Page 4 of 17 FirstFirst 1234567814 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 247
  1. #46
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    9,358

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    It wouldn't be surprised if "get away from the Clone Saga" was an editorial mandate back then
    When JMS came over, there wasn't really a mandate as such. Quesada had just taken over as EIC and it was him who brought JMS to Marvel and gave him the gig of writing ASM.

    And in those early years 2001-2004 or so, Quesada basically just hung back and stayed out of anyone's way (not coincidentally this also happens to be the best period in his entire time as EIC).

    Quesada just took over from Bob Harras who basically left Marvel in disgrace. He was unpopular with staff and with the Spider-Man team before. So Quesada coming in following the dark cloud left by his predecessor and being imported in as a young newcomer to the top job didn't exactly have the clout and equity at the time. For instance, Quesada didn't think Ultimate Marvel would work and it was Bill Jemas who went ahead and commissioned Bendis to write it.

    JMS said a lot of times that he had a free reign for most of his early run. That changed later on.

  2. #47
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    NY/NJ Area
    Posts
    3,486

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Agreed, except I didn't see those cliché moments you were talking about. And yeah, the Spidey/Ezekiel/Morlun fight was interesting with Peter's narration; I basically took it as the series getting away from "Clone Saga".
    Yeah, sorry bro. When I mean cliche is I've seen similar things like those things before. Referring back to the Galactus gag, it reminded me of those moments where the protagonist is holding on to the car/train/spaceship/monster/whatever and yelling "stop this crazy thing!" It's funny, but it's been done.

    As for getting away from the Clone Saga, yeah, those issues were still in the air. But, it reminded me that JMS could be loose with continuity. I could accept (and even enjoy) that to a point. For instance, I'm reminded of the storyline where Hydra collected the DNA of all of the Avengers and made their clone Avengers. An attempt at world domination ensued. Spidey and the rest of the Avengers had to deal with them. By itself, the story is cool. But at the same time, I believe there were other Hydra things going on in other stories, like in the New Avengers or Wolverine titles at the time that really didn't fit with what was going on with Amazing Spider-Man.

    So, there were moments like that which I could overlook, but still notice.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  3. #48
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    9,358

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    As for getting away from the Clone Saga, yeah, those issues were still in the air. But, it reminded me that JMS could be loose with continuity. I could accept (and even enjoy) that to a point. For instance, I'm reminded of the storyline where Hydra collected the DNA of all of the Avengers and made their clone Avengers. An attempt at world domination ensued. Spidey and the rest of the Avengers had to deal with them. By itself, the story is cool. But at the same time, I believe there were other Hydra things going on in other stories, like in the New Avengers or Wolverine titles at the time that really didn't fit with what was going on with Amazing Spider-Man.

    So, there were moments like that which I could overlook, but still notice.
    That kind of co-ordination across titles isn't JMS' job. That's down to the respective editors and in turn the Editor-in-Chief. Under Quesada, that level of continuity co-ordination wasn't really done or overseen most of the time. You saw this again with CIVIL WAR which was total chaos across the board

  4. #49
    Incredible Member Grapeweasel's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    534

    Default

    JMS had good little ideas and bad big ideas.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    2,571

    Default

    Not all of it, but a lot of the JMS hate seems to boil down to Sins Past, OMD, and the Totem thing.

    Just pointing out that Sins Past and OMD put together make less than 1/5 of the run and are bad mostly due to editorial interference, the second one being a story he vehemently resisted entirely. It seems absurd and unfair to judge an entire almost-decade long run by Sins Past or OMD. It is the "But Venezuela!" of JMS discussions.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 09-04-2020 at 01:37 PM.

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Venezuela
    Posts
    8,641

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Not all of it, but a lot of the JMS hate seems to boil down to Sins Past, OMD, and the Totem thing. Two of those are bad stories with lots of editorial interference, the second one which he vehemently resisted. It seems absurd and unfair to judge an almost-decade long run by Sins Past or OMD. It is the "But Venezuela!" of Spider-Man discussions.
    Well the Totem thing was a big part of his run, it was handled in my opinion (in that first half) but i know that there are some fans that dislike even the small implication of magic having anything to do with Spider-Man origins or magic elements in an Spider-Man story.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
    Nobody does it better by Jeff Loveness

    "I am Thou, Thou Art I"
    Persona

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    2,571

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Well the Totem thing was a big part of his run, it was handled in my opinion (in that first half) but i know that there are some fans that dislike even the small implication of magic having anything to do with Spider-Man origins or magic elements in an Spider-Man story.
    Aside from it only being Ezekiel's theory (even in The Other, you could argue Peter was just experiencing a secondary mutation and his visions were just hallucinations), the idea that there is something mythical about Spider-Man is a conventional and frankly very "duh" idea. Spider-Man is literally the Anansi of our time. He is magical in the same way rock and roll is. This isn't really a revolutionary idea to point out. Other writers like Grant Morrison would have said the same thing if they were working on Spider-Man.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 09-04-2020 at 01:49 PM.

  8. #53
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    9,358

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Not all of it, but a lot of the JMS hate seems to boil down to Sins Past, OMD, and the Totem thing. Two of those are bad mostly due to editorial interference, the second one being a story he vehemently resisted entirely. It seems absurd and unfair to judge an entire almost-decade long run by Sins Past or OMD. It is the "But Venezuela!" of JMS discussions.
    Grant Morrison's New X-men run which happened at the same time is considered a landmark classic by X-Men fans and Marvel fans in general and yet nobody has defended Morrison's concluding arcs -- Planet X or Here Comes Tomorrow as high points of his stories. And those runs were entirely Morrison's plan and vision. If Morrison had his way, Magneto would be unusable as a villain or a character in any shape after him. His concluding arc, Here Comes Tomorrow doesn't have much to recommend it either.

    Remember that in Spider-Man history, you only really had three writers doing extended runs* -- Michelinie, JMS, Slott -- and of the lot, only Dan Slott can be said to have ended his run on his own terms. Michelinie was frustrated near the end and left in low spirits, JMS didn't get to conclude on his terms either. It's difficult for any writer with an extended run to be good all the time. What counts is the strength of their best work.

    I would hold JMS responsible for Sins' Past. And he himself has admitted as such numerous times. He also said that The Other was an editorial mandate as well but you could take him to task for execution. OMD though is entirely Quesada's story. JMS agreed to do it as a favor to Quesada even if he disagreed with it, thinking that he could still do a good story if he had his way. But Quesada multiple times ignored his suggestions and ideas. Stuff like Aunt May getting shot immediately leading to OMD only for that to be padded out longer to accommodate the reveal of Peter's identity (which as JMS noted, killed the dramatic tension), or MJ making the deal when it should have been Peter. Quesada telling him he could have retconned the story the Drug Trilogy and so allowing Gwen to survive, only for his (typical) lack of coordination to futze that up.

    I think JMS should have left with Back in Black and told Quesada to write OMD entirely on his own.


    * Some might add Stan Lee but his collaborations with Ditko, and then later with Romita Sr. are quite iffy to quantify as a single run or the work of a single writer.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    2,571

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Grant Morrison's New X-men run which happened at the same time is considered a landmark classic by X-Men fans and Marvel fans in general and yet nobody has defended Morrison's concluding arcs -- Planet X or Here Comes Tomorrow as high points of his stories. And those runs were entirely Morrison's plan and vision. If Morrison had his way, Magneto would be unusable as a villain or a character in any shape after him. His concluding arc, Here Comes Tomorrow doesn't have much to recommend it either.

    Remember that in Spider-Man history, you only really had three writers doing extended runs* -- Michelinie, JMS, Slott -- and of the lot, only Dan Slott can be said to have ended his run on his own terms. Michelinie was frustrated near the end and left in low spirits, JMS didn't get to conclude on his terms either. It's difficult for any writer with an extended run to be good all the time. What counts is the strength of their best work.

    I would hold JMS responsible for Sins' Past. And he himself has admitted as such numerous times. He also said that The Other was an editorial mandate as well but you could take him to task for execution. OMD though is entirely Quesada's story. JMS agreed to do it as a favor to Quesada even if he disagreed with it, thinking that he could still do a good story if he had his way. But Quesada multiple times ignored his suggestions and ideas. Stuff like Aunt May getting shot immediately leading to OMD only for that to be padded out longer to accommodate the reveal of Peter's identity (which as JMS noted, killed the dramatic tension), or MJ making the deal when it should have been Peter. Quesada telling him he could have retconned the story the Drug Trilogy and so allowing Gwen to survive, only for his (typical) lack of coordination to futze that up.

    I think JMS should have left with Back in Black and told Quesada to write OMD entirely on his own.


    * Some might add Stan Lee but his collaborations with Ditko, and then later with Romita Sr. are quite iffy to quantify as a single run or the work of a single writer.
    Even then, Sins Past and The Other aren't the bread and butter of the JMS run. The first half with JRJR is with some parts from Civil War and maybe Back in Black. That is what he was mostly interested in doing. And even if we include Sins Past and The Other as main JMS stories, on a technical level they're not poorly written (minus the flashbacks in Sins Past).
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 09-04-2020 at 02:08 PM.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    4,392

    Default

    To no specific person:

    Even though I dislike the run, I feel like focusing too much on Sins Past and OMD is really cheap.

    If Sins Past and OMD were the only things you disliked about the run, you're not saying much.

  11. #56
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    9,358

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Even then, Sins Past and The Other aren't the bread and butter of the JMS run. The first half with JRJR is with some parts from Civil War and maybe Back in Black. That is what he was mostly interested in doing.And even if we include Sins Past and The Other as main JMS stories, on a technical level they're not poorly written (minus the flashbacks in Sins Past).
    Agreed.

    At the end of the day, JMS' run is quite respected and influential. Many young writers like Chip Zdarsky among others said they got back to reading Spider-Man after dropping out during the Clone Saga on account of him. Donny Cates is another professed fan. As is Kevin Feige who is an overall JMS fan, citing his run on Thor, his Civil War tie-ins, and his Spider-Man run as reference points for his work. Stories like "Doomed Affairs" are now considered classics, with a recent Cosmic Ghost Rider story doing an extended homage to it.

    You know one of my favorite bits that JMS did with Spider-Man and Mary Jane is his non-canon Silver Surfer Requiem, where each issue had Surfer meet a different hero and the second issue is with Spider-Man. The art is by Esad Ribic (of Gorr the God Butcher and SW'2015 fame) and it looks great.

  12. #57
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,421

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Not all of it, but a lot of the JMS hate seems to boil down to Sins Past, OMD, and the Totem thing.

    Just pointing out that Sins Past and OMD put together make less than 1/5 of the run and are bad mostly due to editorial interference, the second one being a story he vehemently resisted entirely. It seems absurd and unfair to judge an entire almost-decade long run by Sins Past or OMD. It is the "But Venezuela!" of JMS discussions.
    If you gave me a bowl that was 4/5 spaghetti and meatballs and one 1/5 cow manure, I still wouldn't want to eat it, even if the chef swears he didn't want to add the cow manure.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    2,462

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    So according to you anyone writing in a sophisticated way makes those characters sound old? Isn't it just the case that JMS writes that way?

    And in any case...Peter Parker's a science student who came to college on scholarship and is quite brilliant. Mary Jane Watson is an artistic woman who studied psychology and loves theater and film. So of course both of them would sound sophisticated.



    Attachment 100352

    Wow, indeed. You totally misread the scene and moment.

    In that scene, Spider-Man goes out to vent a building that is revealed in the following panel to be a "condemned" abandoned building scheduled for a controlled demolition. In the scene right after on the next day, a construction foreman calls out the boys for a hard day only for the building to fall down thanks to Spidey...and he says jubilantly, "lunch". Spider-Man vented his frustrations and also provided help to construction workers at the same time.



    Yes we all know how his characterization and portrayal is at all inconsistent with what came before.



    Well there aren't actually spider-demons in that story. Just a giant spider.



    Being a chosen of the Spider-Totem doesn't mean that Peter Parker has some destiny or anything, it merely emphasizes that Peter is the character who will always be persecuted by powerful people and he has the spider will escape, defy, and beguile them. Nothing fundamental was subtracted from Spider-Man by JMS, he just added to stuff that's already there.
    Nothing he did in his run? OMD says hello. Peter does not always have to be persecuted by Powerful people. It is writers who want Peter to be a punching bag, a kid or comedy relief who created that situation. Maybe the thing I like most about Spencer’s run is seeing the importance of Peter on Spider-Man.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    2,571

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    If you gave me a bowl that was 4/5 spaghetti and meatballs and one 1/5 cow manure, I still wouldn't want to eat it, even if the chef swears he didn't want to add the cow manure.
    But if the cow manure wasn't mixed in with the other ingredients, it would be easy to remove or not touch so that it doesn't ruin the rest of the meal. And in the case of the cow manure that is OMD, it is right at the end of the plate so you can just scrape it off.

  15. #60
    BANNED WebSlingWonder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    2,149

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    If you gave me a bowl that was 4/5 spaghetti and meatballs and one 1/5 cow manure, I still wouldn't want to eat it, even if the chef swears he didn't want to add the cow manure.
    That's such a loaded analogy that it's not even funny. No restaurant in their right mind would give you cow manure; likewise, no writer thinks their story is 100% bad - they try the best they can. Comic writers are no different. Like Revolutionary_Jack pointed out above, those stories ("OMD" and "The Other") were all mostly editorial. The only one you can hold him accountable for is "Sins Past" (which, btw, he formally apologized for in Marvel Comics #1000). If you're simply saying that the back half of his run, or at least three stories in that back half, ruin the entire run, then I really feel bad for you.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •