Is JMS run actually THAT good?

[PCN24454]

And arguably emphasized how out of sorts that stuff is from mainline, traditional, Spider-Man.

No mystical Spider-Man is great concept, but it's used more as an excuse rather than anything really important.

TAS and Shattered Dimensions are good examples of that.

[kingaliencracker]

JMS is an excellent writer, and he did so many great things with Spider-Man.

Having said that, I can't get over the awfulness of Sins Past and One More Day, even giving him the benefit of doubt that both stories were heavily influenced by editorial (especially in the case of OMD). It taints the entire run for me.

[Ozymandias]

What I wonder is why a writer of his reputation would write something he didn't want to. What kind of contract had he signed that forced him to do so?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What I wonder is why a writer of his reputation would write something he didn't want to. What kind of contract had he signed that forced him to do so?

From what I understand it wasn't a contract. JMS felt a personal obligation to Quesada who he considered a friend. Quesada gave JMS a free hand in the first four years of his run, and JMS felt that in return he had to do a solid for him. He disagreed with ending the marriage, and the story but as a writer he thought he could make it work. Quesada was the one who gave JMS the gig to write ASM in the first place. And after OMD, JMS still worked for Marvel, notably on his run on Thor.

It's also a case of professionalism, i.e. showing that you are a stand-up team player. So yeah, if OMD came out as JMS intended it would still have ended with the marriage and Mephisto because those were the conditions that Quesada had set-up...the question is would the story's impact have been lessened with better execution. Probably not. In either case, JMS is a guy with very thick skin. He's very combative so I don't think he'd be scared of controversy to any great extent.

[Ozymandias]

From what I understand it wasn't a contract. JMS felt a personal obligation to Quesada who he considered a friend. Quesada gave JMS a free hand in the first four years of his run, and JMS felt that in return he had to do a solid for him. He disagreed with ending the marriage, and the story but as a writer he thought he could make it work. Quesada was the one who gave JMS the gig to write ASM in the first place. And after OMD, JMS still worked for Marvel, notably on his run on Thor.

It's also a case of professionalism, i.e. showing that you are a stand-up team player. So yeah, if OMD came out as JMS intended it would still have ended with the marriage and Mephisto because those were the conditions that Quesada had set-up...the question is would the story's impact have been lessened with better execution. Probably not. In either case, JMS is a guy with very thick skin. He's very combative so I don't think he'd be scared of controversy to any great extent.

Going into business with a friend isn't usually a thing to recommend. Case in point. A total stranger would arguably had given JMS as much reign over the title anyway.

As for "taking one for the team"... that's all good and well as long as you aren't the star. When your name's at stake, you can be just as professional by saying thanks, but no thanks. Different strokes.

Thx for the background, as always.

[Alan2099]

Probably not. In either case, JMS is a guy with very thick skin.

If he has such thick skin, then why has he always been so quick to pass the blame to somebody else?

[Bruce Wayne]

He didn't. For example when he defended Sins Past while it was released, he never once mentioned editorial's involvement.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

JMS has never denied responsibility for Sins Past.

OMD yes. That he washed his hands off

[Frontier]

No mystical Spider-Man is great concept, but it's used more as an excuse rather than anything really important.

TAS and Shattered Dimensions are good examples of that.

In small doses, yeah, but not as a central element to the mythos in my opinion.

Execution is also important.

[kingaliencracker]

JMS has never denied responsibility for Sins Past.

OMD yes. That he washed his hands off

Actually, JMS did state that his original intention was for Peter to be the twins' father but Quesada quashed that. He also said that he was told that he would be able to undo Sins Past with One More Day but that Quesada reneged on that too.

[kingaliencracker]

From what I understand it wasn't a contract. JMS felt a personal obligation to Quesada who he considered a friend. Quesada gave JMS a free hand in the first four years of his run, and JMS felt that in return he had to do a solid for him. He disagreed with ending the marriage, and the story but as a writer he thought he could make it work. Quesada was the one who gave JMS the gig to write ASM in the first place. And after OMD, JMS still worked for Marvel, notably on his run on Thor.

It's also a case of professionalism, i.e. showing that you are a stand-up team player. So yeah, if OMD came out as JMS intended it would still have ended with the marriage and Mephisto because those were the conditions that Quesada had set-up...the question is would the story's impact have been lessened with better execution. Probably not. In either case, JMS is a guy with very thick skin. He's very combative so I don't think he'd be scared of controversy to any great extent.

To be fair, JMS wasn't against undoing the marriage. I don't know if he would have done it on his own accord but he's at least publicly supported the idea of a single Peter Parker.

My understanding of why JMS was upset was because his original outline for OMD involved time alteration and the return of Gwen Stacy at its conclusion, which was supposedly agreed upon originally but then nixed by editorial.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

To be fair, JMS wasn't against undoing the marriage. I don't know if he would have done it on his own accord but he's at least publicly supported the idea of a single Peter Parker.

Not sure where you got this idea but JMS has publicly said the reverse of this.

On a Reddit Q&A last year when promoting his autobiography, he said this,

JMichaelStraczynski
AMA Author
It's a matter of historical record that Marvel wanted to unmarry Peter (but without the political weight of a divorce) and the book was commissioned by Editorial to achieve that. I had come onto the book to reunite the two, and I loved writing them as a married couple, would've been happy to continue doing that forever.
https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comme...d_were_having/

Way back in 2008 he said this

Q: You were the writer on Marvel’s recent Spider-Man event One More Day, in which Spider-man makes a deal with Mephisto (the devil) to save his Aunt’s life by negating his marriage to Mary Jane. It was rumored you had some big disagreements about this story line with Marvel Editor-in-Chief Joe Quesada.

[JMS]: Often times when you care a lot about something, you can disagree strenuously. Personally, I was perfectly happy keeping them married; I didn’t think Mephisto should be used in that fashion, and I didn’t like the idea of erasing everyone’s memory. Whenever you bring magic into a story you have to be really rigorous about the rest of it. And a lot of logical questions to my mind were not being addressed. Having said that, it’s a complicated universe and it is Joe’s purview. Yes, we disagreed strenuously, and some of it leaked out. I take responsibility for that, but the reality is that Joe I consider to be a friend, and anyone who wants to say a bad word about Joe has to go through me first.
https://www.amc.com/talk/2008/05/masters-of-scif-1

My understanding of why JMS was upset was because his original outline for OMD involved time alteration and the return of Gwen Stacy at its conclusion, which was supposedly agreed upon originally but then nixed by editorial.

JMS' disagreements were extensive. The one time he talked in detail was here:

"It's magic, we don't have to explain it."

And that's the part I had a real problem with, maybe the single biggest problem. There's this notion that magic fixes everything. It doesn't. "It's magic, we don't have to explain it." Well, actually, yes, you do. Magic has to have rules. And this is clearly not just a case of one spell making everybody forget he's Spidey...suddenly you're bringing back the dead, undoing wounds, erasing records, reinstating web shooters, on and on and on.

What I wanted to do was to make one small change to history, a tiny thing, whose ripples we could control to only touch what editorial wanted to touch, making changes we could explain logically. I worked for weeks to come up with a timeline that would leave every other bit of continuity in place. It was rigorous, and as logical as I could make it. In the end of OMD as published, Harry is alive and he's always been alive as far as the characters know...so how is that different than he was alive the whole time?

It made no sense to me.

Still doesn't. It's sloppy. It violates every rule of writing fiction of the fantastic that I and every other SF/Fantasy writer knows you can't violate. It's fantasy 101.

It troubled me that it's MJ and not Peter who is the one to actively make the decision.

I'd originally written the first issue of OMD to take place directly after May gets shot, and in fact turned in the first script directly after she gets nailed. Editorial decided to build in a block of issues for One More Day...meaning May would be in that bed for almost a *year* which I thought was just too long to make work.

And yes, I wanted to retcon the Gwen twins out of continuity, which was something I always assumed I could do at the end of my run. I wasn't allowed to do this, and yes, it pissed me off. I felt I was left holding the bag for something I wanted to get rid of, and taking the rap for a writing lapse that I had never committed. Why this aspect was not brought up in the other interview, you'd have to ask Joe.

Mainly, the book was rewritten in the editorial offices to a degree that the words weren't mine any longer, to a certain degree in three, and massively in four. If the work represents me, I leave the name there and take the rap; if it doesn't, then that's a different situation. There's just not much of my work there, especially once you get to the last dong of midnight...everything after that was written by editorial.

Whether my work is good or it sucks, it's mine. What came out of the end of OMD wasn't, hence my desire to omit the writing credit. Joe graciously offered to share it on the last issue. I think that helped. Credit where credit is due.

What I don't want is for this to turn into a public pissing match. Joe did what he did because he thought it was the right thing to do, and as EIC that's his call, not mine. I respect and admire him. I hope this will be the end of the matter.
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.co...c=18701.0;wap2

[Hulkout42]

Not all of it, but a lot of the JMS hate seems to boil down to Sins Past, OMD, and the Totem thing.

Just pointing out that Sins Past and OMD put together make less than 1/5 of the run and are bad mostly due to editorial interference, the second one being a story he vehemently resisted entirely. It seems absurd and unfair to judge an entire almost-decade long run by Sins Past or OMD. It is the "But Venezuela!" of JMS discussions.

I concur with this, except for the totem thing, that i did like.

[Hulkout42]

Not sure where you got this idea but JMS has publicly said the reverse of this.

On a Reddit Q&A last year when promoting his autobiography, he said this,



Way back in 2008 he said this




JMS' disagreements were extensive. The one time he talked in detail was here:

I applaud his defense of his friend but Quesada will always be the target of my ire over OMD, not JMS.

[kingaliencracker]

Not sure where you got this idea but JMS has publicly said the reverse of this.

On a Reddit Q&A last year when promoting his autobiography, he said this,



Way back in 2008 he said this




JMS' disagreements were extensive. The one time he talked in detail was here:

Hmm I must have my wires crossed. It was 13 years ago.

Thanks for the correction. Maybe I was thinking of an interview Quesada did where he said JMS was on board with undoing the marriage...?