Is JMS run actually THAT good?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The story ideas may not be JMS, but the execution was all his, so he's in no way blameless.

In practical terms the final two issues were written by Quesada himself so no the execution wasn't "all his".

JMS had every single practical idea for doing the story well, shot down.
-- He wanted Aunt May getting shot to lead immediately to OMD, instead Quesada and others asked him to pad it out with stories*. That killed the dramatic tension, the desperation, that could justify Peter potentially making that deal. If Aunt May was shot badly and was seconds from dying and Mephisto came in and stopped time and so on...then you could sort of justify that Peter could do it. It's also right after May got shot before his eyes, so emotionally it's like Bruce-in-crime-alley-seconds-after-Joe Chill, so you could make it work on an emotional level. But if you drag it out, with many issues with Aunt May in the hospital on her deathbed, with Peter going out and doing an awesomely badass beatdown on Kingpin, with MJ and Peter canoodling atop ESB, and "The One Above All" telling Peter it's gonna be okay, and also fighting Jonah in a boxing ring...that's not gonna work. The story now read like a dude for days processing his Aunt on deathbed simply not accepting reality. That's how it came across emotionally.
-- JMS also wanted Peter himself to make that deal, and not MJ, feeling that it would come off as cowardly to a lot of people that Peter is passing the buck on to his wife to make a deal that would bail him out. These two were among the major complaints for that story among readers. JMS wanted to provide a detailed explanation for what the timeline changes did and did not do. Some of that included stuff like Gwen being alive which Quesada let him believe for a long time he could have done.**

So I don't see how it's possible to hold JMS responsible for this.

He never agreed with the story and only did it as a favor to Quesada, and out of friendship and loyalty (and surprising as this is, Quesada and JMS are friends...JMS wrote Thor after finishing OMD and the public fallout about that after all and continued working there until about 2010), so he was willing to affix his name to a very controversial story, and then had all his suggestions and ideas turned down. So to me, JMS was the guy who was a real mensch about this, and Quesada mismanaged his side of the story. JMS' mistake was removing his name or threatening to after the first two issues came out. What he should have done was refused to do the story flatout and tell Quesada that he wanted to finish his run on his terms, and then another writer or so on can do the story that Quesada wanted or Quesada would write on his own.



*The irony is that these "Stopgap" stories ultimately provided masterpieces like Back in Black and "To Have and to Hold". It's not a good look that the only great stories directly made possible by OMD aren't the stories that came after, but the ones set directly before written in part to prolong and extend the status-quo that OMD claimed was bad and so on. Fraction's annual was a pre-emptive protest against OMD.

** And as for changing the timeline to bring Gwen Stacy back. Many fans here might object to that for changing too much, and many creators did at that time. But let me say that if they had done that, if they undid the marriage and continuity and brought back the Lee-Romita College Era and made that the default status-quo...that actually might have worked. Because the Lee-Romita era is charismatic whereas BND is not charismatic at all (it's the least charismatic period ever). If you bring Gwen back, you are trading one failure for another. Peter got something out of that deal, as opposed to OMD where he got nothing back (and no Aunt May and Harry Osborn, emotionally, aren't tradeoffs). Having Gwen back, would mean that when Peter and MJ date later on, it would be without the issues and baggage of Gwen's death between them, and that would be a totally new thing in 616 for those characters.

So while I agree with JMS and think that undoing the marriage was a mistake and unnecessary, if it had to be done JMS' concept seems to have been the only one that could have maybe made it work.

[Spiderfang]

I actually just finished collecting the JMS run (sans One More Day), so I might give this a read once I finish up my Clone Saga read.

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5130344]In practical terms the final two issues were written by Quesada himself so no the execution wasn't "all his".

JMS had every single practical idea for doing the story well, shot down.
-- He wanted Aunt May getting shot to lead immediately to OMD, instead Quesada and others asked him to pad it out with stories*. That killed the dramatic tension, the desperation, that could justify Peter potentially making that deal. If Aunt May was shot badly and was seconds from dying and Mephisto came in and stopped time and so on...then you could sort of justify that Peter could do it. It's also right after May got shot before his eyes, so emotionally it's like Bruce-in-crime-alley-seconds-after-Joe Chill, so you could make it work on an emotional level. But if you drag it out, with many issues with Aunt May in the hospital on her deathbed, with Peter going out and doing an awesomely badass beatdown on Kingpin, with MJ and Peter canoodling atop ESB, and "The One Above All" telling Peter it's gonna be okay, and also fighting Jonah in a boxing ring...that's not gonna work. The story now read like a dude for days processing his Aunt on deathbed simply not accepting reality. That's how it came across emotionally.
-- JMS also wanted Peter himself to make that deal, and not MJ, feeling that it would come off as cowardly to a lot of people that Peter is passing the buck on to his wife to make a deal that would bail him out. These two were among the major complaints for that story among readers. JMS wanted to provide a detailed explanation for what the timeline changes did and did not do. Some of that included stuff like Gwen being alive which Quesada let him believe for a long time he could have done.**

So I don't see how it's possible to hold JMS responsible for this.

He never agreed with the story and only did it as a favor to Quesada, and out of friendship and loyalty (and surprising as this is, Quesada and JMS are friends...JMS wrote Thor after finishing OMD and the public fallout about that after all and continued working there until about 2010), so he was willing to affix his name to a very controversial story, and then had all his suggestions and ideas turned down. So to me, JMS was the guy who was a real mensch about this, and Quesada mismanaged his side of the story. JMS' mistake was removing his name or threatening to after the first two issues came out. What he should have done was refused to do the story flatout and tell Quesada that he wanted to finish his run on his terms, and then another writer or so on can do the story that Quesada wanted or Quesada would write on his own.



*The irony is that these "Stopgap" stories ultimately provided masterpieces like Back in Black and "To Have and to Hold". It's not a good look that the only great stories directly made possible by OMD aren't the stories that came after, but the ones set directly before written in part to prolong and extend the status-quo that OMD claimed was bad and so on. Fraction's annual was a pre-emptive protest against OMD.

** And as for changing the timeline to bring Gwen Stacy back. Many fans here might object to that for changing too much, and many creators did at that time. But let me say that if they had done that, if they undid the marriage and continuity and brought back the Lee-Romita College Era and made that the default status-quo...that actually might have worked. Because the Lee-Romita era is charismatic whereas BND is not charismatic at all (it's the least charismatic period ever). If you bring Gwen back, you are trading one failure for another. Peter got something out of that deal, as opposed to OMD where he got nothing back (and no Aunt May and Harry Osborn, emotionally, aren't tradeoffs). Having Gwen back, would mean that when Peter and MJ date later on, it would be without the issues and baggage of Gwen's death between them, and that would be a totally new thing in 616 for those characters.

So while I agree with JMS and think that undoing the marriage was a mistake and unnecessary, if it had to be done JMS' concept seems to have been the only one that could have maybe made it work.[/QUOTE
You are trying to rationalize OMD. I would have more sympathy if JMS did not write Sins Past, Totem and The Other. Basically we are talking about a decent percentage of the most despised Spider-Man stories of all time. Think about it almost every single hated story except Clone Saga and Year One were written by him or Dan Slott. Totem the more I think about it the more I hate it ( even more then Sins Past). Most hated stories for me. 1: OND 1a: BND ( especially the cover). 2: Silk. 3: Clone Saga. 4: Totem. 5: Year One.

[Alan2099]

He never agreed with the story and only did it as a favor to Quesada, and out of friendship and loyalty (and surprising as this is, Quesada and JMS are friends...JMS wrote Thor after finishing OMD and the public fallout about that after all and continued working there until about 2010), so he was willing to affix his name to a very controversial story, and then had all his suggestions and ideas turned down. So to me, JMS was the guy who was a real mensch about this, and Quesada mismanaged his side of the story. JMS' mistake was removing his name or threatening to after the first two issues came out. What he should have done was refused to do the story flatout and tell Quesada that he wanted to finish his run on his terms, and then another writer or so on can do the story that Quesada wanted or Quesada would write on his own.

He did the story. Whether he agreed with it or not, we saw the story the way he told it. He could have not done the story. He could have told the story differently or wrote it better, but he didn't.

In the end, the story we read is the story he wrote.

** And as for changing the timeline to bring Gwen Stacy back. Many fans here might object to that for changing too much, and many creators did at that time. But let me say that if they had done that, if they undid the marriage and continuity and brought back the Lee-Romita College Era and made that the default status-quo...that actually might have worked. Because the Lee-Romita era is charismatic whereas BND is not charismatic at all (it's the least charismatic period ever). If you bring Gwen back, you are trading one failure for another. Peter got something out of that deal, as opposed to OMD where he got nothing back (and no Aunt May and Harry Osborn, emotionally, aren't tradeoffs). Having Gwen back, would mean that when Peter and MJ date later on, it would be without the issues and baggage of Gwen's death between them, and that would be a totally new thing in 616 for those characters.

No. The three main complaints about OMD are that it ended the marriage, there was a dead with Mephisto, and people saying that it undid the growth of the character and showed that Marvel wasn't going to let him grow. Setting it back any further doesn't avoid any of those issues and only makes some of them worse. People would be complaining about it just as much if it was done that way, probably more. You're just trying desperately to find a way not to blame JMS.

Most hated stories for me. 1: OND 1a: BND ( especially the cover). 2: Silk. 3: Clone Saga. 4: Totem. 5: Year One.

I'd go with...
1. Totem
2. Chapter One
3. Silk
4. Clone Saga
5. One More Day

I really didn't find anything wrong with Brand New Day and OMD wasn't a horrible idea, but the way the told it was a misfire on every level.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

He did the story.

I've been telling you that he didn't in fact write the final two issues, so JMS himself did not do the story entirely by himself.

Whether he agreed with it or not, we saw the story the way he told it.

No it didn't. All the dramatic beats and tension he planned was vetoed and altered at every step. He didn't even get to do the story the way he originally planned to.

He could have not done the story.

He could have said no , but then the complaint would be that JMS was not willing to accept that Marvel owned these characters and that JMS was selfish to cling to a version he liked and wasn't willing to pass it on. JMS-haters would always find some other excuse because their reasons for dislike isn't rational to start with. JMS was willing to be a professional about it and do a story he disagreed with, as a favor to the editor and to show that he was playing ball with the company. That they didn't allow him to do that his way was the last straw.

He could have told the story differently or wrote it better, but he didn't.

Every single suggestion he made to do it better was vetoed. I mean Aunt May getting shot leading directly to OMD makes a heck of a lot more sense from a dramatic perspective than her staying on the gurney for months on end.

If this was any other writer than JMS, in like situation, you would not be so keen to dismiss these circumstances.

The three main complaints...

There are far more "main complaints" about OMD than just three.

[PeterParked]

Probably the best Spider Man run after Bendis’ Ultimate, with Dan Slott’s close third. The rest, except some stories and story arcs here and there is forgettable.

[NC_Yankee]

Probably the best Spider Man run after Bendis’ Ultimate, with Dan Slott’s close third. The rest, except some stories and story arcs here and there is forgettable.

I cannot believe you said that. Ditko is not only the best but we are still reaping the benefits of Ditko. Why? Who created Spider-Man? Besides that Look at his Rogues Gallery. Otto, Norman, Kraven, Lizard, Mysterio, Vulture and Sandman to name a few. In one series ASM 31-33 he not only created one of ( if not the greatest) arc of them all in The Master Planner Saga, but he created Gwen and Harry, and gave Peter one of and I still believe the greatest victory in his career. He also came up with JJJ and Aunt May ( supporting characters that lasted over half a century), and oh yea, the idea of MJ.

[PCN24454]

I cannot believe you said that. Ditko is not only the best but we are still reaping the benefits of Ditko. Why? Who created Spider-Man? Besides that Look at his Rogues Gallery. Otto, Norman, Kraven, Lizard, Mysterio, Vulture and Sandman to name a few. In one series ASM 31-33 he not only created one of ( if not the greatest) arc of them all in The Master Planner Saga, but he created Gwen and Harry, and gave Peter one of and I still believe the greatest victory in his career. He also came up with JJJ and Aunt May ( supporting characters that lasted over half a century), and oh yea, the idea of MJ.

Yet most of the most popular renditions of the characters often have nothing to do with Ditko's interpretation.

That's what makes him overrated.

[WebSlingWonder]

I think that this became a hornet's nest of a topic...

[NC_Yankee]

Yet most of the most popular renditions of the characters often have nothing to do with Ditko's interpretation.

That's what makes him overrated.

I will agree with you about Gwen ( but traditional Gwen is different then Ghost Spider). But Otto and Norman to use two examples were douches then and are douches now. As far as Peter is concerned, he had constant growth up and until Clone Saga, and it MCU wants Peter as the teenager that was created by Ditko not a more grown up version. JJJ has always been the jealous anti-Spider-Man character created by Ditko right up until the Spencer run. Even in MCU JJJ is that way.

[PCN24454]

I will agree with you about Gwen ( but traditional Gwen is different then Ghost Spider). But Otto and Norman to use two examples were douches then and are douches now. As far as Peter is concerned, he had constant growth up and until Clone Saga, and it MCU wants Peter as the teenager that was created by Ditko not a more grown up version. JJJ has always been the jealous anti-Spider-Man character created by Ditko right up until the Spencer run. Even in MCU JJJ is that way.

Ditko's run honestly wasn't that good. That's why next to no adaptations actually have elements from it.

JJ, MJ, Harry, Flash, and plethora of other characters had their personalities influenced and completely changed by other writers. Who made MJ's backstory? Not him.

[PCN24454]

I think that this became a hornet's nest of a topic...

It's a comic book forum. It's always a hornet's nest.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Ditko's run honestly wasn't that good. That's why next to no adaptations actually have elements from it.

Fact is that we are discussing JMS' run in a thread started by someone to bash him, not to bash Ditko. This stuff is quite off-topic.

Start a thread to bash Ditko if this bothers you so much to vent about it.

Who made MJ's backstory? Not him.

Mary Jane's backstory and character development is all based on elements established by Steve Ditko. Conway said that he believed that Mary Jane had to be the one because Aunt May believed that she was the girl for him. And later writers agreed there had to be something to Mary Jane that made Aunt May believe that she and Peter would work, even if they themselves didn't entirely accept Conway's sentiments.

Roger Stern was the man who developed Mary Jane's backstory and he was a keen Ditko enthusiast, and the first time he alluded to Mary Jane's past was the issue in (ASM#241 or 242) where Peter, MJ, May, Anna have lunch and after that May explains why she and Anna tried to set up Peter and Mary Jane way back then, "both of you had lost so much".For Stern, who was no Peter/MJ shipper, it was simply about building on what's established and making character motivation align with what was set up.

[Spidey5640]

Ditko's run honestly wasn't that good. That's why next to no adaptations actually have elements from it.

JJ, MJ, Harry, Flash, and plethora of other characters had their personalities influenced and completely changed by other writers. Who made MJ's backstory? Not him.

Really? Ditko not that good? That's unbelievable.

[NC_Yankee]

Fact is that we are discussing JMS' run in a thread started by someone to bash him, not to bash Ditko. This stuff is quite off-topic.

Start a thread to bash Ditko if this bothers you so much to vent about it.



Mary Jane's backstory and character development is all based on elements established by Steve Ditko. Conway said that he believed that Mary Jane had to be the one because Aunt May believed that she was the girl for him. And later writers agreed there had to be something to Mary Jane that made Aunt May believe that she and Peter would work, even if they themselves didn't entirely accept Conway's sentiments.

Roger Stern was the man who developed Mary Jane's backstory and he was a keen Ditko enthusiast, and the first time he alluded to Mary Jane's past was the issue in (ASM#241 or 242) where Peter, MJ, May, Anna have lunch and after that May explains why she and Anna tried to set up Peter and Mary Jane way back then, "both of you had lost so much".For Stern, who was no Peter/MJ shipper, it was simply about building on what's established and making character motivation align with what was set up.

That is exactly right. Roger Stern who is in my humble opinion the most underrated Spider-Man writer completely understood this.