    In comics-

    As MUCH complaining about Nightwing over Ric Grayson I heard-sales never got that bad.

    Black Panther-marvel went gimmick hunting to keep that mess afloat.

    G5-the MOMENT rumor of a POC being Batman-it was BRUCE WAYNE is Batman PERIOD. 4 other white guys have been Batman to very little complaints.

    Take John and Driver and switch roles. Do we even hear these complaints? In fact does Driver as Finn get expanded the way folks hoped Finn would have?

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