Why Does DC Hate Alan Scott?

[HAN9000]

Who says what is the right way? Who says what is the wrong way? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's wrong. That "toxic waste dump" was one of DC's top sellers the entire time it was coming out. Obviously some people liked it.

Sadly it was not. It was an event and got pushed heavily. Yet the sales sunk quickly after issue 3.

[ComixMaven]

"Has Alan Scott had his appearance or personality changed? No."

Wrong - YES. He's been up and down the age-alator several times, first naturally (aging normally - for Earth-2), then magically (Ragnarok made him young again, coming back made him fifty-something, the Starheart made him twenty-something and messed with his personality into the bargain, then he aged up again, and he's been all over the place ever since).

Has he gone insane? Yes, more than once. There was the time (Green Lantern vol. 2 #61) that he really lost it and ordered his power ring to eliminate all evil on Earth - which meant stranding all the people on Earth, including himself, in limbo until Hal found out about it and bailed him and them out. There was the time the Psycho-Pirate got to him and had him go on a destructive rampage (Infinity Inc. #9). That's about all I can think of, though.

The JSA has had their lineup changed in timeline reboots: members added, subtracted, and (in the case of Black Canary) divided. We're no longer sure who was a member when, until DC gets around to telling us (if they do).

[Noodle]

Sadly it was not. It was an event and got pushed heavily. Yet the sales sunk quickly after issue 3.

Sales dropped, but even at it's end it was still selling better than the majority of the other DC books.

I wasn't a fan of it either. But that doesn't mean it was bad or that others didn't enjoy it. It just means I didn't.

[HAN9000]

Sales dropped, but even at it's end it was still selling better than the majority of the other DC books.

I wasn't a fan of it either. But that doesn't mean it was bad or that others didn't enjoy it. It just means I didn't.

Well, like I said, it was an event. If you compare it with other event books, HIC really isn't a big seller.

[ComixMaven]

Why does Alan Scott get to stay 100% beholden to his original origin story when almost every other super hero has had theirs revamped?

Because no one has ever changed it, no matter how many times it was retold. Bridge; train; test run; sabotage causing train wreck; magic lantern saves only Alan. That's the nub of it, even now.

Just two issues later (All-American #18), he met Irene Miller, and was firmly established as not just straight, but a bit of a horndog. (He hardly knows Irene, and already he's making a pass at her at the end of the story!)

You never did answer me about the Golden Age Green Lantern Archives - or any Golden Age Green Lantern stories. So I have no reason to think you know what you're talking about.

[ComixMaven]

Originally Posted by Noodle
Gay people can still have kids. Alan Scott being gay does not mean Obsidian and Jade do not exist.

Originally Posted by Holt
It's insane how many heads this is flying over.

True...but when a character has been 102% straight in the shade for 80 years and never a shadow of a doubt about it, it's awfully wrenching (and HORRIBLY BAD writing) to be told "Ha ha, now he's gay and always has been gay, so suck it, you fools!"

[The no face guy]

With the exception of his aging which is open to debate, none of the above are permanent changes. Green Lantern 61 was released in 1968, I somehow doubt you were reading the issue when it came out.

The JSA has not undergone what the Legion has. I would say the JSA under Geoff Johns is the gold standard on how to modernize a team.

When they kill Alan Scott off, or radically change his appearance, than I'll complain.

Having his history retconned to change his sexuality is a non issue with me, but if it's so important for some to have it restored, than hold your breath, they may just do that.

I just don't think it's worth 5 pages of argument in the 21st century.

[ComixMaven]

Green Lantern 61 was released in 1968, I somehow doubt you were reading the issue when it came out.

Bzzzt - WRONG!

The JSA has not undergone what the Legion has.

True enough. They've been even more the red-headed stepchildren of DC than the JSA have, and with far less reason (except getting too closely tied to the Super-office and suffering mightily from capricious changes issuing from it).

I would say the JSA under Geoff Johns is the gold standard on how to modernize a team.

Probably true. But note that Johns didn't touch anyone's sexual orientation except maybe Madam Fatal's (and that was an in-passing mention only).

[HAN9000]

Why did they make Alan Scott gay? Simple. It’s a changing world. The higher ups at DC took a look at their roster of heroes and came to the conclusion that it was looking very White, Male and straight, at least in comparison to Marvel. What did they do to “solve” this problem you ask? Well they turned to their diversity franchise (Green Lantern) and decided to change a few things. Green Lantern is always the go to for more diversity (John, Kyle, Jessica, Simon, now Alan) if you haven’t noticed.

However they didn’t want to make Hal gay (Geoff would never have that), they wanted to kill John off so making him gay was a no go, Guy is probably the most hated Green Lantern (don’t want to make your big LGBT hero the most hated) and Jessica/Simon didn’t exist yet. That only leaves two choices, Kyle and Alan. Guess they figured there’s more story potential to tell with Alan being closeted in the old days than Kyle being out and proud in the modern age. So they made Alan gay and got their headlines “DC has LGBT Green Lantern”...

Obviously you have no idea how many gay fanfictions come out based on Geoff Johns' run.
Seriously, Geoff Johns made Hal flirt with male characters and hinted Hal may be popular with gay people. Oliver Queen literarily said there's some kind of homosexual tension between him and Hal. It's also not a secret that Hal's relationship with Sinestro features homosexual subtext.
Hal can't be gay for his true love is Carol. But I think it's totally fine with him being bi or pan.

[The no face guy]

Bzzzt - WRONG!



True enough. They've been even more the red-headed stepchildren of DC than the JSA have, and with far less reason (except getting too closely tied to the Super-office and suffering mightily from capricious changes issuing from it).



Probably true. But note that Johns didn't touch anyone's sexual orientation except maybe Madam Fatal's (and that was an in-passing mention only).

Well then, that puts things into a little more context for me, if you've been following Alan since 68 I understand your frustration a bit more.

The JSA's appearances were a bit spotty after the All Star Squadron of the 70's until Geoff Johns took the title under his wing, ultimately he just got surpassed by Hal & the whole Green Lantern space core lore.

If you've been a hardcore Alan fan for all these years, than I can understand why the sexuality change would bother you, (if you invested heavily in reading about his family & kids) That brings clarity to the issue, cheers.

[Noodle]

Because no one has ever changed it, no matter how many times it was retold. Bridge; train; test run; sabotage causing train wreck; magic lantern saves only Alan. That's the nub of it, even now.

Yes, you're right. And those elements were still there when they had Alan as Gay. So him being gay changes nothing in those things you pointed out.

Just two issues later (All-American #18), he met Irene Miller, and was firmly established as not just straight, but a bit of a horndog. (He hardly knows Irene, and already he's making a pass at her at the end of the story!)

So those things were added on after his origin. Just like Superman flying and Batman no longer killing people. And now Alan Scott putting on an act as a heterosexual because an openly homosexual man wasn't OK back then. If anything him being a horndog and being that overt in his heterosexuality can easily be seen as him trying to hard to act straight.

You never did answer me about the Golden Age Green Lantern Archives - or any Golden Age Green Lantern stories. So I have no reason to think you know what you're talking about.

'

I'm not going to say that I've read every single Alan Scott comic, but I have read my fair share of them. I have to have read every single Alan Scott comic to "know what I'm talking about"? Does every comic follow it's golden age stories to the letter? No.

it's awfully wrenching (and HORRIBLY BAD writing) to be told "Ha ha, now he's gay and always has been gay, so suck it, you fools!"

Wow. So it's insulting to be gay now? That it's some giant dig at people and hurtful for a character to be homosexual? Wow.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Alan Scott being gay means he cheated two women into marriage and bore two children with one of them. That make him a scum. I cannot understand how some people consider this a non-issue.

Many gay men, pressured intensely by society, family, and religion, and told that if they try hard enough they can "change" (and if they don't then they will have a horrid life), spend years in denial about their own feelings, and have relationships and even marriages with women because they are told over and over again (and in Alan Scott's era, under threat of job loss, imprisonment, "medical treatment," and violence) that that is what they must do. (Some, of course, if they were Catholic, tried to avoid the whole issue by joining the priesthood, where they believed they could simply ignore any sexual feelings they had. This is how we wind up with so many gay priests.)

The histories, personal and general, are there for anyone who wants to read them. If you want to entirely ignore history and context and call those men people who "scum who cheated women into marriage" - as if they just woke up one day and decided to pretend they weren't gay, out of malice, or whim! - I will respectfully say that you're missing the bigger picture.

Or Alan Scott was bisexual, and did none of those things, and you can think up new insults to sling at him for his bisexuality instead.

[Doctor Bifrost]

You know, if some one says: "I'm a fan of Alan Scott and I quite like his GA history. I think his relationships with women - and his personal emotions while he was pursuing them, whether they were revealed implicitly or explicitly - are an important part of that, although they generally didn't play the same kind of role in his adventures, over the long term, as Lois Lane in Superman's. So, for that reason, even though I know they will be making changes, or adding new elements, to the his GA backstory as they introduce him into whatever the hell DC's new continuity will be going forward, I would much prefer that they kept him as a heterosexual, rather than decide he was gay - whether gay in a semi-open manner for the time, or completely closeted. I do know that he could be a gay man having trouble dealing with it, or in denial about it, and so pretty much all of his key adventures, and even his dates and marriages with women, could be largely unchanged (although his internal dialogue might be different). But I prefer and Alan Scott who is comfortable in his own skin and not dealing with internal conflicts like that, as he was always presented (at least until the Hiroshima bombing), so it's best to keep him straight and not overcomplicate things..."

Well, I would have no trouble with that at all. In fact, I agree.

But when people say: "Making Alan Scott gay erases 80 years of the character's history, it ruins him, it's an insult, they're only doing it to satisfy a small number of SJWs, it makes the character so different that he's not even the same character, he's scum who cheated two women into marriage and kids, it's a Big Shock and Massive Bloodbath event, they just want to put a checkmark next to his name instead of writing good stories..."

Yeah, well, I could respond to that piece by piece, but really I don't want to get any more involved in a discussion with fans who are quite that angry and disgusted, because I really don't think that anything good could come of it. So I'll just say:

(1) Alan Scott is bisexual, and didn't deal with it until he was older. His entire GA and SA stories are perfectly intact, and now he's happily married to a man. How's that?
(2) If you're that concerned about Alan's GA history, then really we should bring his dog sidekick Spark back - with increased longevity like his master. He was introduced late, but he was popular enough to have his own solo stories, which is more than Irene Miller ever got.

I wish you all well.

[ComixMaven]

So those things were added on after his origin. Just like Superman flying and Batman no longer killing people.

And Superman and Lois Lane, and Batman and Catwoman, and, and, and. The number of Golden Age superheroes who were introduced with girlfriend is a lot smaller than that of those who acquired one later.

Originally Posted by ComixMaven
it's awfully wrenching (and HORRIBLY BAD writing) to be told "Ha ha, now he's gay and always has been gay, so suck it, you fools!"

Wow. So it's insulting to be gay now? That it's some giant dig at people and hurtful for a character to be homosexual? Wow.

Get a clue, you. That was more about DC's utterly cavalier attitude toward their characters' history - they've only just been forced to recognize that characters without a history are a lot less interesting to fans, and they're still rather p!ssy about it.

[Doctor Bifrost]

magic lantern saves only Alan

Just out of mild curiosity: if they wrote a story revealing that the Starheart-influenced lantern actually saved two men, and the second one has been toiling secretly and evilly, and now emerges to become a great nemesis of this Green Lantern, how much would that bother you?