Is JMS run actually THAT good?

[Scott Taylor]

As a pure writer...judging the script, plot, characterization, dialogue. I'd rank JMS in the top 3 -- alongside Roger Stern and J. M. DeMatteis. Those three are the best writers of Spider-Man in the literary sense.

In terms of judging it as a collaboration and in the overall ranking as a run, I'd place him in the top 5, don't ask me for the rest, just I'd rank it high.

With this I agree, with the use of literary sense meaning the manner in which he constructed his stories and developed characters. His writing is not your typical kind of comics dreck that shortcuts characterization and uses a lot of cliches.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Conway who have us ASM 121-122 and Punisher and then went to Hollywood

Gerry Conway went on to Hollywood to work as a writer of scripts for TV shows. Not knocking it down but it's not exactly a distinguished career exactly.

Conway's a good writer in comics and had decent dialogue and ideas for his time, and some great stories under his belt. I always saw him as an example of a hard working guy with skill and talent, and some bright ideas, creating great stories, which happens a lot. But I would never say his writing is really deep.

Whereas JMS created a successful TV show with Babylon -5, then came to comics, and then after comics wrote the screenplay for Changeling, a Clint Eastwood movie starring Angelina Jolie.

Look at Ditko ( look what he created),

Ditko's an excellent plotter and artist with a lot of great ideas certainly but it's quite different from judging writing from a literary sense.

The thing about comics is that writing in comics is not the same as writing a book or a play. It's not very easy to judge and grade. When I say writing from a literary perspective, I mean it in a different sense from writing in general.

I would even take Marv Wolfman over Jenkins. Why? He created Felicia which is more then Jenkins ever did.

Marv Wolfman has a terrible ear for dialogues and his Spider-Man stories are rife with it. Yes he co-created Black Cat but his version of the character is quite different from, and quite inferior to, the one that Roger Stern and Bill Mantlo wrote and developed and transformed.

With this I agree, with the use of literary sense meaning the manner in which he constructed his stories and developed characters. His writing is not your typical kind of comics dreck that shortcuts characterization and uses a lot of cliches.

Yes.

Just to clarify, judging JMS' writing and Stern and JMD's is not to knock down Conway, Lee, and Michelinie, Defalco and others.

The thing is writing in comics is not the same as writing in another medium. Some writers are good at plot (Ditko, Michelinie, Slott) and others are better at dialogue (Stan "the Man" Lee, Gerry Conway), while others might be weak in some respects but the characters feel consistent and charming. You can be a good writer in general and get a couple of things wrong, and you can be a bad writer and get one thing right (i.e. Slott whose plotting is technically impressive on the face of it, but falls apart due to lack of coherence with characters, and generally quite weak and repetitive dialogue).

Writing in the literary sense is where all the elements of storytelling are in synch -- characterization (what the character does, motivations and actions), story (what the writer wants the characters to do in purpose of a grander plot), dialogue (voice sounds right, and characters speak in a way that's convincing and also has deeper meaning). That's what separates your Claremonts, your Sterns, your JMDs and your JMSes.

[WebSlingWonder]

Gerry Conway went on to Hollywood to work as a writer of scripts for TV shows. Not knocking it down but it's not exactly a distinguished career exactly.

Conway's a good writer in comics and had decent dialogue and ideas for his time, and some great stories under his belt. I always saw him as an example of a hard working guy with skill and talent, and some bright ideas, creating great stories, which happens a lot. But I would never say his writing is really deep.

Whereas JMS created a successful TV show with Babylon -5, then came to comics, and then after comics wrote the screenplay for Changeling, a Clint Eastwood movie starring Angelina Jolie.



Ditko's an excellent plotter and artist with a lot of great ideas certainly but it's quite different from judging writing from a literary sense.

The thing about comics is that writing in comics is not the same as writing a book or a play. It's not very easy to judge and grade. When I say writing from a literary perspective, I mean it in a different sense from writing in general.



Marv Wolfman has a terrible ear for dialogues and his Spider-Man stories are rife with it. Yes he co-created Black Cat but his version of the character is quite different from, and quite inferior to, the one that Roger Stern and Bill Mantlo wrote and developed and transformed.



Yes.

Just to clarify, judging JMS' writing and Stern and JMD's is not to knock down Conway, Lee, and Michelinie, Defalco and others.

The thing is writing in comics is not the same as writing in another medium. Some writers are good at plot (Ditko, Michelinie, Slott) and others are better at dialogue (Stan "the Man" Lee, Gerry Conway), while others might be weak in some respects but the characters feel consistent and charming. You can be a good writer in general and get a couple of things wrong, and you can be a bad writer and get one thing right (i.e. Slott whose plotting is technically impressive on the face of it, but falls apart due to lack of coherence with characters, and generally quite weak and repetitive dialogue).

Writing in the literary sense is where all the elements of storytelling are in synch -- characterization (what the character does, motivations and actions), story (what the writer wants the characters to do in purpose of a grander plot), dialogue (voice sounds right, and characters speak in a way that's convincing and also has deeper meaning). That's what separates your Claremonts, your Sterns, your JMDs and your JMSes.

An excellent analysis and spot on. Well done.

[NC_Yankee]

Gerry Conway went on to Hollywood to work as a writer of scripts for TV shows. Not knocking it down but it's not exactly a distinguished career exactly.

Conway's a good writer in comics and had decent dialogue and ideas for his time, and some great stories under his belt. I always saw him as an example of a hard working guy with skill and talent, and some bright ideas, creating great stories, which happens a lot. But I would never say his writing is really deep.

Whereas JMS created a successful TV show with Babylon -5, then came to comics, and then after comics wrote the screenplay for Changeling, a Clint Eastwood movie starring Angelina Jolie.



Ditko's an excellent plotter and artist with a lot of great ideas certainly but it's quite different from judging writing from a literary sense.

The thing about comics is that writing in comics is not the same as writing a book or a play. It's not very easy to judge and grade. When I say writing from a literary perspective, I mean it in a different sense from writing in general.



Marv Wolfman has a terrible ear for dialogues and his Spider-Man stories are rife with it. Yes he co-created Black Cat but his version of the character is quite different from, and quite inferior to, the one that Roger Stern and Bill Mantlo wrote and developed and transformed.



Yes.

Just to clarify, judging JMS' writing and Stern and JMD's is not to knock down Conway, Lee, and Michelinie, Defalco and others.

The thing is writing in comics is not the same as writing in another medium. Some writers are good at plot (Ditko, Michelinie, Slott) and others are better at dialogue (Stan "the Man" Lee, Gerry Conway), while others might be weak in some respects but the characters feel consistent and charming. You can be a good writer in general and get a couple of things wrong, and you can be a bad writer and get one thing right (i.e. Slott whose plotting is technically impressive on the face of it, but falls apart due to lack of coherence with characters, and generally quite weak and repetitive dialogue).

Writing in the literary sen is where all the elements of storytelling are in synch -- characterization (what the character does, motivations and actions), story (what the writer wants the characters to do in purpose of a grander plot), dialogue (voice sounds right, and characters speak in a way that's convincing and also has deeper meaning). That's what separates your Claremonts, your Sterns, your JMDs and your JMSes.

Revolutionary Jack I am the first one to acknowledge you are an encyclopedia of Spider-Man ( although quite often we are on different sides of issues), and I certainly acknowledge what Stern did with Felicia ( as well as MJ), we also know that Wolfman was a weak writer, but he created a character that has lasted over 40 years, and Jenkins cannot put that on his resume.

[WebSlingWonder]

Revolutionary Jack I am the first one to acknowledge you are an encyclopedia of Spider-Man ( although quite often we are on different sides of issues), and I certainly acknowledge what Stern did with Felicia ( as well as MJ), we also know that Wolfman was a weak writer, but he created a character that has lasted over 40 years, and Jenkins cannot put that on his resume.

Two things here:
1) Wolfman may have created Felicia, but didn't develop her past a certain point. He wrote her first two appearances, then Mantlo wrote her next two, then Stern in her next two before she became a regular in Spectacular Spider-Man. So by that definition, Mantlo and Stern deserve more credit for developing the Felicia Hardy that stuck with fans for the long haul.

2) Jenkins also has claim to "Revenge of the Green Goblin" and "A Death in the Family", two of the best Norman Osborn Green Goblin stories in Spider-Man history. He also wrote "One Small Break", another incredible tale and developed the cancer story for Eddie Brock which persisted for years, Doc Ock's origin as an abused child which defined his character. Wolfman can't claim that.

[NC_Yankee]

Two things here:
1) Wolfman may have created Felicia, but didn't develop her past a certain point. He wrote her first two appearances, then Mantlo wrote her next two, then Stern in her next two before she became a regular in Spectacular Spider-Man. So by that definition, Mantlo and Stern deserve more credit for developing the Felicia Hardy that stuck with fans for the long haul.

2) Jenkins also has claim to "Revenge of the Green Goblin" and "A Death in the Family", two of the best Norman Osborn Green Goblin stories in Spider-Man history. He also wrote "One Small Break", another incredible tale and developed the cancer story for Eddie Brock which persisted for years, Doc Ock's origin as an abused child which defined his character. Wolfman can't claim that.

Those are valid points. No wonder I said you are an “Encyclopedia of Spider-Man.” I tip my hat. You beat me.

[Ozymandias]

He wrote her first two appearances, then Mantlo wrote her next two, then Stern in her next two before she became a regular in Spectacular Spider-Man. So by that definition, Mantlo and Stern deserve more credit for developing the Felicia Hardy that stuck with fans for the long haul.

At the risk of being nit-picky, it was one an a half by Wolfman (ASM #205 is credited to Michelinie), then one appearance from Stern (two issues), then one cameo from JMD (MTU #125) and then Mantlo, who was obviously the one who made the biggest contribution.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

At the risk of being nit-picky, it was one an a half by Wolfman (ASM #205 is credited to Michelinie), then one appearance from Stern (two issues), then one cameo from JMD (MTU #125) and then Mantlo, who was obviously the one who made the biggest contribution.

Mary Jane Watson's character was itself overhauled by Gerry Conway, and then by Roger Stern (who created her backstory and introduced elements of it) and then by Tom Defalco who told her origin story for the first time. The character of Mary Jane whether it's USM, Raimi's Trilogy, the PS4 game and so on all derive essentially from these three writers, overwriting the original prattling version by Stan Lee. Conway in particular was the first to define and cement her as the story's leading lady and co-protagonist and featured their love story as the emotional engine of the series.

Marv Wolfman deserves some small credit for that too. In ASM#192, he introduced the idea that MJ's parents were divorced (in a thought bubble). One of my favorite ironies is the fact that 100 issues after Wolfman wrote her out of the books, she and Peter got married (ASM#292) it's like life conspiring to f--k with Wolfman's wrong opinions and I love it. Especially since that thought bubble he wrote about MJ ended up being the most important lasting contribution of his run.

So it's the same thing with Felicia. I think Jed Mckay will be a third after Stern and Mantlo since he's making her work as an ongoing (and a reasonably successful and entertaining one to boot).

[Ozymandias]

Mary Jane Watson's character was itself overhauled by Gerry Conway, and then by Roger Stern (who created her backstory and introduced elements of it) and then by Tom Defalco who told her origin story for the first time. The character of Mary Jane whether it's USM, Raimi's Trilogy, the PS4 game and so on all derive essentially from these three writers, overwriting the original prattling version by Stan Lee. Conway in particular was the first to define and cement her as the story's leading lady and co-protagonist and featured their love story as the emotional engine of the series.

Marv Wolfman deserves some small credit for that too. In ASM#192, he introduced the idea that MJ's parents were divorced (in a thought bubble). One of my favorite ironies is the fact that 100 issues after Wolfman wrote her out of the books, she and Peter got married (ASM#292) it's like life conspiring to f--k with Wolfman's wrong opinions and I love it. Especially since that thought bubble he wrote about MJ ended up being the most important lasting contribution of his run.

So it's the same thing with Felicia. I think Jed Mckay will be a third after Stern and Mantlo since he's making her work as an ongoing (and a reasonably successful and entertaining one to boot).

You won't be surprised if I tell you I was happy with Woflman writing her off. Stern only recovered her as a part of the cast he wanted around, nothing more. DeFalco introduced an ambiguous retcon, which only worked as such, but then Conway had to come along and contradict this new retcon with Parallel Lives.

BTW, I would read ASM #189-193 any day, I can't say the same about any five consecutive issues from Conway.

[Scott Taylor]

Wolfman had his issues. He was pretty good at character interactions and just layouts/working with artists to tell a cooperative story. But his overarching plotting and ideas left a bit to be desired. Looking back at a lot of the Nightwing-Starfire relationship and Terry/Donna now, a lot of it is downright cringeworthy. That he invented the Black Cat is great, sure, but it was definitely others who perfected her. You could say the same about Deathstroke.

I think Wolfman's best contribution to Spidey was his closure of the burglar story. You kind of have to suffer through the rest of his run to get that one gold nugget. His character work with the supporting cast and Spidey, such as it was, was well-written but ignored tons of years of buildup.

So it's the same thing with Felicia. I think Jed Mckay will be a third after Stern and Mantlo since he's making her work as an ongoing (and a reasonably successful and entertaining one to boot).

Slott undid tons of Felicia work with his writing of her, though. He also rewound Peter back many years just in his ability to relate to women in general, MJ and Felicia included.

[Ozymandias]

The burglar story? Yeah, that one was interesting, but it came as the culmination of a story which included the first in several deaths-of-May. Not my cup of tea.

The earlier Titans were a bit green, but he had a good stretch from issue twenty one on. Not for anything, they commissioned him with Crisis.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I think Wolfman's best contribution to Spidey was his closure of the burglar story. You kind of have to suffer through the rest of his run to get that one gold nugget.

I actually don't understand why people like that issue. To me it's a very cheap kind of story and resolution. The burglar was a random guy that Spider-Man let go when he could have stopped it. That's it.

Bringing him back and making him a villain and adding backstory and context to Uncle Ben's death felt unnecessary and trite, and it cheapens AF#15 somewhat. I mean seriously the Burglar attacked the Parker house because of buried treasure underneath there?

[Ozymandias]

I actually don't understand why people like that issue. To me it's a very cheap kind of story and resolution. The burglar was a random guy that Spider-Man let go when he could have stopped it. That's it.

Bringing him back and making him a villain and adding backstory and context to Uncle Ben's death felt unnecessary and trite, and it cheapens AF#15 somewhat. I mean seriously the Burglar attacked the Parker house because of buried treasure underneath there?

I don't see it as making AF#15 less. It says that he could've stopped something bad that was coming his way, but missed his opportunity. I like that better than the staggering coincidence of a random encounter leading to another, I mean, how many deaths happened in the neighborhood afterwards? I recall it being rather dull trough the 60's.

[Scott Taylor]

The burglar story didn't need any closure to it, but it was something I appreciated when reading it just the same. Doesn't change the fact that Peter still let his Uncle Ben down and paid the price for it. The buried treasure thing isn't all that different from Aunt May inheriting a nuclear power plant in Conway's run. Just story devices, unimportant to anything else.

Its a better story device than a brick or a red pigeon!

[Mister Mets]

Some news that may be relevant to JMS fans is that the comic book imprint AWA is doing a humble bundle with their first offerings.

https://www.humblebundle.com/books/h...a-studio-books

Fifteen bucks get you multiple TPBs worth of content, as well as extras including JMS's scripts for his mini-series The Resistance, about a world affected in the aftermath of a supervirus.

You did say JMS is one of the “Better writers on Spider-Man” While I admit to being tough on JMS, most of us can agree that he does not make the Top 3 writers of Spider-Man.

I'm not sure about that. He does seem to have his fans, even if I would rate a few higher.